Got into ice today

[Hank]

24 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

No, my friend, I'd say your sarcasm comes in loud and clear.    It really encourages people to listen to you.

Yes, that was sarcasm too.

He comes across as strongly patronizing to me, with a truckload of arrogance thrown in. It makes me skip over his comments, because I get tired of being talked down to over and over and over again. No, my Mooney doesn't have two turbojet engines, a copilot and a dispatch crew to figure out the flight plan. But in twelve years of ownership, I have yet to get lost, day or night, windy or calm.

Maybe Jimbo can figure out how to make his sarcasm sound sarcastic? That's so much better than how he has been sounding in this thread. Yes, i am serious.

[Aviationinfo]

So to change the subject (by the way, thanks for your posts RagedRacer, clearly you started this thread in the spirit of learning, I think that’s a great attitude),   I watched the video link posted early on, of the guy videoing himself in his twin Cessna.

Is it just me, or was anyone else alarmed at the dive to make it down for a landing?  I mean, the guy puts himself out there, I don’t want to overly criticize, and the rest of it was passable.  He seems to know his avionics well enough to operate.

But I mean... he’s shooting a GPS approach to minimums that are higher than the reported ceiling, there’s a VDP on the approach, and he’s talking about the “secondary” minimums which are based on LPV.   So if his first planned mins were higher than that, does that mean he does not have LPV capability?  

It just got real unstable there at the end as a result of the dive, made me nervous watching it.  Or perhaps that was just the camera angle.  In any case, even if he was using LNAV/VNAV I’d have thought he’d would've been in a better position to land at the end.   

For me when I was new at IFR,   it was a big revelation that not only do you need the weather mins, you have to break out in time to avoid heroics in order to land.

[xcrmckenna]

In my day job I am to FOM/FAR/contractual limits.  As long as the plane has no issues and both of us feel good and there is a plan B.  Is what I am about to do safe legal and make sense?
In the wild west world of single engine airplanes where almost everything may be pencil whipped I would say it just depends on the day and if I am in my plane or someone else's.  But to generalize I am not going to intentionally fly into any conditions where there is even a slight possibility of ice or in IMC without having the ability to circle down below the clouds to find a landing field.  I have been there and done that when I was young and dumb and it all comes down to that saying that you are better off being on the ground wishing you were in the air vs being in the air and wishing you were on the ground.  Have those experience many times over and at some point your name will be in the obituaries.  
I occasionally fly at night.  Maybe once every two years in a single if for some reason I got caught out for reasons beyond my control.  I never plan a trip to fly at night. And everything better be working in the plane 100%. Hotels are cheaper than funerals.  
No hi winds.  Can I handle the Mooney in 30+ knot winds....yes but at some point the luck and skill will run out and Penn Yang and Hartzell will be taking my money.  I rather keep it for other stuff like Avgas and massages in Asia.
Will I ever do an approach in my plane to minimums?  Perhaps if its totally unforecasted but in 5 years of ownership I have yet to do one and by following my higher minimums I doubt I will.  I did put all the odds in my favor with my panel for it is incase my judgement goes to hell and plan B or C disolved.
People get upset that I call it a flying lawn mower.  I wonder what the people who have lost engines at 300 feet and made off airport landings would call it?  Or the families who lost loved ones would call it?  GA is the Wild West and we really have no idea how they are maintained, except for the few gear heads here who do their own mx and also know what they are doing....Those are not one in the same.

Thanks for the write up, I don’t know if that’s a minimums list other than you said you won’t do an approach to minimums in your Mooney. Personally I don’t see the difference flying an approach that is 500’ higher than minimums vs at minimums. You don’t have many options a 1,000 agl around an airport if you’re using the theory of going someplace else. So I would have no problems flying to minimums I’ll just be fully prepared to go missed and try someplace else.

You said you’re not going to fly into IMC with the possibility of ice unless you know you could circle down out of the clouds to find a landing spot. I would say that’s what Brice said he did. And to take it further what do you mean circle down? Are you just going to tell ATC here I come? I would think vectors like ATC gave him away from everyone as he could expedite his decent was pretty simple and the way to go. And looking around the San Diego area anything west is pretty low terrain, the cloud deck was at 5000msl right? So wouldn’t that fit your minimums of what you would do? You have multiple ways to get out of icing.

On the wind discussion winds in the taf were 280/22g31 KSAN has runways 09/27. That’s a cross wind component of about 5kts and only 9kts of gusts. I’m not saying it wouldn’t have been a bumpy ride in but putting those numbers to paper and real life flying I don’t see the concern you have or the condemnation you have for the pilot.

