LASAR maintenance review

[Clancy]

LASAR review

 

As many of you know Lake Aero Styling and Repair has been bought and is now operating under new management. I couldn’t find much in the way of a review of LASAR with the new owners, so I wanted to share my story. I have owned a 74 F for the past 5+ years. I wanted to take the plane to an MSC for an annual this year. I also wanted to explore the option of doing an owner-assisted annual. The folks at LASAR were accommodating to the idea and eager to work on my plane. They came in on the high range of quotes at “$2,700-3,200”, but it was not significantly higher than the other MSC in the region that quoted me a $2,500 flat rate. LASAR also had a banner on their homepage advertising 10% off of service if the plane is dropped off by the end of the month(August). So, accounting for the discount, it was a wash in airplane dollars. The other MSC was also quite busy and not open to the owner-assisted annual. My schedule snowballed, so the option of doing an owner assist was out this year. I called LASAR back and asked what the revised estimate would be. They explained that they charge the same whether its an owner assist or not. So it was a done deal. We made arrangements and my wife and I flew the plane to Lakeport on a Wednesday evening with the intent of dropping the plane off after hours. 

 

A friend was going to be there in a couple hours out to pick us up in a 210, so we had some time to kill. We noticed a few guys were hanging around the ramp area, so I decided to go introduce myself. It turned out that we had inadvertently run into the new CEO of LASAR and a few of the other new folks that worked there. They were exceptionally friendly and talked about their hopes and goals with LASAR in both continuing the legacy and expanding the business. Sometimes when you chat with people who work in aviation, especially in maintenance, there can, unfortunately, be an air of burn out in the conversation. It was rather refreshing to be met with enthusiasm. My wife and I went off into town to grab some dinner at a place they had recommended while we waiting for our ride home. After a nice meal, we came back to LASAR and were somewhat surprised to find the LASAR group sitting in a circle of chairs in front of the hangar doors. They graciously invited us over and we ended up sitting around with them for a while, chatting about Mooneys, the recent fires, who was who, where they came from and their business goals. They wanted a grow a business that already had a good reputation into more, they wanted to have a good relationship with customers and avoid the “surprise bill at the end.” I was ready to be a lifetime customer based on that interaction alone. We were picked around 10 PM and to my surprise, they had stuck around.

 

I had to travel for business on Thursday and when I settled in to check my email Friday morning, I had this email(names and sensitive figures removed, I will refer to myself as “customer”):

 

“Good afternoon (customer).  

               (Name removed) here, I need to get some information from you so that I can get it all into my system.

1) I need your address.

2) Contact number.

Also I need to collect a down payment for your annual so can you provide me with a card? Feel free to call me…”

——————-

A deposit for an annual? That seemed a bit odd. So I replied and intentionally omitted the CCV code until I knew what exactly was being asked:

—————————-

“Hi (name removed),

Sorry yesterday was a travel day

Sure thing.

(Requested information removed)

For my accounting, how much are you planning on running for a deposit?

Thanks”

 

—————————

“Good morning (customer),

               Thank you very much for that info. I am going to get all that info where I need it and as far as the deposit goes. Is it ok if I run your card for $3,220.00 which is the cost of the Annual.”

———————

I was busy with work and missed several calls and a voicemail stating they were going to go ahead and run the payment but needed the CCV code. 

I was… flabbergasted. 

There was no discussion about requiring full payment in advance for a service. Mind you, they hadn’t touched the plane yet. So how did we end up at the high end of the quoted range? I had a few quick sanity check conversations to make sure I wasn’t imagining things, so I replied to the service manager and CC’d the owner. 

———————

 

(Name removed), I finished up at work for the day and saw the email and missed calls. I am not sure if you have me mixed up with someone else? I just dropped off (Tail number removed) Wednesday night.

 

To be honest I am not OK with the idea of you running the card for $3220 as a "deposit." I was not told ahead of time that's how you guys do business.  

