Annual costs

[iceman]

Hello all!

I am new to Mooneyspace and have been looking for a Mooney to fill my mission(s) for about 9 months.  I finally found what I need at a reasonable price http://www.air-mods.com/forsale/N231RQ#/sites/airmodsflightcenter.com/files/forsale/N231RQ/N231RQ-788.jpg

This plane has all the 231 to 252 mods including the LB engine and GAMIs (not listed but I called).  I has NDH and a recent overhaul.   I'm told the owner is 80 years old and still flys the heck out of it!  I checked flightaware and he still flys at least twice a week.  The big thing I need, which this plane has at a reasonable price is TKS.  Living in the Seattle area, we can't go anywhere for 6+ months out of the year because of icing.   Heck, even today (May 12th) we have an icing airmet for 6000 feet.   The MEAs are at least 8k to get out of here over the mountains.  Even to Portlland, OR the MEAs are 6000.

I currently own a C172 180Hp, G430W, Stec 30 w/Gpss, Mode S traffic and LOVE it.  I fly the heck out of it (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N9940V )and with a useful load of 1050lbs, I can put the family of (4), fill the baggage compartment and the LR tanks and STILL be under gross.   I actually intend to keep this plane even "if" I buy a Mooney. 

My hesitation in the Mooney is the annual costs.   I called the MSC that does all the work and he told me the plane had a "light" annual this year.  He described what was done and most of it sounded like labor.  The "light" annual cost 5k!!!  I read the blogs that this forum suggested and every one's annuals are between 5k-8k!!!  Right now, I do owner assist annuals for about 1k!  

My question to all is... "on average" do Mooney annuals really cost that much!   I searched this site for the answer and most people seem to dodge the actual numbers.  I guess when we spend more than we had planned we tend to sweep it under the rug a bit.  In reality, I can't afford 5k-8k on top of hanger fees, fuel, TKS fluid, insurance, reg maint., etc.

I am sure I am not the only one with this dilemma?????

 

[GeorgePerry]

Lots of posts concerning annuals already on the site...You might try searching some key words for info.  I'll tell you from personal experience that Air Mods in NJ is a top notch MSC.  Fair prices for work and easy to deal with, honest folks.  If they tell you something about a plane, its the truth.

As for your question...speed costs money.  M20K is a much more complex machine than a 172.  A bare bones annual on an M20K should average about $2K at a run of the mill shop and  slightly more at a MSC.  This assumes "no dings"...but something almost always needs attention, regardless of the aircraft make or model.  I think it's safe to budget about $4-5K per year on an annual. 

[KSMooniac]

And there is no reason you couldn't do owner-assist annuals on a 231 either.  I do that on my 201 for $500 + my labor and some part costs like filters, lube, oil etc.  Last year I did pay $8k for a tank reseal, though, but I try to forget about writing that check. 

[Mooney_Allegro]

Year 1 annual cost $5800, year 2 annual cost $5300.  Both were MSC.  I will be using a non-MSC this year.  If the service was above and beyond at the MSC I would continue to use them, but with the experiences I had, they are not. 

[FlyDave]

Check out the thread I started a while back entitled "201 vs. 231". There's a bit of discussion around annual costs there but no one seemed to be willing to post any history of annual costs at that time.

[jrjaks]

I owned a '63 Mooney for 9 years, (1990-1999).  My annuals ranged from $400 to a maximum of $1,500.  None of these were performed at a MSC.

My present Mooney, a 1982 J model, has had four annuals since I owned it.  Three of those annuals were at MSC's, with the costs being $2,500, $2,900 and a whopping $11,000.  The one annual at a non-MSC was $1,500.  The $11,000 annual involved sending the engine back to Lycoming for premature cam wear, (which the factory paid for, except for the removal and reinstallation).  Because of the metal in the oil system, the prop had to have the governor overhauled, and the oil cooler too.  There were other issues, (replaced a gear door), and I believe the shop did all they could to keep the cost down.  The good side was I ended up with the roller cams, new pistons, rings, etc.  They even gave the engine a new serial number, (new case for the roller cams), but did not zero time it out.

The point to take from all this is that you will have a difficult time predicting what your year to year cost for annuals will be.  The MSC's tend to cost more, but have better knowledge of the airplane.  There are so many variations in the condition of individual airplanes, their history, maintenance, etc., it's just too hard to speculate on what someones year to year cost will be, especially if they are just speculating on a hypothetical airplane they haven't purchased yet.  On top of that, luck seems to be a big player!