I reference my engine as a lawnmower as in the technology it has so that’s no skin off my back. Where I think you are stepping out of line is when your reference your insurance rates and people dying. Personally your insurance premiums are the last thing on my mind when I step into my plane. And it definitely won’t change my personal minimums.

I’m all for learning from pilots with more and less experience than me. I’m far from someone that says they know everything. And I’m not a bold pilot, I get nervous with every flight. But I don’t see how the OP had no outs in this situation and scrapped by on sheer luck.




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[Marauder]

So to change the subject (by the way, thanks for your posts RagedRacer, clearly you started this thread in the spirit of learning, I think that’s a great attitude),   I watched the video link posted early on, of the guy videoing himself in his twin Cessna.
Is it just me, or was anyone else alarmed at the dive to make it down for a landing?  I mean, the guy puts himself out there, I don’t want to overly criticize, and the rest of it was passable.  He seems to know his avionics well enough to operate.
But I mean... he’s shooting a GPS approach to minimums that are higher than the reported ceiling, there’s a VDP on the approach, and he’s talking about the “secondary” minimums which are based on LPV.   So if his first planned mins were higher than that, does that mean he does not have LPV capability?  
It just got real unstable there at the end as a result of the dive, made me nervous watching it.  Or perhaps that was just the camera angle.  In any case, even if he was using LNAV/VNAV I’d have thought he’d would've been in a better position to land at the end.   
For me when I was new at IFR,   it was a big revelation that not only do you need the weather mins, you have to break out in time to avoid heroics in order to land.

Yeah, the twin guy posts under Jerry W on YouTube. There are a number of videos he posted where you get a pretty good sense of his “style”. He often will post a video and get a number of critical comments. He sometimes will pull the video down. He did this with a number of flights where he was clearly flying very low in the Bay Area.

He did dive to the runway and he did make the “secondary minimums” comment. He also let that knucklehead in the front seat become a distraction. Not to mention that he didn’t configure the autopilot correctly and had to take over when it was clear it wasn’t going to intercept correctly.

There was a video he posted into Oakland where he flew to minimums only a couple of days after adding all the new glass. He is something...


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[xcrmckenna]

He comes across as strongly patronizing to me, with a truckload of arrogance thrown in. It makes me skip over his comments, because I get tired of being talked down to over and over and over again. No, my Mooney doesn't have two turbojet engines, a copilot and a dispatch crew to figure out the flight plan. But in twelve years of ownership, I have yet to get lost, day or night, windy or calm.
Maybe Jimbo can figure out how to make his sarcasm sound sarcastic? That's so much better than how he has been sounding in this thread. Yes, i am serious.

It’s just a clear cut case of your minimums should be my minimums and you’re an idiot, and a death certificate waiting to happen if they are not my minimums.

Pilots with much less experience then him have lived long full lives enjoying aviation till the day they died. The flip side the list is long of pilots with more experience then Mr. Peace that died do to a plane crash. I’m all for mitigation of risk, but thinking your luck is going to run out on a 5kt cross wind landing. Well in that case you were probably going to die anyways.

It’s all a matter of perspective.


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[bradp]

Jerry’s violated almost every subsection of 91.175 so why not throw in another to round it out:

“(c)Operation below DA/DH or MDA.Except as provided in § 91.176 of this chapter, where a DA/DH or  MDA is applicable, no pilot may operate an aircraft, except a military  aircraft of the United States, below the authorized  MDAor continue an approach below the authorized DA/DH unless - 

(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;”

... ie no diving for the runway allowed.  

 

Also I posted not too long ago about the IGX (now closed, rip little airport) Advisory VNAV glidepath leading you into the trees unless you drive and intercept the visual glide path.  Reason is the angles were not coincident at 3-deg and 4-deg visual.  This is something that I’m pretty sure Jerry has zero clue about with his (second minimums bs) and can literally get you killed at some airports.  It’s enough bravado to make me nauseated, honestly.  I’ve been one of those commenters on a few of his videos asking him to seek out some instruction/mentoring.  Then I gave up.  

[DXB]

This post is pure conjecture about an area where I know nearly zero - the skill set of those here flying big jets - I know  y'all will  correct me if I am wrong . I realize your weather training, procedural skills, and total experience flying exceed my amateur background by orders of magnitude.  When at work, you enjoy robust anti-icing systems and power to climb above weather threats in a heartbeat.  So operationally, your icing considerations at work seem much simpler than when flying your lawnmower (aka IFR-certified single engine piston airplane ). You are all too aware that taking your M20C into some layers that your company's 737 handles with ease would end badly , so it might seem foolish to play anywhere near that territory.  But in reality, it just requires more complex planning and judgement in regard to icing than the 737 demands.  Some career pilots say that seems too much like work, and they just want to fly on warm sunny days with calm winds on their days off - nothing wrong with that.  But declaring that taking the lawnmowers into more challenging conditions is foolish for everyone might come from ignorance of the distinct knowledge and judgement required to stay safe. Clearly some career pilots here enjoy that distinct challenge or at least are willing to take it on to add utility to flying in their personal lives.  I suspect the amateurs can learn to do it safely too with the right mindset, incremental learning, and mentorship.  

