Oil change advice _ which oil and filter?

[Lukon]

Everybody seems to use the oil in the red bottle and add a little MMO sometimes. The stuff in the blue bottle (Phillips 66) is WAY cheaper and comes recommended by Lycombing. Does anybody use the stuff in the blue bottle? I’m coming up on my first oil change, and I think I’m a CB if I understand the term correctly. Also which filter? Do you need to order from aircraft Spruce, or will a Purolator from Pep Boys do?

[Bob - S50]

  On 10/28/2018 at 3:22 PM, Lukon said:

Everybody seems to use the oil in the red bottle and add a little MMO sometimes. The stuff in the blue bottle (Phillips 66) is WAY cheaper and comes recommended by Lycombing. Does anybody use the stuff in the blue bottle? I’m coming up on my first oil change, and I think I’m a CB if I understand the term correctly. Also which filter? Do you need to order from aircraft Spruce, or will a Purolator from Pep Boys do?

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We use Phillips 66 20w-50XC year round with Camguard.  We also used it for seating our rings.  We can buy it locally for about $53/case.

For the filter we use the Tempest filter which I buy from Quality Aircraft Accessories for $19.50 including shipping.

[m20kmooney]

with Tempest oil filter.

Edited October 28, 2018 by m20kmooney

[carusoam]

First year aviation economics...

OK to be a CB. This will most likely reward you with the second year of aviation economics...

When it comes to aviation aisles at PB’s or Lowe’s... best to save that for door seals and other less critical items...

I have purchased aviation oil through my local automotive resource...

Stick to aviation parts... they have a way to attach the proper safety wires and things...

Learn the ropes from a qualified CB, or a good mechanic... you want to do this at least once... just to keep the oil from getting away...  

allowing the good oil to get away can be very expensive...

Parts and maintenance manuals can be very helpful.  Do you have these?

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

  On 10/28/2018 at 5:22 PM, m20kmooney said:

with Tempest oil filter.

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Technically the aeroshell multi weight is the worst oil for our engines because it's 50% synthetic. Our engines do much better on 100% mineral oil like the Phillips x-ctry multi weight or a straight weight oil. The Phillips has no additive package so it needs Camguard added. Together they're the bets option we have. But those that want to skip the additive, then Exxon Elite is much better choice since it's only 25% synthetic with nearly identical additive package to the Aeroshell. Probably after we switch to unleaded fuel we'll see a re-introduction to purely synthetic aviation oils like Mobil 1 which was a distaster years ago because of our leaded fuel. But for now 100% mineral oil is preferred.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited October 28, 2018 by kortopates

[m20kmooney]

  On 10/28/2018 at 5:46 PM, kortopates said:

Technically the aeroshell multi weight is the worst oil for our engines because it's 50% synthetic. Our engines do much better on 100% mineral oil like the Phillips x-ctry multi weight or a straight weight oil. The Phillips has no additive package so it needs Camguard added. Together they're the bets option we have. But those that want to skip the additive, then Exxon Elite is much better choice since it's only 25% synthetic with nearly identical additive package to the Aeroshell. Probably after we switch to unleaded fuel we'll see a re-introduction to purely synthetic aviation oils like Mobil 1 which was a distaster years ago because of our leaded fuel. But for now 100% mineral oil is preferred.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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We agree that fully (100%) synthetic oil presents challenges to engines with leaded fuel. See Mobil1 for example.

Aeroshell 15W50 is not fully synthetic. Also it was developed in cooperation among  Shell, Lycoming and Continental. 

https://prodepc.blob.core.windows.net/epcblobstorage/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_Kingdom_AeroShell_Oil_W_15W-50_(en-GB)_TDS.pdf

 

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by m20kmooney

[Guest]

  On 10/28/2018 at 3:22 PM, Lukon said:

Everybody seems to use the oil in the red bottle and add a little MMO sometimes. The stuff in the blue bottle (Phillips 66) is WAY cheaper and comes recommended by Lycombing. Does anybody use the stuff in the blue bottle? I’m coming up on my first oil change, and I think I’m a CB if I understand the term correctly. Also which filter? Do you need to order from aircraft Spruce, or will a Purolator from Pep Boys do?