[fantom]

In my experience what fogs up this "annual cost" question, is all the delayed repairs, out of the ordinary work, and owner modifications done during the annual. When writing a big check, it's hard to see a difference, but there is.

Usually an MSC, knowing more about Mooneys, will find more, do more, charge more and cost more.

 

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: fantom

In my experience what fogs up this "annual cost" question, is all the delayed repairs, out of the ordinary work, and owner modifications done during the annual. When writing a big check, it's hard to see a difference, but there is.

[MooneyPilot231]

I will agree with the above post, MSC's are pretty much a scam. I have dealt with two of them, one almost got me killed, and the other clearly knew almost nothing about Mooney aircraft. I will never understand why people would never dream of taking their vehicle to a car dealership and saying, "Please find everything wrong you can with my vehicle and charge me an outrageous amount of money to fix it", but they think being charged 5k for an annual at an MSC is acceptable. MSC's are in business to charge you as much as they can, for whatever they can. They don't give a damn if you get killed 2 hours after you fly out of their repair center. I can promise you that from first hand experience. It is a shame you need TKS my aircraft has far less airframe hours and much better avionics. To answer your question, I am doing an owner assisted annual now and parts, labor and all will be about $1500. I think a reasonable annual at a non-MSC repair center is going to avg. $2500. It should not exceed that unless you have some unusual parts that need replacing.

I do want to say that flying into known ice on a regular basis in a small plane, TKS aircraft or not, is not going to do much for your longevity. A Kingair with TKS and a Mooney with TKS is two totally different things. A turbo-prop or jet has the ability to handle the additional weight much better than a small aircraft. Just my opinion but planning to fly any small aircraft into known ice on a regular basis is not a good idea.....good luck with whatever you do.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: MooneyPilot231

I will agree with the above post, MSC's are pretty much a scam. I have dealt with two of them, one almost got me killed, and the other clearly knew almost nothing about Mooney aircraft.  MSC's are in business to charge you as much as they can, for whatever they can. They don't give a damn if you get killed 2 hours after you fly out of their repair center. 

[fantom]

I couldn't agree more. There are good and bad shops everywhere, and no shop will be happy if you have an accident right after leaving them. The FAA will make sure of that. In the last few years the Mooney factory when overboard throwing around MSC signs, and some aren't up to par, but to suggest that they are all a scam is plain wrong.

Bottom line, the more you know about your own plane, and the more legal repairs you do yourself, the safer you'll be. It's love labor when you work on your own plane, and it's your butt up there. The more you know, the better you'll be able to evaluate whomever works on your plane. Owner assisted annuals, even if you don't save a dime, is time well spent. 

Do your homework, speak to a lot of people, interview the shop before handing your keys over, and check out the work before writing the check and flying off. You'll live longer, and help keep all our insurance rates down.

[N207LS]

I too have done both the MSC and Independant annuals on my Mooney.  My experience at Mooney Mart (an MSC dba Florida Flight Maintenence) was not good (a $6800 ripoff).  I now use a very compitent independant mechanic who I have grown to know and trust.  He is not "Mooney factory trained", but is simply a good mechanic and pilot who understands airplanes.  He has done my last two annuals and they have run $1500-2000 with minor repairs.  More important than whether it is an MSC is whether the actual mechanic is a professional.  I think that the most important thing is finding someone that you can trust with your airplane.  Realize though that your Mooney will cost significantly more to maintain than a 172.  My car, a BMW, costs more to maintain than a Honda too. 

[Mooney_Allegro]

Before I owned the Mooney, my Dad owned it, and took it to Henry Weber in Lancaster, PA, which is a MSC.  The annuals for the 8 years that he had it were anywhere between $2500-$4000.  Probably averaged $2800.  He never had any trouble using Henry Weber.  They were fair, professional, and no issues after the annual.  After I bought the plane, it no longer was based in PA, and I had to find a new MSC.  I'm not the type of person that lets descrepancies pile up. If something is questionable, I get it fixed or replaced at the earliest convenience or ground the plane until it gets fixed. I tried MSC #1 the 1st year I had my plane.  I told them that there's a spare starter that was just overhauled in my luggage area, and to use that one in the event mine needs to be replaced. I even wrote that down on the descrepancy list.  After I pickup the plane, he tells me he forgot and put his own starter in my plane, which was sitting on his shelf for 2.5 years.  Also on the invoice, was 10 hours of labor that was listed as MISC.  When I asked him about it, he says, "it's 20 min. here, 45 min.  15 min here" etc.  This was above the basic annual charges.  He couldn't tell me exactly what he did in 10 hours.  Also, when I picked up the plane, and walked out to it, I found a large inspection panel under the wing about to fall off(held on by 1 screw), and 6 screws missing from the belly.  Also, both tie down rings were at a 45 degree angle to the relative wind, plus tape coming out of the cowling.  After spending $5800, I would expect the plane to be in perfect condition, but it wasn't.  Also, that starter that he put on came apart after only 80 hours(4 bolts came apart that holds the motor and bendix together). Since it was 12 months and 3 days, he wouldn't warranty it. 