[alextstone]

10 hours ago, kpaul said:

For the jets going in they just may have had their anti-ice/de-ice systems on, therefor they were not picking up ice, also faster is better in this case for sure.  Ram air temp rise will keep ice off to a certain extent.  In the jet I fly we use Ram Air Temp (RAT) not OAT to determine when to turn on the anti/de-ice.  Oh, if you fly at or above 400 KTAS icing is generally not a problem either

 

I am both amazed and somewhat jealous of the experience you speak of, @kpaul !

[ragedracer1977]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

So the real question is would you make a similar flight again?  I would have a hard time answering that. Many times icing is widespread (especially descending through layers) so the 180 escape would not do much good.  Could the plane carrying ice climb back on top?  What if control had you hold in an icing layer for traffic?  

I don’t think anyone is criticizing the steps you took after entering ice. I think everyone is just expressing things can go downhill quickly with very few get down safe options. 

I honestly can't say 100% no.  I took the information available at the time and decided the margins were wide enough to go.  Given an identical scenario, I probably would opt to go VFR instead.  The flight home was a route of my choosing, at an altitude of my choosing. I filed IFR merely for the convenience, but in this case I ended up in worse weather than if I hadn't.  

[ilovecornfields]

When the weather is bad, go IFR. If it’s REALLY bad, go VFR!

[Aviationinfo]

By the way ragededracer, it’s always worth asking ATC to affirmatively request a pilot report from any aircraft in approach airspace.  Even jets.   You don’t have to just ask if ATC “has” any icing PIREPS.  There are unheated areas in view of the pilots that are not de-iced, namely the windshield wiper posts or other protuberances, that will show an accumulation.  

Obviously you need to withhold such requests for appropriate and necessary occasions.  ATC can always say no or I’ll get back to you, as well.  A thinking controller won’t need prompting to ask another aircraft, however that’s not really his/her job and they do get busy.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Aviationinfo

[Jim Peace]

1 hour ago, xcrmckenna said:

You said you’re not going to fly into IMC with the possibility of ice unless you know you could circle down out of the clouds to find a landing spot. 

I get nervous with every flight. 

 

 

I will not be intentionally flying into IMC with the possibility of ice.  I may at times fly in and out of sporadic warm weather IMC with plenty of altitude to at least find a field below me.

I have never been nervous flying my plane.  If you get nervous like you wrote with every flight then that is a whole nuther thread.  Just to be sure you are using the correct language tell us what you are nervous about? and why you would continue if you were.

I have only been slightly concerned twice in my plane.  Once it lasted for about 10 seconds.  My GTN went blank more pissed at Garmin and my money spent than the plane.  That thread is long ago.  The other time is when my sensorcon CO detector alarmed at 35 from its normal 0 to single digits.  Problem was discovered and fixed.  Please equip yourself with one.

[ragedracer1977]

2 minutes ago, Aviationinfo said:

By the way ragededracer, it’s always worth asking ATC to affirmatively request a pilot report from any aircraft in approach airspace.  Even jets.   You don’t have to just ask if ATC “has” any icing PIREPS.  There are unheated areas in view of the pilots that are not de-iced, namely the windshield wiper posts or other protuberances, that will show an accumulation.  

Obviously you need to withhold such requests for appropriate and necessary occasions.  ATC can always say no or I’ll get back to you, as well.

I did.  

[Aviationinfo]

1 minute ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I did.  

Good for you!  

A lot of people won’t ask “SoCal will you get me an icing pirep from Delta?”  etc  

 

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I honestly can't say 100% no.  I took the information available at the time and decided the margins were wide enough to go.  Given an identical scenario, I probably would opt to go VFR instead.  The flight home was a route of my choosing, at an altitude of my choosing. I filed IFR merely for the convenience, but in this case I ended up in worse weather than if I hadn't.  

An alternate way of looking at that would be to start out IFR, but be continuously asking the question of when to cancel and proceed VFR.  Kind of how you're supposed to continuously be looking for an emergency landing location if the engine were to quit.