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What engine model do you own?  Knowing this we can help you with the filter part number and additional advise.

Clarence

[kortopates]

  On 10/28/2018 at 9:18 PM, m20kmooney said:

This is an issue with fully synthetic oil. (See Mobil1.)

Aeroshell 15W50 is not fully synthetic. 

https://prodepc.blob.core.windows.net/epcblobstorage/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_Kingdom_AeroShell_Oil_W_15W-50_(en-GB)_TDS.pdf

 

 

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I said above in the first line that the Aeroshell multi-weight is 50% synthetic. Which is 50% PAO which has been shown to be unable to hold lead salts from 100LL in suspension, so they precipitate out in the form of a nasty sludge in your engine, propeller and governor. Mineral or Petroleum oil is much better at holding particulates in suspension than synthetic oil. Synthetic oil is a better lubricant with higher film strength, but the inability to hold particulate matter in suspension is its downfall so long as we are using leaded gasoline. 

 

[carusoam]

@Lukon,

another person trying to help you...  ^^^

Update your avatar to include your airplane model / engine type...

Clarence, my best guess is an M20C, based on other threads...

Best regards,

-a-

[m20kmooney]

  On 10/28/2018 at 9:39 PM, kortopates said:

I said above in the first line that the Aeroshell multi-weight is 50% synthetic. Which has been shown to be unable to hold lead salts from 100LL in suspension, so they precipitate out in the form of a nasty sludge in your engine, propeller and governor. Mineral or Petroleum oil is much better at holding particulates in suspension than synthetic oil. Synthetic oil is a better lubricant with higher film strength, but the inability to hold particulate matter in suspension is its downfall so long as we are using leaded gasoline. 

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Is there some data, as is for Mobil1, that indicates that the Aeroshell 15W50 formulation is unable to hold lead salts in suspension? How about for the Exxon Elite? Because Shell, and Exxon for that matter, clearly disagree. And this is not a new formulation. Aeroshell 15W50 has been around for almost 40 years! 

It would be interesting to see some data that looks at synthetic/mineral ratios. In other words how much of each attains a balance which optimizes the benefits of each. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by m20kmooney

[McMooney]

there is an article on the web which compares aviation oils, I think it's by Blackstone.

short and sweet:  if flown often, it doesn't matter, there isn't any significant difference among the majors ( exxon elite,  aeroshell, phillips )

personally I use aeroshell 15w50 and keep it moving.

the report is somewhere on the following site : https://www.blackstone-labs.com/engine-types/aircraft/

[DXB]

  On 10/28/2018 at 9:39 PM, kortopates said:

I said above in the first line that the Aeroshell multi-weight is 50% synthetic. Which is 50% PAO which has been shown to be unable to hold lead salts from 100LL in suspension, so they precipitate out in the form of a nasty sludge in your engine, propeller and governor. Mineral or Petroleum oil is much better at holding particulates in suspension than synthetic oil. Synthetic oil is a better lubricant with higher film strength, but the inability to hold particulate matter in suspension is its downfall so long as we are using leaded gasoline. 

 

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I'm no chemist, but given how widespread the use of Aeroshell 15W50 is, I suspect it has zero issue with holding the combustion particulates in blowby generated by leaded AVgas that proved to be the downfall of full synthetic Mobil AV-1.  Excluding that special issue for aviation engines, the benefits of synthetic oil seem compelling and are likely to apply to aviation engines as well as cars.

FWIW I have always used entirely mineral oil-based products in my plane - Phillips 20W50 + Camguard in the winter months and Aeroshell 100W + Camguard the rest of the year.   But that was simply the published recommendation from Mike Busch that I followed blindly when I got into this aircraft ownership adventure 4 years ago. I will consider the synthetic blend options once my current oil stock is exhausted.  