Year 2, used another MSC for annual, and brought the plane in with a starting problem.  The bill showed $1000 in labor just for the starting issue(ended up being a magneto), BUT, after it was done, I flew it away, and on the "1st flight out of annual, 2nd start", the starter came apart. The bendix is held onto the motor by 4 screws. 1 screw was hanging half-way in, half-way out, the other 2 were missing, and the last one was sheared off.  When I cranked to start, the starter motor was turning, and that was the loud scraping noise I was hearing.  I brought the plane back, and he told me he should have caught it on the annual, but he defended himself and said, "the starter is not an airworthy item and I really don't need to check it".  So $300 later in labor/and the used Skytec starter, I was back in business, but had to take a day off from work and messed up plans because of a poor inspection. 

Also, with MSC #1, I told them I had a starting problem issue and he kept telling me that it was me who didn't know my aircraft, and I had to learn how to start it.  I kept telling him that no, it's not me, it's the plane.  Anyways, it was an independent mechanic who called Bill Wheat in Kerrville to discover that my plane came out of the factory without a grounding wire to ground the right mag on start.  So it was basically starting on both mags instead of the left.  After the grounding wire was installed, the prop turned over about twice as fast as before and I didn't have that issue anymore. The MSC didn't solve the issue or even listen to my complaints, it was the independent mechanic who solved years of problems. 

I agree that some MSC are really good, others are not as good.  For my experiences, I will not use a MSC for year 3.  I will use the independent mechanic shop that is very familiar with the Mooney aircraft, and who allows owner assisted annuals, a shop that listens to me, and is very thorough.  MSC shop 1 told me I couldn't talk to the mechanic or be on his shop floor because I'm distracting him, and my invoice will be higher if I stay to talk to him.   I don't mind spending $5000 on an annual if they are thorough, and professional, but the service I received in the past was not. 

[iceman]

Wow, lots of GREAT information.  I believe the point of how much is spent on maintainance in one year vs. at the annual is a very good point.  I am VERY proactive when any squawk comes up on my C172.  Being a Mechanical Engineer (Worked for Boeing for 9 years) I enjoy doing almost everything myself with an IA present.  I would really like to find a knowlegeable mooney IA in the Seattle area if I choose to buy a mooney.

MSC's don't have a patent on providing good or bad service.  In fact, we have a maint. facility where I keep my plane and I refuse to let them even touch my plane.  I had work done a few times that was incomplete and just plane unsafe.

 

I agree is Mooney231Pilot that launching into Known Icing doesn't do much for longevity.  But having the ability to get out of the icing safely is a big factor.   Much of the icing in the NW comes from the mountains holding back the clouds in a stratus layer below 8,000-9,000 feet.  Just 60 miles east, it is usually sunny and clear a lot of the winter.  Being able to climb above those conditions at 700 fpm with TKS would open up much of the winter travel. 

 

So, it looks like I need to

1)Find a mooney that suits my needs

2)Find a reputable MSC or IA for annuals

3)Continue my proactive approach to maint.

4)Have fun going 160+ Knots instead of 115... that should be easy!!!

 

Thanks guys!

[mooniac58]

My annuals on my J are always $1200-$1500.  This is because I also do not defer maintenance (the concept of this to me is silly and dangerous to be honest).  My A&P and I spend a lot of time in the plane through the year inspecting and fixing any little thing that does not seem right.  On average I would say I spend at least $300-$500 per month fixing little squawks (which is minor when compared to fuel really).  So good to plan on $10K per year to keep your bird safe and airworthy.

You are going to find Mooney parts are a LOT more expensive than Cessna parts.  As soon as the word Mooney is in a part description it is instantly costs 4x what it is really worth. It is the price of owning an exotic airplane...and worth it to me at least!