 

I also have a few issues

1.) You told me that an annual with your shop is $2,700+ over the phone. I understand that's a baseline estimate. But, if this is a deposit, that means that the work is yet to be completed? How did it get straight to $3220? It's not the cost, its the concept of this happening after you guys telling me that is not how you do things.

2.) Paying a deposit for a service of this nature is not typical and again it was not stated as a condition. I was so-so on the idea of a deposit when you brought it up, but I was assuming that you guys wanted money up front for consumables or a small amount of insurance in addition to already possessing the airplane, the logs and the keys. 

3.) We haven't talked about the work required on the airplane.

4.) You have a banner on the front page of the website advertising 10% off of service if the plane is scheduled and brought in by August 31st? 

 

I hope you understand my reaction. When I met you guys the other night, I thought it was flat out incredible that everyone was spending time together late after hours, with an electric air of invigorated, enthusiasm about the company. That is the kind of endorsement you can't get anywhere else. You pretty much had me as a customer for life, based on that alone. So I am hoping that this is a mix-up. 

 

 

————————

 

The service manager replied.

 

————————

Hello (customer), So first of all let me apologize for not having mentioned anything to you about a down payment prior you dropping off you’re A/C.

I know that it is not standard practice in the aviation industry to make down payments on work, however it is our practice here at LASAR.

So for not having mentioned that to your prior, we will waive the down payment for you’re A/C.  So that I don’t make that mistake again let me go ahead and inform you that, if we do any work outside of the annual we do generally get progressive payments on work that is performed. With that being said we will not do any work on your aircraft outside of the annual without your approval.

               As to the 10% discount on labor for the Annual, you are correct. It slipped my mind this morning when I gave you that number. The cost of the Annual will be between $2,990 and $3220 minus a 10% discount on the annual labor.

               There is still an electric air of invigorated, enthusiasm about the company. We are still the same group of guys you got to hang out with the other night. I do sincerely apologize for the lack of communication about any deposit.

 

Thank you very much for your time in expressing your concerns, please have a wonderful evening and I look forward to making you a very happy and satisfied customer!

—————-

 

This didn’t really smooth things over. It was backpedaling, and excuses. If I had been in town, I very well may have asked them to not work on the plane and made arrangements to pick it up. But I was committed at this point. In the end, it would have cost me more time and money to go get the plane on principal. 

—————-

“(Name removed), 

I spent the weekend wrestling with this. No matter how I look at it, that was a very disappointing opening to doing business with you guys. Ethically speaking, you were ready to overcharge me for work that from my vantage point has not been started yet. What am I to think? 

 

So here is where I am at. Despite what this looks like and sounds like, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I understand your policy and I will play along. This is because I effectively do not really have a choice at this point. We are going to have a long talk when all of this is done. 

 

Moving forward, I am going to ask you to provide me with detailed quotes for additional work required. Once we have that discussion and come to a written number, I will provide you with payment information.”

 

———————————-

 

They began the work on the plane and had the annual completed at the end of the following week with the unsurprising list of squawks. I provided CCV information for the completion of the annual and discussed the items they found. My tentative plans were to pick the plane up the following Friday provided they had everything completed. I got a call from them that following Friday that they had just begun doing the post annual flight testing and were going to need more time to finish and were working on the issues that I wanted them to address form the get-go. This wasn’t a big deal, but at the same time they had the plane for 2.5 weeks at this point. I wasn’t able to get to the plane until Monday anyway after some travel complications but had a tight schedule with vacation plans. Monday they called and still weren’t ready, I explained that was fine if they were ok holding into the plane until the following week when we returned. They were accommodating, finished up the work and held onto the plane. I ended up deciding to pay them to ferry the plane to me as I was getting a little uncomfortable repeatedly imposing and canceling with pilot friends who were gracious enough to offer me a ride. 

 

Review

 

Quality of work (Great)

I will say the quality of work they did was top notch. They found several things that the previous shop had missed or done incorrectly. I have since flown the plane for about 16 hours without any issues, and I am thrilled that they were able to get the PC system working again without much fuss. 

