Hard IFR

[jasona900]

After sharing stories with a buddy, we realized we had different definitions of what "hard IFR" is.  His definition, put simply was that hard IFR would include weather conditions that would result in an approach down to near, or at mins.  My response was that we shoot practice approaches with foggles to mins all the time... why should it be any different in actual clouds?  Personally, I rarely have the opportunity to fly an actual approach down to mins, because of MY definition of hard IFR.  My definition includes the potential for imbedded thunderstorms, other convective activity, or icing forecasted along my route..  Like most people, that weather keeps me on the ground.  But if we had a foggy day like this morning in Omaha, so long as it was above mins, I would have no problem going. I'm not worried about mountains here in the Midwest..but given the same conditions in say, Colorado, I would invoke higher, personal minimums

So my question to the group is... what do you consider hard IFR? 

[gsengle]

After sharing stories with a buddy, we realized we had different definitions of what "hard IFR" is.  His definition, put simply was that hard IFR would include weather conditions that would result in an approach down to near, or at mins.  My response was that we shoot practice approaches with foggles to mins all the time... why should it be any different in actual clouds?  Personally, I rarely have the opportunity to fly an actual approach down to mins, because of MY definition of hard IFR.  My definition includes the potential for imbedded thunderstorms, other convective activity, or icing forecasted along my route..  Like most people, that weather keeps me on the ground.  But if we had a foggy day like this morning in Omaha, so long as it was above mins, I would have no problem going. I'm not worried about mountains here in the Midwest..but given the same conditions in say, Colorado, I would invoke higher, personal minimums

So my question to the group is... what do you consider hard IFR? 

 

Hard IFR has always meant to me “total IMC”, as in you don’t see a thing. Not necessarily to mins. But when in total IMC for a while that’s “hard ifr”. Not because it’s hard as in difficult but because it’s total.

 

 

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[RLCarter]

In the soup for the duration

[Ftlausa]

Persistent IMC conditions, but not necessarily to minimums.  

[Marauder]

And definition of “Hardest IFR”: Flying it IMC the whole time without a second pilot or an autopilot.


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[gsengle]

A “hard left” isn’t a difficult one, it’s a particularly complete one.


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[Shadrach]

"Hard IFR" is not really a term I am familiar with. "Low IFR" gives you the least amount of options should you have an instrument or mechanical failure.  If I were to define "hard IFR" it would involve flying a minimally equipped, high performance piston twin in "Low IFR".  Single pilot ops in something like a C421 is a lot to manage. In fact, with an inop AP, I am trying to think of busier scenario. 

[gsengle]

"Hard IFR" is not really a term I am familiar with. "Low IFR" gives you the least amount of options should you have an instrument or mechanical failure.  If I were to define "hard IFR" it would involve flying a minimally equipped, high performance piston twin in "Low IFR".  Single pilot ops in something like a C421 is a lot to manage. In fact, with an inop AP, I am trying to think of busier scenario. 

The hard in this term doesn’t really refer to the difficulty meaning of hard...


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[ArtVandelay]

I think of hard IFR includes embedded TS and heavy rain.



Tom

[DXB]

To me, hard IFR means being in the soup for continuous stretches and/or shooting approaches in IMC beyond the FAF. 

1 hour ago, jasona900 said:

After sharing stories with a buddy, we realized we had different definitions of what "hard IFR" is.  His definition, put simply was that hard IFR would include weather conditions that would result in an approach down to near, or at mins.  My response was that we shoot practice approaches with foggles to mins all the time... why should it be any different in actual clouds? 

It is WAY WAY different in the clouds than under the foggles!  The brain is very efficient at latching on to subtle visual references under the foggles to discern the correct spatial orientation  in collaboration with the inner ear balance organs.  In true absence of any visual reference in the clouds, signals from the balance system are radically misinterpreted by the brain.  The two should never be equated. 

[Hank]

In the soup is fine, but NOT with it embedded TS nearby! In that case, I much prefer to stay visual.

My longest flight in IMC so far was KHTW --> BNA, in IMC both ways from ~30 seconds after rotation until less than 5nm out in the ILS. The trip home, I shot the ILS into KHTS, broke out about 2000 msl, cancelled and went home visual. A little over 2 hours each way, on the ground in Nashville most of the day.

Didn't think it was anything special, that's why I worked hard getting Instrument rated, and worked extra to be safe traveling rather than just to pass the checkride. 

Also flew back from KFXE to WV, with IFR / IMC departure, through layers to on top at 9000 msl headed up Florida; tops rose around me and somewhere north of Orlando the bottoms rose past me, too. Stopped in GA for fuel and had VMC the rest of the way home. 

The important part was stable conditions, no thunderboomers around and none forecast. 

[Bob - S50]

My take.

There is a difference between 'hard' IFR and 'difficult' IFR.  To me, the first means in the soup for the majority of the flight.  The second implies other conditions that complicate the matter such as no autopilot, solo, low minimums, route changes, equipment failure, etc.

Hank mentioned his longest in the soup flight.  My most complete in the soup flight was in an F106.  Weather was too low to allow us to do a formation takeoff so we took off 20 second radar trail.  That means I released brakes 20 seconds after lead, entered the soup about the departure end, picked lead up on radar about 3 miles in front of me and followed him to the area that way.  Once in the warning area we split up and both climbed to FL350 looking to break out on top.  Neither of us ever did so we spent the next hour+ running intercepts on each other in the weather.  For the last one I joined up to a 3 mile radar trail again and followed him back to the base.  The next time I saw lead was when I broke out at 300' as lead was turning off at the end.

