Landing speed

[RZimmanck]

Hi everyone. I have about 30 hours in an M20J and feel very comfortable landing. Most of my training and flying has been with one to two passengers and mostly full fuel on local flights. Landing at about 70K over the numbers has resulted in mostly very good landing. Today was my first time flying the plane solo. Tanks were about 3/4 full. With the exact same airspeeds I had a significant bounce that was unexpected. I was able to recover the landing without incident. This got me wondering if experienced Mooney pilots significant adjust their landing/approach speeds based on fuel on board or the amount of passengers that have on board. Any suggestions? Thanks.

[Hank]

Try approximating your weight on landing. If it's easier, guess how much below gross you are (takeoff weight minus fuel burned, then count by hundreds up to gross). Then reduce your speed over the numbers by 5 knots for every 300 lb. you are below gross. This works well for my C, except I use 5 mph. 

Yes, this will vary for every landing, especially when traveling long distance. 

Why? Because stall speed is lower at lower weight, and you don't want to touch down above stall speed. If you're too far above stall speed, you will be too flat and bounce; even faster, you may hit nosewheel first and start PIO . . . . .

Look up Don Kaye and order his Landing video.

[Bob_Belville]

Yeah, the proper landing speed in a Mooney is pretty sensitive to the weight. 

But even 5-10 knots fast does not need to mean a bounce... it does mean you need to hold her off (in ground effect) until the speed bleeds off and she's ready to land. Shouldn't take more that 5000'. 

For what it's worth, in formation flying for Caravan we cross the threshold at 90 kts, no flaps. 

[Marauder]

Hi everyone. I have about 30 hours in an M20J and feel very comfortable landing. Most of my training and flying has been with one to two passengers and mostly full fuel on local flights. Landing at about 70K over the numbers has resulted in mostly very good landing. Today was my first time flying the plane solo. Tanks were about 3/4 full. With the exact same airspeeds I had a significant bounce that was unexpected. I was able to recover the landing without incident. This got me wondering if experienced Mooney pilots significant adjust their landing/approach speeds based on fuel on board or the amount of passengers that have on board. Any suggestions? Thanks.

 

 

Try landing a few knots slower (67 to 68 KIAS). And make sure you hold it off. Letting it settle into the runway before it is ready to land will cause a porpoise.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[carusoam]

Wait...

1) Stall Speed is everything for landing...

2) Stall speed varies with weight and bank angle... since landing requires 0 bank angle, speed needs to match the weight...

3) Ross usually will give the details of when to use... 1.3 X stall speed, 1.2 X stall speed, and 1.1 X stall speed...

4) Don’t feel bad if you didn’t recognize these details from primary training... trainers don’t usually get loaded with fuel and people and depart on 500nm X-country flights...

5) With a Mooney, you can learn to fly with a high level of precision, because you can...

6) You are in a great place for getting additional training... MAPA has the PPP training that is a really great way to improve... a bunch of Mooney CFII and Mooney pilots discussing these type of details and more... through IFR strategies...

7) Some day, you get the opportunity to really lose speed control... they invented the Go Around for this....

8) forcing the plane to land is an act of futility... ending with at least one bounce...

9) two bounces is a sign a GA is in order... three bounces typically includes a prop strike...

10) Get speed control.  Get comfortable with what it takes to have speed control...

11) It May take improving your visual scan while flying final... ASI, our the window...  ASI, out the window... altimeter, other window... don’t forget the other window, a hint of altitude change there...

12) Don Kaye has some great video of Mooney Landing Technique... it comes with one super important chart... the chart alone is worth the cost of the video course... 

13) Other things that come with the weight challenge... temperature, cross winds, gusts, flaps, more flaps, less flaps... and distractions...

 

PP thoughts only... not a CFI... just stating great opportunities to get some awesome Mooney training...

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

When I first got my J model it felt like the airspeed indicator was indicating a bit high, so I was landing at about 75-80kts indicated, which felt better.   When I had the indicator overhauled they said it was actually reading about 15 kts high, so I was landing a lot slower than I thought I was.   My landings were better then, I've never quite adjusted back.     

[mark21m20c]

If you have a headwind of 15kts gust to 30kts how much speed should you add to approach speed ??? 

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, mark21m20c said:

If you have a headwind of 15kts gust to 30kts how much speed should you add to approach speed ??? 

The gusts are 15 knots, so add half of that. I'd aim for 5mph plus a little bit, but less than 10 mph extra.

Every knot of extra speed, held off for the stall, is an extra 100 feet of float. This is due to having a smooth, aerodynamic design and short landing gear that puts the wing close to the ground. 

[Bob - S50]

I'm a geek.  I have a '78J and calculate a final approach speed for every landing.

I start with 58 KIAS for zero payload and add 1.5 knots for every 100 lbs.  So solo (200 lbs for me, stuff that's always in the plane, and my gear) and 15 gallons of gas would be 300 lbs.  3 x 1.5 = 4.5.  I would round up to 5 and add to 58 to get 63 KIAS on final.  If I were to fly with my wife, our baggage, and land with 30 gallons I might call that 700 lbs of payload.  7 x 1.5 = 10.5.  Round up to 11 and add 58 to get 69 KIAS.

Or you could just call it 65 KIAS when light and 70 when heavy.

[Andy95W]

3 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

 

Or you could just call it 65 KIAS when light and 70 when heavy.

I agree 100% with your analysis, procedure, and technique.

But my guess is there are legions of Mooney owners who are going to tell you that you're flying too slow on final and that you should add 5-10 knots "for safety".

[Bob - S50]

Just now, Andy95W said:

I agree 100% with your analysis, procedure, and technique.