 

Time management (OK)

I dropped the plane off the evening of August 22nd and the plane was technically ready for pick up around September 19th. Work done was the annual and a handful of basic squawks. I wasn’t in a rush to get the plane back and explained that to them. I was not clear why they waited so long to start working on a few squawks I had told them about in the beginning. 

 

Communication (Marginal) Policies (Poor)

The billing interaction was just plain bad. The annual ended up running just under $2,700 in labor with the discount and about $500 in parts.(oddly convenient) 

As for the conversation I wanted to have, I was able to talk with the production manager after flying the ferry pilot back and provided some constructive feedback. I completely understand asking for a deposit on a capital intensive project like say, a panel upgrade. But for a regular service that is predominantly labor ? That's simply not necessary, especially when they have the aircraft in their possession. They have legal protections from deadbeat customers, which I hope there are few and far between. I also prefer to do business like this with cashiers checks, not credit cards. I greatly prefer to closed transaction nature they provide. I am also not thrilled about my credit card information potentially floating around on someone's desk. My intent here is not to rake these guys over the coals, I genuinely like the group, I believe they have the talent and are headed in the right direction. The production manager was apologetic and receptive. So hopefully they will move their policies into a more normalized platform. They believe in the company and are infectiously enthusiastic about the potential. Of equal importance, they are stewards of one of the great resources in the Mooney community, they need our support and constructive feedback for it to carry on and grow.

[carusoam]

Great first post, Clancy!

Got any pics of your plane to go with that?

Hope we don’t have to wait another four years for your next post... 

The people at Lasar have always been great to work with, including worldwide parts service and shipping.

Dan is an MS goto guy for all parts related technical details.

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

After what they went through this summer with fires and everything and just buying a business I'm sure things are tight for them. Since the annual has to be paid for anyway I wouldn't have had any problem with them putting the flat fee on my credit card, less the agreed upon discount. Granted, it's not standard practice but I have empathy for small businesses. They have payroll to meet every week and overhead every month. I agree that the communication should have been better. Since it turned out to be a great annual, they fixed the PC without charging much at all and they ferried the plane back to you, I don't see the need for the negative review. When I hear about nightmares that people sometimes have with annuals at other shops it sounds like they did a great job.

[steingar]

A little off, but I'd go for it for superior service.  But they should be way, way, way up front about doing financial things so oddly.  And what about that Mooney took a MONTH to annual?  Its a 1974 M20F, not the bloody Space Shuttle.  Unless the squawks were numerous and pervasive it shouldn't take a month to annual a Mooney.  

[Piloto]

If got your own hangar and an air compressor you can do the annual and maintenance yourself with the assistance of an AI at a much lower cost. Have the Mooney Manuals and tools required at hand and you will be done in a week.

José

[FloridaMan]

I had a similar experience with LASAR on my PPI this past spring: inconsistencies with what I was told on the phone and what showed up as my estimate. It took them a while to do the PPI, but they disclosed that they were busy up front and when I called them and mentioned the price difference they made it right. The discrepancy was they quoted the PPI as an annual when I got the estimate in my email. I called them and they changed it to a PPI and we were all happy again. 

 

Edit to add: My overall experience with LASAR was very good and has been positive over the years. I think this is just a growing pain that they need to figure out as inconsistency in expectations invites further suspicion. 

[bonal]

I don't think the OP was making a negative comment but was very informative about his experience. I can say that the Mendocino complex fire had a big impact as not only a TFR that lasted almost a month but also ground operations were not permitted by Calfire so even if the airplanes were already on site no run ups or movement was allowed. My last annual was done just a few weeks ago and I was not required to pay a deposit but since I have been doing business with them for five years and have a good relationship with them they did not require it. I will say that doing the owner assist does not reduce the flat rate and IMHO think it should to some extent. I'm sure there are cases where having someone with minimal mech skills could even add to the total labor. In my case they have learned that I am very capable doing this work and for a big part of the work am left alone to complete these tasks. My last annual took 4 days and was completed for under 3 AMU's. Lake Aero is an important resource for us Mooney owners and it would be a bad thing if they don't survive.