[Hank]

For what it's worth, I've been using AeroShell 15W50 and Champion filters since I bought the Mooney with a wet PPL eleven years ago. That's also what the previous owner used. Our A&P had a huge stack of AeroShell, both 100W and 15W50, and shelves full of Champion filters. Never saw less tha  10 cases of each oil stacked up in the corner.

[Marauder]

  On 10/29/2018 at 1:35 PM, Hank said:

For what it's worth, I've been using AeroShell 15W50 and Champion filters since I bought the Mooney with a wet PPL eleven years ago. That's also what the previous owner used. Our A&P had a huge stack of AeroShell, both 100W and 15W50, and shelves full of Champion filters. Never saw less tha  10 cases of each oil stacked up in the corner.

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I've been using Aeroshell 15W50 for my entire ownership. I did switch from Champion filters to Tempest about 5 years ago. 

[Marauder]

  On 10/29/2018 at 12:59 PM, DXB said:

I'm no chemist, but given how widespread the use of Aeroshell 15W50 is, I suspect it has zero issue with holding the combustion particulates in blowby generated by leaded AVgas that proved to be the downfall of full synthetic Mobil AV-1.  Excluding that special issue for aviation engines, the benefits of synthetic oil seem compelling and are likely to apply to aviation engines as well as cars.

FWIW I have always used entirely mineral oil-based products in my plane - Phillips 20W50 + Camguard in the winter months and Aeroshell 100W + Camguard the rest of the year.   But that was simply the published recommendation from Mike Busch that I followed blindly when I got into this aircraft ownership adventure 4 years ago. I will consider the synthetic blend options once my current oil stock is exhausted.  

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Well, I am a chemist but I don't have expertise in petroleum chemistry. I suspect that the petroleum based portion of Aeroshell 15W50 is capable of holding in suspension the lead that doesn't get burned in combustion. With Paul's access to Savvy, I would think there are owners who report lead levels in their oil analysis. If lead saturation is an issue, leading to sludge formation, I would suspect their oil analysis would show abnormally low lead levels against those who use fully petroleum based oils.

[jaylw314]

  On 10/29/2018 at 1:42 PM, Marauder said:

I've been using Aeroshell 15W50 for my entire ownership. I did switch from Champion filters to Tempest about 5 years ago. 

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IIRC, the Tempest filters have a magnet in them to trap metal particles.  Does anyone know if they still do this, and where the magnet is in the filter?  The last time we cut the filter, I didn't notice anything that looked like a magnet...

[Yetti]

If you live in the south then W100 is probably best.   If you live/fly in the north consider a multi weight for the winter flying

 

[DXB]

  On 10/28/2018 at 3:22 PM, Lukon said:

Also which filter? Do you need to order from aircraft Spruce, or will a Purolator from Pep Boys do?

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  For the O360-A1D in the M20C, you need a Champion S48110-1 or Tempest AA8110-2 filter.

BTW, the first time I changed oil on my plane, I paid an A&P his hourly rate to teach me - it  took about 3x as much time as it would have taken him on his own.  It was worth every penny - otherwise I would have made a colossal mess and maybe gotten myself killed if I had relied on my experience changing the oil in my car.

[jaylw314]

  On 10/29/2018 at 10:00 PM, DXB said:

  For the O360-A1D in the M20C, you need a Champion S48110-2 or Tempest AA8110-2 filter.

BTW, the first time I changed oil on my plane, I paid an A&P his hourly rate to teach me - it  took about 3x as much time as it would have taken him on his own.  It was worth every penny - otherwise I would have made a colossal mess and maybe gotten myself killed if I had relied on my experience changing the oil in my car.

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And you would have filled your "swear jar" trying to do the safety wiring the first time!

[Hank]

  On 10/29/2018 at 10:00 PM, DXB said:

  For the O360-A1D in the M20C, you need a Champion S48110-2 or Tempest AA8110-2 filter.

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My O360-A1D uses Champion 48110-1 filters. Has for at least the 12 years I've owned it, and it's what the IA removed while showing me the difference between airplane and automobile oil changes.