[xcrmckenna]

I will not be intentionally flying into IMC with the possibility of ice.  I may at times fly in and out of sporadic warm weather IMC with plenty of altitude to at least find a field below me.
I have never been nervous flying my plane.  If you get nervous like you wrote with every flight then that is a whole nuther thread.  Just to be sure you are using the correct language tell us what you are nervous about? and why you would continue if you were.
I have only been slightly concerned twice in my plane.  Once it lasted for about 10 seconds.  My GTN went blank more pissed at Garmin and my money spent than the plane.  That thread is long ago.  The other time is when my sensorcon CO detector alarmed at 35 from its normal 0 to single digits.  Problem was discovered and fixed.  Please equip yourself with one.

Well I have Avidyne so I don’t have to worry about it going black and I have a Sensocon and an Aithre co detector.

Sure, I get nervous before every test, isn’t that what flying is? You get the test during the flight and the answers when your on the ground... You seem to have this unhealthy fear or untrusting of your airplane the lawnmower with wings mentality, pencil whip maintenance to keep you from flying into dangerous conditions the Wild West of flying single engine planes. I’m surprised you would want to live so close to an airport for fear of all those planes just falling out of the sky and on to your home....

Did I say I’m nervous all the time I’m flying? No, I also got nervous when I would serve high risk warrants in my past life as a cop, or when I would pull a car over for a tail light out. You never know what’s around the bend maybe they just robbed a bank and killed two other cops. You never know.

If you don’t have a little fear of all the parts and pieces in even your work airplane needing to work perfectly to keep you alive then maybe you don’t get it. Maybe you are a super pilot like you stated earlier with such superior skills you never have to use them. Personally I wouldn’t know what thats like. I have a healthy fear of life to know I DON’T know everything. But it sounds like you are the dangerous pilot we hear about all to often. Maybe you’re not going to kill yourself in your Mooney, but it sounds like you might kill a few hundred people in your work plane.

You still didn’t explain what Brice did was so different then what you said your minimums were for ice and IMC conditions. That’s why I asked you what they were, to hear what you say they are. But now you’re trying to change them after I pointed out how this situation fit PERFECTLY into what you said your minimums were.... And how a 5kt cross wind was to much for you to deal with.

Or maybe you really didn’t think through what the situation was and you just started talking out your butt and being a little judgmental?




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[M016576]

1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I honestly can't say 100% no.  I took the information available at the time and decided the margins were wide enough to go.  Given an identical scenario, I probably would opt to go VFR instead.  The flight home was a route of my choosing, at an altitude of my choosing. I filed IFR merely for the convenience, but in this case I ended up in worse weather than if I hadn't.  

In my experience, rarely is IFR more convenient, when VFR can safely accomplish the flight. Normally filing IFR into busy areas on days where commercial flights are stacked up (kind of like what you described) will result in major delays, which you can avoid entirely by being VFR.  

Where IFR is “nice” in VMC.... and what keeps me filing IFR in terminal environments that are busy (also like you describe), is when I’m not 100% familiar with the VMC/VFR special traffic rules or airspace shelves.  It’s nice to have a controller vector me through- so I don’t unintentionally violate the airspace.  Of course, if you’re VMC, no matter what type of Flight Rules you’re under- safe separation of aircraft is always the PIC’s responsibility.... so busy airspace still requires ones head to be on a swivel, no matter what.

Edited February 19, 2019 by M016576

[M016576]

14 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

An alternate way of looking at that would be to start out IFR, but be continuously asking the question of when to cancel and proceed VFR.  Kind of how you're supposed to continuously be looking for an emergency landing location if the engine were to quit.

Yes- I love this- especially as I get close to my destination- as traditionally, I find that I get “penalty vectors” in busy airspace... probably because the mooney is so fast, I keep catching up to jets on final  

 

[M016576]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Yeah, the twin guy posts under Jerry W on YouTube. There are a number of videos he posted where you get a pretty good sense of his “style”. He often will post a video and get a number of critical comments. He sometimes will pull the video down. He did this with a number of flights where he was clearly flying very low in the Bay Area.

He did dive to the runway and he did make the “secondary minimums” comment. He also let that knucklehead in the front seat become a distraction. Not to mention that he didn’t configure the autopilot correctly and had to take over when it was clear it wasn’t going to intercept correctly.

There was a video he posted into Oakland where he flew to minimums only a couple of days after adding all the new glass. He is something...


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I’m pretty sure that this guy was full deflection on both needles when he “broke out” on that Oakland approach.... it was a little hard to see exactly what he had dialed up... but it was at the very least a “non stable, 2+ degrees off” approach in IMC.  I’m fairly certain he had lost total situational awareness of where he was on the approach until he broke out, below glideslope, and nose down.  He should have gone around well prior to that point.