[TheTurtle]

LASAR gave me free beer at the flyin and dan knows every part in a mooney.  Got my biz.  That said I'd never take my plane anywhere for an annual.  Last one was $800 for my IA to look over my shoulder and tell me my safety wire was shit.

[tony]

Are you practicing your safety wire so he doesn't give you grief next year?

[DustinNwind]

Just got a PPI done at LASAR 5 days ago. This is my first Mooney and thought - why not take it to the folks that know these ships in and out. Scheduled the PPI 2 weeks out, was given a quote then, then flew her in at the date scheduled.

Chris and Tom let me help the whole way through which is how I wanted to learn about my new plane. They were kind and  knowledgable. New ownership has a great vision for the future and the energy to accomplish it. For those prices it would be nice to get a crew car and updated shop.

Edited September 26, 2018 by DustinNwind

[Clancy]

My intent was to share the experience in a thorough fashion to include it's positive and negative elements as any good recounting should. Bonal is correct in my intent. The information is free for anyone to do with as they please. 

Carusoam- Thanks. I often find what I need in through searching and reading along the current threads. So I guess it has been 4 years! I apologize, I prefer to keep quiet with personal information over the internet. I will shoot you a PM though to introduce myself. I have used LASAR for parts before and I agree, they are a tremendous resource.  

Lancecasper- I empathize with the position they are in with a new business and devastating fires in the area. I want to see these guys do well, they have the pieces to get there. To be clear, I paid them to address the PC system and paid them to ferry the plane.  

 

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, Clancy said:

Lancecasper- I empathize with the position they are in with a new business and devastating fires in the area. I want to see these guys do well, they have the pieces to get there. To be clear, I paid them to address the PC system and paid them to ferry the plane.  

PC system - I understood you paid them, but the fact that they actually had the knowledge base to get it working "without much fuss" and without having to take it to one of the autopilot specialty shops at great cost is worth a lot. Many people fly half way across the country and spend days trying to sort it out and leave several thousand dollars poorer and the problem still isn't fixed. In fact the number one thing I got out of the review was in between the lines: if you have a Brittain autopilot that needs to be looked at - bring it to LASAR.

Ferry the plane - Again I understood that they were paid to do that, but the fact that they were willing to ferry the airplane back to you also shows that they are customer service oriented. There aren't many shops willing to do that.

I'm glad you explained your intent in the last post because in reading the first post it was hard to tell what type of review it was. It was a little all over the map. At one point you were considering picking up the airplane and not have them do the work but then later you mention that the work was top notch. You mentioned to them that you were in no rush to get the airplane back but then couldn't figure out why they didn't start in on the squawks sooner. But in re-reading it I see both sides. If I was trying to build a long term relationship with a shop I think I would have covered all of the these points again with them after it was all over rather than put them out in a public forum.

On a side note, I don't understand why shops don't charge the flat rate for an annual up front, you know you'll have to pay it anyway. I wouldn't have any problem with that, especially if it is my first time to their facility. The people who work on the airplane will earn the wages that week and they need to be paid that week not weeks later. The other charges that are agreed upon during the inspection could be paid upon delivery. That seems fair, but again communication is the key. The last few years when I've been to the dentist or doctor they collect your co-pay and deductible upon arrival. If there's more during the visit then you settle up at the end.

[gsxrpilot]

I'm in agreement with @LANCECASPER and should suggest this to my local shop. Any Mooney Service Center will quote you a price for a base annual. The cost is usually a bit more than that because of squawks found, parts required, upgrades requested. But there is always a base price for an annual. There's no reason a shop shouldn't ask for the base price of the annual when you drop off the plane. It's also reasonable to pay for any parts up front.

As someone on the other end of the transaction, I think I might like this as well. I pay a bit up front and a bit later when I pick it up. 

