Spend my money for me - new panel dreaming

[Rick Junkin]

I'm going to upgrade my panel at some point, and have arrived at my latest favorite configuration. This will be a complete R&R of the panel aside from the things that must remain for certification requirements. I've moved some standard things around, like trim indicators and light switches, to make for a better flow with the new configuration and to move everything to my right hand. For instance, I put the switches for taxi lights, landing lights and the boost pump together at the bottom of the panel for easier pre-landing cross check (all three switches are ON for landing in my personal procedures). The iPad mini on the right is representative, as it is intended to serve mainly as inflight entertainment for my primary passenger and I may use a larger iPad on a flexible mount to allow landscape orientation.There isn't a convenient place to stash an iPad that isn't in use, and attaching it to the panel keeps it from being loose in the cockpit. Plus it gives me another display option if Glennie isn't with me.

I like the two 7" TXi displays as this configuration requires no backup instruments and helps clean the panel that much more. I want a dedicated engine display and I spent quite a while thinking about where to put the JPI 900 and decided on where I have it to provide an easy crosscheck in the (left hand) VFR pattern, which I fly about 50% of the time. Plus I already have an 830 in the airplane on that side of the panel so it will reduce the effort to move/extend the harnesses. I know, that would be the LEAST of my financial concern with this project, but it's something anyway. And I like the 900 over the 930. I also like redundancy, hence the comm panel and the transponder in the stack so that I don't have the single point failure of controlling remote units through the 750. Oh, the TKS panel (NOT FIKI) is currently installed in the radio stack so is oversized from what it needs to be in width, but I kept it's current dimensions for this exercise.

I have witnessed some of you taking the spending of other people's money to a high art form, so for you this should be fun. Here's what I have so far, minus some obvious details, like the landing gear switch, that I haven't figured out how to replicate in Panel Planner. I'm really liking it... aside from my estimated cost of, well, a LOT. This will be going into an M20M, one of the original TLS birds.

Thanks for your inputs.

Cheers,
Rick

 

[ZuluZulu]

This is pretty much exactly what I envision in my future bird. If that’s a GFC-500, doesn’t it require a G5?

[Niko182]

Couple tips and corrections.

STEP 1
Youre gonna need a G5. if you want the GFC500, a G5 is 100% required. the GFC500 can't fly off the 500TXI. yes people get annoyed, but what people seem to miss is that the GFC500 is some servos and a control panel. The software is inside the G5 to run the GFC500.

STEP 2
Why not make the second screen a TXI EIS. the TXI has the ability to be both an engine monitor and and an AHRS. since thats the case, just make the second screen an engine monitor and avoid buying a EDM900, and you'll still be legal.

STEP 3
For the audio panel, add a PMA450B. when the time comes, im still stuck between the GMA35C and the PMA450B but since you don't want a remote mount, from what i've heard the every single person that owns a 450 loves them.

STEP 4
I doubt all the Nav/com, gps, transponder, autopilot, and annuciator will fit in the center stack. Your options are either Remote transponder, or get new annuciators, which btw are quite nice but a tad bit pricey.

OPTIONAL
since you're gonna need a G5 for the autopilot, might as well consider the 10.6 display. more screen real estate.

 

 

[DanM20C]

Rick,

I was glad to see the Guardian was in there!

Cheers,

Dan

[Rick Junkin]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

Youre gonna need a G5

You’re going to be hearing more about GFC500 requirements from Garmin as time goes on. I won’t need the G5 by the time I’m ready to pull the trigger on this.

Cheers,

Rick

[Niko182]

7 minutes ago, Junkman said:

You’re going to be hearing more about GFC500 requirements from Garmin as time goes on. I won’t need the G5 by the time I’m ready to pull the trigger on this.

Cheers,

Rick

You understand that the g5 is the brain of the autopilot. The txi doesnt talk to the gfc500 in anyway. It talks to the g5 which talks to the gfc500. Also garmin made it legal to have a g5 as a backup to the g500txi specifically to allow the gfc500 to work with the given setup. I wouldnt count on it completely. Tike will tell however and i will be very surprised if they actually certify it with the txi systems.