This second approach is a classic “there it is!” Below mins and inside the VDP.  His mains didn’t touch down until he was half way down the (remaining) runway.... and that runway looked wet to me.  He taxied off at the end... and he was still trucking pretty good.  He probably got on the binders pretty hard to make that happen.  He’s lucky he didn’t bullseye a tire (maybe he did).

He *needs* more practice.  And instruction.  Preferably on a VMC day with a well seasoned Instructor.

he also needs to stop video taping himself.  He certainly does NOT need that distraction.

Edited February 19, 2019 by M016576

[bill98]

On 2/18/2019 at 7:27 AM, Jim Peace said:

You need to understand that the lack of reports of ice does not mean that is not a crap load out there.  Many Jets (most) do not even have anti ice capability on the tails because we just do not pick up ice that easily with the speeds we fly and the aerodynamics of the plane.  And even if I did pick up ice and then removed it I am not necessarily going to make that report to ATC.  The reports that would be meaningful would have come from other single engine airplanes in the soup.  But you would hardly hear any up there being that they knew that a OAT of 0c and visible moisture has potential to kill them.

Interesting, 

When I flew to New Orleans Lake Front (highly recommend btw) a couple weekends ago, every 5-10 minutes American pilots descending into DFW from various directions were happily providing pireps regarding turbulence and ice if they had accumulated any. One was "Greetings approach, this is AA 1234, descending from 20-15, we picked up slight rime ice on the nose. Not much accumulation." and another was "This is AA 4321 checking in, we have a pirep, from 14-12 we had some light turbulence".

Near NOLA, ATC was asking me for ceiling reports as I went around the lake.

[Skates97]

17 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

This was exactly my thought process.  

And I want to be clear, I posted this not because I think it was "neat" but to demonstrate that even with what I thought was a pretty safe plan, I still found ice and to document what I did when it happened. 

I knew there would be a couple folks who couldn't help themselves and would act like they always do, but I'm not afraid to post my mistakes so that others learning after me can come here and find examples and file it away in their library of how and why things happen.  

So, it's fine with me that I got attacked.  And called inappropriate names.  I knew what I was getting in to.

I just want to say thanks for posting your experience here, despite knowing what would be coming your way from some of the locals. I hang around here for the camaraderie and to learn, and I learned quite a few things from your thread here.

Unfortunately, I wonder how many experiences others have had that won't share them knowing the often unproductive comments made about their intelligence/decision making/skills that would follow. I'm not saying there can't be constructive criticism offered, but it is apparent reading through the comments in this thread which are helpful to the dialogue and which aren't. If we can foster the kinds of conversations that encourage people to share their experiences, the good, bad, and ugly, I think we will be much better off and all have a greater knowledge base to draw upon.

Again, thanks for sharing.

[Cyril Gibb]

Now that I’ve had time to review the TAF, terrain and route of the OPs flight, I would have made the same decision to go.  Warm VFR conditions not far below and ample terrain clearance is the obvious out.

My only concern would be the hellacious 5 knot crosswind component. /sarc: off

 

[bradp]

More ice today in NC.  A part 135 flight carrying a patient of mine had to land short of Raleigh.  

About two hours ago there was a pireip W of FAY/POB for a C182 encountering light rime at 3000 although all the reporting stations in the area were ceilings mostly 5500-8000.  First I was like is that real?  And then I notice there’s another temp inversion with widespread precipitation.   Yup it was real.  Now there’s a big blob of ice pellets / sleet / fzra in the RDU area.  

 

[MikeOH]

10 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Snip...

Unfortunately, I wonder how many experiences others have had that won't share them knowing the often unproductive comments made about their intelligence/decision making/skills that would follow.

I can say with 100% certainty that I do NOT post ANY of my experiences for EXACTLY this reason.

The last thing I need is some arrogant holier than thou “expert” telling me I’m to blame for his high insurance premiums.

[ragedracer1977]

36 minutes ago, bradp said:

More ice today in NC.  A part 135 flight carrying a patient of mine had to land short of Raleigh.  

About two hours ago there was a pireip W of FAY/POB for a C182 encountering light rime at 3000 although all the reporting stations in the area were ceilings mostly 5500-8000.  First I was like is that real?  And then I notice there’s another temp inversion with widespread precipitation.   Yup it was real.  Now there’s a big blob of ice pellets / sleet / fzra in the RDU area.  

 

I'd like to learn more about that, what I assume is, skew-t graph. How do you get it? How do you read it?