[CWM20f]

I’ll have to take the other side.  I’ll pay for services rendered when the job is complete.  Sometimes this is the only way to light a fire under someone to get the job completed (not specifically aviation).  

[SantosDumont]

Since they take a credit card I'd have no issues with them charging up front for a set fee annual.  It's not like I'm immediately out that cash, I'm not going to pay that on my statement for 15-20 days.  Worst case If they totally screw something up, or don't do the work I can do a chargeback and dispute the charges. 

It does drive costs higher since LASAR will somehow pass the 3% merchant fee on with higher rates, but it makes everyone happy.  LASAR gets semi-immediate cash for operating expenses.  The customer doesn't have an immediate cash expenditure and has leverage to dispute the charge.

[M016576]

8 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

 

Ferry the plane - Again I understood that they were paid to do that, but the fact that they were willing to ferry the airplane back to you also shows that they are customer service oriented. There aren't many shops willing to do that.

I'm glad you explained your intent in the last post because in reading the first post it was hard to tell what type of review it was. It was a little all over the map. At one point you were considering picking up the airplane and not have them do the work but then later you mention that the work was top notch. You mentioned to them that you were in no rush to get the airplane back but then couldn't figure out why they didn't start in on the squawks sooner. But in re-reading it I see both sides. If I was trying to build a long term relationship with a shop I think I would have covered all of the these points again with them after it was all over rather than put them out in a public forum.

If LASAR did not have some sort of plane ferrying program- they would not remain in business (at least not as a shop that performs maintenance- perhaps as a parts/stc center).  Lampson/lake port is just too inconvenient of an area to get a plane in and out of “on your own” and the closest population center is quite a drive away.  That, and the nearest competition MSC (Top Gun) is also top notch and in a far more convenient location.

Thanks to the OP for posting his experience- it’s a great comparison point for those looking into Mooney ownership, maintenance, or moving to Nor Cal.  We’ve said it before on this forum- but it might be nice to have a single thread or “compendium” of owner experiences with shops... like a YELP for service centers/A&P’s.  I do remember some people being against this idea....

[Guest]

I’ll offer a different prospective.  As a shop owner for more than 25 years, I seldom take a deposit up front, seldom ask for progress payment.  Most customers leave the shop with their airplanes with a handshake and the invoice to follow.  

This has served me well with only a few bad accounts over the years.

Clarence

[rpcc]

I hope you realize your post likely hurts their business.  That is exactly what you do not want to do if you hope to get more professional service from them.  It seems you got your plane back better than ever and - other than the communications was a little lumpy, that should have been the end of your post.  Yikes - this is a small business - reputation is everything to them your problem should have been handled by walking into the owners office and saying thanks and offering some feedback - not blasting them on a public forum.  

 

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

11 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

 If I was trying to build a long term relationship with a shop I think I would have covered all of the these points again with them after it was all over rather than put them out in a public forum.

Yikes.  I'm in the service business too with my Truck Dealership.  I am sure glad the local truckers don't do an on-line forum.  We try hard to meet everyone's expectations but service work, selling labor, is one of the most challenging forms of making money in a business.  Lasar is essentially a new business now, and that comes with growing pains for the new owners.  Having a chance to "learn" from their experience with the OP without having the dirty laundry hung out in the front yard would have been much more productive.

 

On 9/23/2018 at 7:36 PM, Clancy said:

My intent here is not to rake these guys over the coals, I genuinely like the group, I believe they have the talent and are headed in the right direction. The production manager was apologetic and receptive. So hopefully they will move their policies into a more normalized platform. They believe in the company and are infectiously enthusiastic about the potential. Of equal importance, they are stewards of one of the great resources in the Mooney community, they need our support and constructive feedback for it to carry on and grow.

I believe your "report" was not intended to be hurtful.............but............if your ending comment is true, the support and constructive feedback should be between you and Lasar, not the nationwide Mooney community.

Just my honest thoughts as one who's been on the other side of this as a service provider.

Tom