[Rick Junkin]

27 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

The txi doesnt talk to the gfc500 in anyway.

When I was talking to Garmin about them using my airplane for the GFC500 STC work, I told them (by email) that I wasn't interested because I didn't want to put a G5 in my airplane, and the GFC500 wouldn't be an option for me because of that. I was asked to call the rep.

By the time I called him, he had a candidate airplane selected for the STC work, but he continued the conversation with me about what I wanted to do with my panel. The conversation turned a little cloak-and-dagger with him saying he couldn't tell me directly what Garmin had in the works, but that I should think in terms of what it might take to get the widest sales of the GFC500 beyond the G5 market, and that would lead me to a future GFC500 solution with my panel configuration plans. He wouldn't give me a time frame, but that's no surprise. I'm guessing 2-3 years minimum, which hits my upgrade timeframe. If I'm wrong, I go a different direction with my panel, or at least the autopilot.

Like you said, its software in the G5 that drives the GFC500. The TXi runs on software too, Garmin holds the code for both, cats and dogs occasionally sleep together and from those strange bedfellows emerge interesting results. Again as you said, time will tell.

Cheers,
Rick

[Niko182]

1 minute ago, Junkman said:

When I was talking to Garmin about them using my airplane for the GFC500 STC work, I told them (by email) that I wasn't interested because I didn't want to put a G5 in my airplane, and the GFC500 wouldn't be an option for me because of that. I was asked to call the rep.

By the time I called him, he had a candidate airplane selected for the STC work, but he continued the conversation with me about what I wanted to do with my panel. The conversation turned a little cloak-and-dagger with him saying he couldn't tell me directly what Garmin had in the works, but that I should think in terms of what it might take to get the widest sales of the GFC500 beyond the G5 market, and that would lead me to a future GFC500 solution with my panel configuration plans. He wouldn't give me a time frame, but that's no surprise. I'm guessing 2-3 years minimum, which hits my upgrade timeframe. If I'm wrong, I go a different direction with my panel, or at least the autopilot.

Like you said, its software in the G5 that drives the GFC500. The TXi runs on software too, Garmin holds the code for both, cats and dogs occasionally sleep together and from those strange bedfellows emerge interesting results. Again as you said, time will tell.

Cheers,
Rick

If thats the case, I might look at dual 7 inch TXI's instead of a single 10. thanks for the new info.

[Rick Junkin]

2 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I doubt all the Nav/com, gps, transponder, autopilot, and annuciator will fit in the center stack.

Rat farts! You're right. I bit off on this once before and forgot about it - the M20M panel blank in Panel Planner is taller than the TLS panel that I have. Updated plan below, with annunciator moved front and center and the TKS panel trimmed to minimum dimension:

Cheers,
Rick

 

[Rick Junkin]

2 hours ago, DanM20C said:

Rick,

I was glad to see the Guardian was in there!

Cheers,

Dan

That was the first thing that went in the panel plan, Dan. Glennie was very happy about that too.

Cheers,
Rick

[carusoam]

Re consider the remote mount units...

1) if something goes wrong with the panel mount units, there isn’t much to fix while flying...

2) improved panel space.

3) improved WnB

4) Staying all in one supplier has some connectivity benefits... they have to work as advertised... nobody else to blame...

5) the second txi with engine monitor sounds brilliant!

6) I’m still a fan of the various component suppliers... but, can no longer remember all the many details to review and select while going through the selection process...

7) don’t buy anything that isn’t ready yet.  Accept no promises that a function will be available in the near future...

8) I like the ipad flexibility... watch @Rmag‘s latest video... there is an excellent review of the many functions and integrated iPad on his recent panel...  ForeFlight announcements in the audio panel... Lots o G hardware in the panel...

9) There must be four or more MSers that have supplied recent panel updates with the logic they put into device placement.

It is a great pleasure spending Rick’s AMUs...

Hopefully, the MS crowdsourcing of ideas  is more than fruitful... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Rick Junkin]

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

5) the second txi with engine monitor sounds brilliant!