But my guess is there are legions of Mooney owners who are going to tell you that you're flying too slow on final and that you should add 5-10 knots "for safety".

Probably more non-Mooney owners would tell me that than Mooney owners.

[Hank]

That method works. But it's easier for me to go the other direction. Me and full fuel leaves almost 500 lb.; Add wife & stuff, call it 350 ; 9 gph x 6 lb = 54 lb/hr.; two hours' fuel is 100 lb. gone, so call it 450. That's 300 x 1-1/2, so 5 x 1-1/2 mph speed reduction from 75 mph short final, or a little under 70.

See my previous post about extra speed if you "add some fir safety." All that does is dissipate runway from in front of you to behind you . . . .

[Andy95W]

Hank, I completely agree with your method and I'm currently using a version of it (thanks, BTW). You and I use MPH, my guess is that 65-70 knots in an M20J will make some people cringe that it is too slow.

[McMooney]

keep it simple, just land somewhere around 80mph, hold it off till she falls out the sky.  seriously hold it off and it'll squeak down the run way like no tomorrow.

Edited March 27, 2019 by McMooney

[Andy95W]

That is my preferred method when landing at runways with more than 5,000 available.  My home airport has a landing distance of about 2200 feet.  If I use that method, I'll be off the end and in a swamp.

[mark21m20c]

New to mooney flying ,just trying to learn . We use to add 1/2 headwind and all of guest up to 15 kts regardless of weight in transport type aircraft. That sounds like it may be to much speed in a mooney????

[gsxrpilot]

Just like any other piston single... pull the power to idle and hold it off the runway. It will land when its ready. If you go past half way and still floating, power up and go around. You'll figure it out.

I'm not the best pilot by any stretch, but I can land my Mooney every time with barely a perceptible touch down every time. Just pull the power to idle and hold it off.

I have no idea of the speed and don't even look at the ASI. She'll land when she's ready to land.

[ArtVandelay]

I agree 100% with your analysis, procedure, and technique.
But my guess is there are legions of Mooney owners who are going to tell you that you're flying too slow on final and that you should add 5-10 knots "for safety".

That is too slow for final....but fine when over the numbers.
You don’t need to fly the entire final approach at such a slow speed?



Tom

[Bob - S50]

13 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

That is too slow for final....but fine when over the numbers.
You don’t need to fly the entire final approach at such a slow speed?



Tom

When I'm flying an instrument approach I use gear down, half flaps, and about 80 KIAS to minimums.  At minimums I go to idle, full flaps, and slow to my previously stated speed.  Using my 'too slow' speed I pull power approaching the threshold, start my flare early, and do a gradual rather than end swapping flare.  I rarely hear the stall horn even though I try to hold it off until I do.  I usually use something between 1700 and 2400 feet of runway with little to no braking.

For the normal pattern I'm at about final +15 on base until I turn final and then slow to my final approach speed.

[ArtVandelay]

8 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

When I'm flying an instrument approach I use gear down, half flaps, and about 80 KIAS to minimums.  At minimums I go to idle, full flaps, and slow to my previously stated speed.  Using my 'too slow' speed I pull power approaching the threshold, start my flare early, and do a gradual rather than end swapping flare.  I rarely hear the stall horn even though I try to hold it off until I do.  I usually use something between 1700 and 2400 feet of runway with little to no braking.

For the normal pattern I'm at about final +15 on base until I turn final and then slow to my final approach speed.

I do everything you do, same result, only difference is use 90K instead of 80 because that’s what I would use if doing a VOR approach (timed), so I try to be consistent. I’ve started doing VFR approaches the same way, again for consistency.

[Hank]

4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

That is too slow for final....but fine when over the numbers.
You don’t need to fly the entire final approach at such a slow speed?

Downwind and base at 90mph, roll wings level on final at 85, slow to my calculated speed on short final; throttle to idle when I know I've got the field made. Hold her off until she lands on her own, generally with or just after the stall beep.

On approach, 90 knots (105 mph) until I break out, then slow to calculated speed on 1/2 mile final if able; pull throttle to idle when I know I've got the field made. Hold her off until she lands on her own, generally with or just after the stall beep. The faster I'm going, the further out I pull the throttle, although fields with approaches tend to be longer than my 3200' home.

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Hank, I completely agree with your method and I'm currently using a version of it (thanks, BTW). You and I use MPH, my guess is that 65-70 knots in an M20J will make some people cringe that it is too slow.

I cringe that 65-70kts is too fast. Those are the mph numbers I shoot for over the threshold when light weight.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Shadrach

[Wistarmo]

I have been flying the same M20J for 26 years; I don't do complicated math on final approach.  I enter the flare at 65kts when solo, and at 5kts for each additional person on board.

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, mark21m20c said:

If you have a headwind of 15kts gust to 30kts how much speed should you add to approach speed ??? 

I don’t really have a hard and fast rule. It depends on the length of the runway, .If winds are strong (20kts or more) I bump my my final approach speed to ~ 1.4Vso for a long runways. People forget that 1.2Vso in an F or J model is 65kias at GROSS. I still try to be close to 1.2Vso by the threshold.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

14 minutes ago, Wistarmo said:

I have been flying the same M20J for 26 years; I don't do complicated math on final approach.  I enter the flare at 65kts when solo, and at 5kts for each additional person on board.

Well you’ve got a few years of Mooney flying me and a heavier version of the same airfrrame. Still, doing simple math at my computer tells me that you’re faster than optimal. 1.2Vso for your airframe’s 2900MGOW is 67KIAS so 65KIAS seems fast for solo ops. Adding 5kts for each passenger is a lot, especially all the way to the flare.