Panel upgrade on '62 M20C

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

I am in 21st Century and have quite a few 21st Century things (discussed on the forum) in my plane which has a 19th century electrical system (as does yours).  So one I am not a big fan of all electric and nor single sources of vital things. Electric is better than vacuum for sure, but vacuum is a separate and discrete system that provides redundancy for very little cost.   

I have nothing against the 750 I just believe the dual 430 set up the OP has is very safe and gives a lot of options as is.  Replacing one 430 with a 650 is a good idea as well.  I don’t though see any value in the 750 other then a larger screen which there a lot cheaper and better ways of getting a bigger screen.  

Let me know how you change the remote transponder or audio panel when the 750 fails.  

I have both the 750 and 650.  They're both great GPSs.  So are the 530 and 430.  But the GTNs are so much more advanced, are so much easier to use, and have so much more capability to add even more advanced features than their predecessors, that they should be the GPSs of choice over spending money to install an earlier generation one.

Since I think having a transponder is important, I chose not to remote it, and just put in the GTX 335 which has a couple of nice additional features over the GTX 330ES.  

My airplane is now all glass and all electric.  Gone is the dependance on sometimes unreliable mechanical instruments with much higher failure rates, including mechanical gyros and vacuum pumps.  But an unlikely but complete electrical failure would not be much of an issue.  The backup ESI 500 PFD with several hours backup independent battery, the yoke mounted Aera 796 with Navigation and XM weather and radio and 4 hours of independent backup battery with the XM hooked up, and then the back up to the backup iPad with 10 hours of backup for Nav (AHARS interface to the 210/510 wouldn't work with a total electrical failure), handheld transceiver with battery, and backup gear extension handle,  I think takes out any single point of failure issue with the all electric airplane.

[Jerry 5TJ]

22 hours ago, M20F said:

Adds more stuff to a single point of failure and you really are going to have to work hard to explain why it is any better then a 650 and a GMA350. 

I have two GTN750s.  Single point of failure is not an option.  

I don’t have to work very hard to explain how that is better than a couple of teensy-display 650s.   Let alone a couple of 430s with their awful push-push-twist-twist user interface.  

Agree there are cheaper ways to get from A to B.   SouthWest Airlines to name one.  

Edited March 10, 2019 by Jerry 5TJ

[M20F]

12 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I have both the 750 and 650.  They're both great GPSs.  So are the 530 and 430.  But the GTNs are so much more advanced, are so much easier to use, and have so much more capability to add even more advanced features than their predecessors, that they should be the GPSs of choice over spending money to install an earlier generation one.

In a world where we exclude the financial part of the discussion I would have 6 750’s in my panel.   The reality though is most folks have a limited budget so it is making the most use of those dollars.  So I think putting that context into the discussion is important as well.  

We are certainly in agreement GTN’s are better than a 430/530.  The discussion point was though what does a 750 do over a 650 other then have a bigger screen.  I keep seeing posts on this sub forum that a 750 is so much more powerful (including you).  It is a bigger screen if that matters to somebody by all means go for it.  I don’t see the point and I certainly don’t see linking all everything through that unit so when it fails you have compounding problems.   

In regards to electric versus vacuum, they are discreet and separate systems that in a GA airplane provide in my opinion the greatest level of redundancy for the least amount of cost.  Vacuum and mechanical is much more prone to failure hence why I have electric in my panel.  It though is a system that when your master switch fries, bus explodes, battery goes dead, etc. will keep on working.  I have a 4 forms of light in my plane, I still carry 2 flashlights. 

[M20F]

5 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I don’t have to work very hard to explain how that is better than a couple of teensy-display 650s.   

Great because it isn’t hard should be easy to explain the compelling gain of 2x750’s over 2 650’s.  Enlighten me. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

2 minutes ago, M20F said:

Great because it isn’t hard should be easy to explain the compelling gain of 2x750’s over 2 650’s.  Enlighten me. 

See image. QED. 

[M20F]

3 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

See image. QED. 

I don’t know what that means 

[NJMac]

I'm scheduled for my ADS B install in early April.  Since joining MS I now have caught the bug. I'm seriously considering a panel upgrade. I currently have an older Narco audio panel, Genave marker beacon, two King 155's, a Cessna ADF, King transponder and a boat anchor loran. Considering a Garmin GNS530W, keep the 155 that has GS, Stratus ADS B, and new combi audio panel with built in intercom and MB. Get rid of 155 no GS, ADF (shouldn't need with the 530), King transponder marker beacon, audio panel, and loran. I currently do not have an autopilot. Considering the TruTrack or Garmin maybe next year, once approved. So should I install the G5 HSI, or a GI106?  Will the G5 work with the TruTrack?  Do I need to include the GAD29B in the initial install or is it upgradable when I install the autopilot?  What's the best choice for audio panel. I'm already putting more $$$ into this than the plane will ever be worth. Appreciate any help. Oh by the way, will probably do an I Fly GPS OR Foreflight for ADS B in. 