I might have this wrong, but I THINK I read that if you use a 7" TXi as an EIS, that's ALL you can use it for. It doesn't make sense now that I've typed it, but I remember thinking that it didn't make sense when I read it, either. I was hard-over on going Dynon at the time and didn't look into it anymore deeply. I'll have to go back and perform my due diligence. I remember thinking that it would cost me more to go the Garmin EIS route because I already have the JPI probes and harnesses, I'm familiar with the JPI, yada yada.

For those questioning what turned me off of Dynon, see Anthony's #7 above. Too many unknowns about the autopilot/trim capability at this point, and those are extremely important selling points for me. PLUS the fact that I have to install a D10 backup. Now if they come out with certified display configurations similar to Garmin...

Cheers,
Junkman

[Rick Junkin]

5 minutes ago, Junkman said:

I'll have to go back and perform my due diligence.

Here it is from the Garmin web site:

EIS TXi

Dedicated 7" Portrait EIS Display - Single 4 Cylinder Piston Engine

$11,940.00 USD

A little further down the page:

A single 10.6” TXi display can accommodate PFD information, a multifunction display (MFD) and a vertical EIS strip. And the 7” formats can act as dedicated EIS displays or as split-screen MFD/EIS displays¹. 

 

And finally, the footnote:

¹7” display split-screen MFD/EIS format is available for single-engine piston aircraft only

 

This would appear to prevent it from being used as a PFD backup, which then would require the installation of a G5 to back up the 7" PFD. That's a non-starter for me. And also makes the JPI 900 look like a steal!

 

Cheers,

Rick

[Zulee]

Junkman,

I guess you could be in my situation...money spent, brand new Aspen PFD MFD and waiting on Aspen to provide the shop with a green light...who is waiting on the FAA to provide Aspen a green light.

If it's not one thing, it's something else.

[Rick Junkin]

27 minutes ago, Zulee said:

Junkman,

I guess you could be in my situation...money spent, brand new Aspen PFD MFD and waiting on Aspen to provide the shop with a green light...who is waiting on the FAA to provide Aspen a green light.

If it's not one thing, it's something else.

Oh NOOooo! What's the driver for that? I thought the shop had already coordinated with Aspen, and everything was laying flat in that regard. Or is it just that the paperwork at completion needs to make the rounds for the final okee dokee?

Cheers (and sympathy),
Rick

P.S. I guess you won't need me to give you a lift over to pick up your airplane anytime soon then. Maybe mine will be fixed by then....

[ArtVandelay]

If it were me, I would lose the expensive rocker CB switches. Replaced them with standard CBs pull types and simple switches.
I already have G5s and JPI so a stand-alone 7” TXi to replace steam gauges would be all I wanted.


Tom

[Rick Junkin]

Here's the latest iteration, and the last for a bit. I already have a GTX345 installed, so that's also one of the reasons for preserving the box in the panel. This looks a lot cleaner to me, but I want to consider the suggestions about using different switches and about getting a newer annunciator panel. The legend on my current annunciator is pretty ratty looking and I haven't been able to find a replacement, so if a newer panel is an option I'd like to look at that. What's involved with swapping one configuration for another? Incidentally, I don't think the annunciator I have is original to this airplane as it doesn't match what's in the parts catalog for 27-0019.

Thanks for all of the suggestions!

Cheers,
Rick

[Zulee]

2 hours ago, Junkman said:

Oh NOOooo! What's the driver for that? I thought the shop had already coordinated with Aspen, and everything was laying flat in that regard. Or is it just that the paperwork at completion needs to make the rounds for the final okee dokee?

Cheers (and sympathy),
Rick

P.S. I guess you won't need me to give you a lift over to pick up your airplane anytime soon then. Maybe mine will be fixed by then....

Actually the "all clear" is related to the recycle issue reported by others flying the Aspen PFD and a recent SB.  Appears to be something to do with ADSB interface and software version...and flux capacitor (I think).  Anyway, I "assume" Aspen has figured out the issue and waiting on the FAA to sign off on it or whatever makes that world go around.