[DXB]

  On 10/30/2018 at 4:02 PM, Hank said:

My O360-A1D uses Champion 48110-1 filters. Has for at least the 12 years I've owned it, and it's what the IA removed while showing me the difference between airplane and automobile oil changes.

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sorry - typo- corrected above

[kortopates]

  On 10/29/2018 at 9:56 AM, m20kmooney said:

Is there some data, as is for Mobil1, that indicates that the Aeroshell 15W50 formulation is unable to hold lead salts in suspension? How about for the Exxon Elite? Because Shell, and Exxon for that matter, clearly disagree. And this is not a new formulation. Aeroshell 15W50 has been around for almost 40 years! 

It would be interesting to see some data that looks at synthetic/mineral ratios. In other words how much of each attains a balance which optimizes the benefits of each. 

Expand  

 

 

  On 10/29/2018 at 12:59 PM, DXB said:

I'm no chemist, but given how widespread the use of Aeroshell 15W50 is, I suspect it has zero issue with holding the combustion particulates in blowby generated by leaded AVgas that proved to be the downfall of full synthetic Mobil AV-1.  Excluding that special issue for aviation engines, the benefits of synthetic oil seem compelling and are likely to apply to aviation engines as well as cars.

FWIW I have always used entirely mineral oil-based products in my plane - Phillips 20W50 + Camguard in the winter months and Aeroshell 100W + Camguard the rest of the year.   But that was simply the published recommendation from Mike Busch that I followed blindly when I got into this aircraft ownership adventure 4 years ago. I will consider the synthetic blend options once my current oil stock is exhausted.  

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Aeroshell 15W50 is definitely the most popular multigrade within the GA market and its the only oil we discourage using at Savvy because of it being 50% synthetic. There are advantages of synthetic oils but they don't carry over to our piston engines operated on leaded gas the way they do for automotive and turbine engines. Corrosion is the #1 reason our piston aircraft engines fail to make TBO. They don't typically wear out, they rust out; especially the owner flown fleet that tend to be flown irregularly that we belong too. Our point at Savvy is it makes more sense to use an oil that provides the best pro's and least con's for our piston engines operated on leaded gas and flown irregularly and that's where 100% mineral oil in a single weight oil such as Aeroshell W100 which provides the best corrosion protection in contrast to Aeroshell 15W50 poor anti-corrosion properties. Its is also known for leaching out Copper (see high levels of Cu in oil analysis), causing premature TCM starter adapter failures (per the folks that overhaul them) and also aggravating oil leaks. In Mike's Engine book, he dedicates a full chapter, Chapter 17 Lubrication, where he goes through the various oils and discusses these issues including all the pro's and con's  as well as additives, oil consumption and oil analysis. Mike principal concerns are engine longevity and why he sticks to a single weight 100% mineral oil with Camguard with frequent oil changes and believes its one of the most important factors in enabling his engines to go way beyond TBO.  But as one remarked above, these are not new formulations and what Mike is saying is not new news either, is was the same stuff I was taught in A&P school that stems from what engine re-builders have been speaking about on oils for about for as long as we've had these products. 

Edited October 30, 2018 by kortopates

[StevenL757]

A topic discussed many times here...it really depends on the engine.  For the IO550 platform...Exxon Elite 20W50 year-round.  Tempest AA48109 filter (the tall one).  Every 25-30 hours.

[Shadrach]

I use Camguard because I have read several corrosion studies that show it offers the best protection against internal corrosion. I use Phillips XC because Ed Kollin (the developer of Camguard) has stated several times that the base stock is among the best.  The combination scored highest in AvConsumer's corrosion cabinet test.

[Lukon]

  On 10/28/2018 at 9:33 PM, M20Doc said:

What engine model do you own?  Knowing this we can help you with the filter part number and additional advise.

Clarence

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It has an aftermarket filter adapter on it. I think originally it just had a metal screen. I’ll get the part number off the filter, next time I’m out there. I was more wondering why not use an automobile filter to save money.