Sounds like we're in close-ish proximity. I'd be glad to show you my plane. I started similarly to your goal and it crept a bit but wasn't hateful. If you're dead set on garmin, no worries but if not, my guy at Lakefield, KCQA, does Avidyne, L3, trutrac. Great work and more than fair pricing.

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[Marauder]

In a world where we exclude the financial part of the discussion I would have 6 750’s in my panel.   The reality though is most folks have a limited budget so it is making the most use of those dollars.  So I think putting that context into the discussion is important as well.  

We are certainly in agreement GTN’s are better than a 430/530.  The discussion point was though what does a 750 do over a 650 other then have a bigger screen.  I keep seeing posts on this sub forum that a 750 is so much more powerful (including you).  It is a bigger screen if that matters to somebody by all means go for it.  I don’t see the point and I certainly don’t see linking all everything through that unit so when it fails you have compounding problems.   

In regards to electric versus vacuum, they are discreet and separate systems that in a GA airplane provide in my opinion the greatest level of redundancy for the least amount of cost.  Vacuum and mechanical is much more prone to failure hence why I have electric in my panel.  It though is a system that when your master switch fries, bus explodes, battery goes dead, etc. will keep on working.  I have a 4 forms of light in my plane, I still carry 2 flashlights. 

 

I went through this back and forth on the 750 versus 650. For me, spending an extra $5k didn’t make sense. The 650 for me acts as the place I go to load approaches, load VCALC and change radio frequencies. It used to be the place I went to load flight plans and now that is relegated to the iPad.

 

What the 750 gives you is the ability to do a remote audio panel which you can add voice recognition capability. Both the 650 and 750 can do remote transponders. You can also add in other capabilities like Jerry did with his on-board radar.

 

The weak link is as you pointed out. The electrical system going TU. If it happened in my plane today, I would do a rolling backup using both Aspens and the ESI-500. This leaves whatever battery I have left to power the GPS, transponder and any other items I need (not necessarily what I want).

 

What I am exploring now is the B&C backup alternator that runs off of the now vacant vacuum pad. There is enough juice to run available with that backup to power more essential equipment.

 

For most owners, all of this is overkill. When I retire I hope my jaunts will be a lot more frequent and a lot longer than they are now. Working with a full toy box stinks and when you are forced to fly commercially.

 

 

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[Marauder]

I don’t know what that means 

 

Jerry is brushing up his Latin; Quod Erat Demonstrandum means “as demonstrated” give or take a word.

 

 

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[M20F]

30 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Jerry is brushing up his Latin; Quod Erat Demonstrandum means “as demonstrated” give or take a word.

I know what QED means, my question to @Jerry 5TJ what is he demonstrating as it is not clear to me. 

[Marauder]

I know what QED means, my question to [mention=7203]Jerry 5TJ[/mention] what is he demonstrating as it is not clear to me. 

The stuff it is showing, specifically the radar being displayed. Of course, having flown with Jerry in his JetProp he is also “demonstrating” his 323 knot ground speed in multiple spots. Right Jerry


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[Cruiser]

On 3/9/2019 at 3:24 PM, donkaye said:

Actually, it does.  When combined with the GMA 35 or 35C, Telligence brings a whole new dimension to GPS control.

actually it does NOT (GTN 750) unless you are willing to spend more money..........

[Buckeyechuck]

So after all of the great advice in the previous posts I'm going out to the airport in the morning and talk to the avionics shop about a new GTN650, GTX345 transponder, G5 HSI with all the goodies for future AP, a panel mount CO monitor, and a PMA8000BT audio panel. Here is the current panel. I'm really concerned about how all of that will fit; especially the G5 considering there will be a second one next year wth the AP. 

I need to spruce up the labeling across the bottom for switches, and controls. The original royalite was really bad when we did this panel in the '90's and I made this out of Bakelite material. Any ideas for replacement?

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, Buckeyechuck said:

I need to spruce up the labeling across the bottom for switches, and controls. The original royalite was really bad when we did this panel in the '90's and I made this out of Bakelite material. Any ideas for replacement?

Painted or powder coated aluminum with laser etched labels.

[Buckeyechuck]

Getting that back plate out will be a huge pain in the a$$. It's riveted to the cage and everything has to be taken out switches, controls, etc.  Not looking forward to that. I guess the old saying "nothing worth doing is ever easy" applies here. 

[Bob_Belville]

While you're spending money replacing the 3 engine controls - throttle, mixture, prop - with new McFarlane will be only 1 AMU. Yours appear to be original which means they're far beyond "TBO". We've had more than one tale told here about a throttle that failed in flight. Controlling air speed to land with throttle wide open using mixture and prop... too exciting?