All I can say is, UGH !!

[larryb]

I suggest the TKS panel above the MFD. That is where I have mine, and I like it there.

 

 

[Aerodon]

Rick,

Your last iteration is getting better, but it still hurts my OCD a bit.  I prefer the GFC500 at the top of the stack, like corporate aircraft and airliners.

I'm taking the plunge and going both remote transponder and remote audio panel.  There is a way to make the GNC255 the 'failsafe com'.

And I did a C172 panel with the EDM900 down near the controls - it works well, and then your copilot can see the engine parameters.

Don

 

 

 

[Rick Junkin]

28 minutes ago, Aerodon said:

I prefer the GFC500 at the top of the stack

Thanks Don, I'm considering your thoughts on moving the GFC500. It gives the added benefit of being able to rest my hand on the glare shield in turbulence rather than on the mixture control as I do now. I like that idea. I should still be able to reach the comm panel with my thumb with my hand in the same position.

My thoughts on the real estate at the bottom right of the panel are that I want to have the things that I need to touch inflight close to my right hand. In doing that, I don't have room there for the EDM900. I don't expect to have much inflight manual interaction with the EDM900, other than select "NORMALIZE" mode in cruise, so it makes sense to have it in a lower priority position as far as right-hand reach goes. Yes, its more difficult to see from the right seat, but the EDM830 that I have installed on the left side now typically IS my copilot. And the two important things for emergency operation (MP and RPM) in the event of my incapacitation are still large enough to be read from the right seat if anyone is there. It may be a factor, though, for the potential purchasers when my heirs sell the airplane, so I'll give that some more consideration.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Cheers,
Rick

[Rick Junkin]

Latest iteration considering all inputs thus far (THANKS!!) and making some spacing corrections to allow for for the top panel mounting screws and adding some right panel details. I'm still thinking about moving the TKS Panel up over the right screen (MFD) but want to look at that some more. Same goes for comm panels, not completely sold on the Garmin at this point. I also considered installing a GTN650 rather than the 750 to allow me to keep everything in the center stack, but ruled that out due to personal preference. And for grins, including my current panel for comparison (there's some more "stuff" at the top of the right panel that I didn't add). Thanks again for all of the great inputs, as I'm doing this upgrade for me and my preferences along with an eye toward the future when my wife/kids will have to sell the airplane when I'm gone, assuming that I don't call it quits before then. Hopefully by that time everything I'm putting in now will be obsolete and this will be a moot point, but I digress...

Current panel:

"Dream" panel:

Cheers,
Rick

[toto]

3 hours ago, Aerodon said:

Rick,

Your last iteration is getting better, but it still hurts my OCD a bit.  I prefer the GFC500 at the top of the stack, like corporate aircraft and airliners.

I'm taking the plunge and going both remote transponder and remote audio panel.  There is a way to make the GNC255 the 'failsafe com'.

And I did a C172 panel with the EDM900 down near the controls - it works well, and then your copilot can see the engine parameters.

Don

 

 

 

It might be worth noting that the STC may not be flexible on the install location.  For the Piper install, the only available location is in an incredibly annoying spot near the pilot's left knee.  (Where the Piper factory A/Ps live.)

I have no idea what the Mooney installation addendum might say whenever it's published.  It could be less painful.

[Rick Junkin]

1 hour ago, toto said:

For the Piper install, the only available location is in an incredibly annoying spot near the pilot's left knee.  (Where the Piper factory A/Ps live.)

Hmmm... thanks for that, hadn't considered that the STC may be so restrictive. Possibly back to the bottom of the stack again... or possibly give me pause to consider other A/P options. I'm starting to like Don's location suggestion more and more.

Cheers,
Rick

[carusoam]

Does your TKS data get monitored by the JPI?

Having the level indicator would be helpful if incorporated there with a low level alarm...

Otherwise Having The TKS panel up by the annuciator panel will have it in the scan in a logical fashion like scanning the fuel levels...

Not a real critical detail, Rick... you just didn’t leave us any gift mistakes to uncover! 

Best regards,

-a-