Ah, to be young and crazy again.

[Shadrach]

57 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

The hard in this term doesn’t really refer to the difficulty meaning of hard...


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I was being a bit tongue and cheek.  I think the term is subjective and maybe kind of silly given that it's used to describe weather which has more to do with conditions than rules.

[gsengle]

I was being a bit tongue and cheek.  I think the term is subjective and maybe kind of silly given that it's used to describe weather which has more to do with conditions than rules.

I’ve also heard hard IMC, which would to your point be more apt!


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[M016576]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

My take.

There is a difference between 'hard' IFR and 'difficult' IFR.  To me, the first means in the soup for the majority of the flight.  The second implies other conditions that complicate the matter such as no autopilot, solo, low minimums, route changes, equipment failure, etc.

Hank mentioned his longest in the soup flight.  My most complete in the soup flight was in an F106.  Weather was too low to allow us to do a formation takeoff so we took off 20 second radar trail.  That means I released brakes 20 seconds after lead, entered the soup about the departure end, picked lead up on radar about 3 miles in front of me and followed him to the area that way.  Once in the warning area we split up and both climbed to FL350 looking to break out on top.  Neither of us ever did so we spent the next hour+ running intercepts on each other in the weather.  For the last one I joined up to a 3 mile radar trail again and followed him back to the base.  The next time I saw lead was when I broke out at 300' as lead was turning off at the end.

Ah, to be young and crazy again.

I had some days like that in the F-18... totally “normal” at the time... now I look back- I’m happy to be done with that!

[N201MKTurbo]

I’m with the heavy weather crowd. 

In the soup from takeoff to landing is just IFR. 

Weather that is trying to kill you is hard IFR.

Flying an approach to minimums is easy.

flying an approach to minimums with a gusty 70 knot wind and severe turbulence is hard IFR!

[Ned Gravel]

7 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’m with the heavy weather crowd. 

In the soup from takeoff to landing is just IFR. 

Weather that is trying to kill you is hard IFR.

Flying an approach to minimums is easy.

flying an approach to minimums with a gusty 70 knot wind and severe turbulence is hard IFR!

I am with the other guys.  TS or anything embedded (TCU or ACC) is a strategic no-go decision for me.  Then comes “hard IFR” where it is only soup, perhaps bumpy but not dangerous - my favourite being nimbo stratus (benign and dark) but relatively safe ceilings.  Then comes “IFR” in and out of the soup - almost certainly bumpy because it normally comes from cumulus buildup.

With Foreflight and ADS-B, I can watch the METARS of potential diversions all the way to the destination when in hard IFR.  Easy to plan for those the meet my own minima, just in case.

Hard IFR is not hard, but it is complete loss of visual reference to the ground.  

But that is just me.  

[jaylw314]

My impression is that with "hard IFR" people traditionally have been talking about sustained or persistent IMC, presumably with the idea this is more difficult or risky than intermittent IMC because of the higher workload in IMC and the lack of respite.

Obviously, having a functional autopilot mitigates this to a certain degree.  The longest continuous IMC I've been in was from Palo Alto to Santa Monica, about 2+ hours with some icing risk and rerouting tossed in.  never saw the ground except for the 5 minutes around takeoff and landing.  I hand flew the first 45 minutes, took a break with the autopilot for another 45, then hand flew the remainder.  I felt pretty good afterwards, but I imagine that without the autopilot, I would have been dead to the world for a couple days

[N201MKTurbo]

I don't know about workload, I did most of my IFR flying back in the day with my M20F. It only had a PC wing leveler. 

If it is solid IFR, you have very little to worry about, all you have to do is keep the plane right side up. You don't have to look for traffic or anything like that. There is no beautiful or interesting scenery to distract you, just grey...

[Jim Peace]

I have heard of low IFR and you will see that on some weather apps.....but hard IFR is a term that came straight out of Kentucky inbreading...there is no meaning...

[HXG]

There is a difference with foggles practice to minimums and flying actual IMC. This is especially true for new IFR pilots or rusty pilots with limited hand flying in IMC. Sure, many pilots get their IFR certificate with little to no IMC time and do fine in actual IMC, but it doesn’t go well for some.

 I recommend inexperienced IFR pilots get some real IMC experience with an instructor before launching into IMC and then work your way to lower personal minimums and more prolonged IMC flight. Staying proficient with foggles is great, but I’ve seen foggle proficient pilots become unsettled in actual IMC to the point where they have trouble holding altitudes and headings, and bank excessively as they enter IMC.

[HXG]

I missed DXB’s post which I agree with. 

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, HXG said:

There is a difference with foggles practice to minimums and flying actual IMC.

Yep, you can always pull the foggles off if needed. I’ve also heard if you get nervous during actual IMC to put the foggles on to keep you from looking up and seeing the soup

[0TreeLemur]

As @RLCarter wrote, I have that problem shooting practice approaches with X-Plane.   The simulator keeps showing cloud-like textures zooming by in seemingly random directions.    Makes me want to puke.  I wonder if there is a way to just make it gray screen with no visual cues whatsoever like being in real IFR?

[jaylw314]

8 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

Yep, you can always pull the foggles off if needed. I’ve also heard if you get nervous during actual IMC to put the foggles on to keep you from looking up and seeing the soup

That comment made me think about the JooJanta "Peril Sensitive Sunglasses" from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.  They encourage the wearer to have relaxed attitude to danger by turning pitch black at the first sign of trouble to keep you from seeing it