I have a new mistress

[JRam]

26 minutes ago, Marcopolo said:

@JRam,

 

  Congrats on the purchase and hope the transition is a painless one for you.  Just an FYI, the 231 is not "Turbo Normalized", it is Turbo Supercharged.  It has the ability to build manifold pressure over and above sea-level pressure up to critical altitude (15k 16k normally).  You'll want your instructor to be very familiar with the workings of your turbo system.

 

Ron

That's a concern I have. I clearly have a lot to learn, but as I understand it isn't easy to find a CFI with Turbo Mooney experience. So I'm trying to get help wherever I can find it. I invested in a year with SavvyMx and have been reading all posts I can to try to best understand how to fly both safe and maximize the health of the aircraft. And I did get a name of a CFI close that has a bunch of experience with a J, so I am hopeful to gain some modern mooney instruction even if not specifically turbo experience.

I'm certainly behind the power curve (pun intended) here. But I'm edumacating myself as much as possible. So I'll take any and all bits of advice or information.

[Marcopolo]

6 minutes ago, JRam said:

I'm certainly behind the power curve (pun intended) here. But I'm edumacating myself as much as possible. So I'll take any and all bits of advice or information.

Well you've come to the right place.  The flying characteristics of the K to the J are not that far apart, but the extra nose length does require some familiarity.  Slips in the J, not an issue, slips in the K, keep the speed higher than normal or don't do them at all, in addition to that I find that I use a bit more nose up trim for landing in the K over the J.  The engine management practices between the K and J, different neighborhood altogether!  Plenty of reading here in these parts (MooneySpace) to help you get a provisional handle on what to expect, but you need the guy in the right seat to have that handle as well or better than you in order for you to be able to concentrate on specific tasks at hand while transitioning.

 

Ron

[jclemens]

Paging Mike Elliott. I highly recommend getting in touch with him and have him do your initial training at my place when you pick this up. I don’t know who the J driver you found is, so I can’t speak to his/her qualifications. But I certainly can Mike’s. This is an intercooled and wastegated 231, a hamfisted Pilot/instructor can destroy it in one flight. 

[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, jclemens said:

Paging Mike Elliott. I highly recommend getting in touch with him and have him do your initial training at my place when you pick this up. I don’t know who the J driver you found is, so I can’t speak to his/her qualifications. But I certainly can Mike’s. This is an intercooled and wastegated 231, a hamfisted Pilot/instructor can destroy it in one flight. 

+1 Get ahold of Mike.  This is an easy airplane to fly, and even an easy engine to manage... but only if you KNOW how. Learn it right from Mike, and enjoy that wonderful airplane for years to come.

[JRam]

Mike is obviously the man, and many folks recommended him to me but because of that, he gets booked up pretty quick. But he put me in touch with @DanM20C and I'm equally as excited to learn from him. So I'll be able to learn from an experienced 231 pilot and I've already learned a lot after just one phone call with him. 

[Mooney in Oz]

@mike_elliotteven gets booked up on this side of the world. 

[Hank]

MAPA has some articles by Bob Kromer about the turbo models. For general education, check D Max and Don Kaye's websites. It may be worthwhile to see if Don Kaye wilk be in tbis side of the country anytime soon.

And read up on everything @jlunseth has posted about turbo engine management.

[jlunseth]

She is really pretty.

Let me give you a couple of starting pointers to keep the engine intact while you are learning.

1. There is never, ever a reason to firewall the throttle below about 22,000 feet.  If your instructor starts punching the throttle in, (“Let me show you how to do this,”) take control and get a different instructor.  The 231 is different from every normally aspirated aircraft and most turbos in this regard.  On takeoff, put in about 50-60 percent of the throttle stem and let the turbo kick in, you will feel it, then ease the throttle in to 36” MP for takeoff.

2.  All full power ops such as takeoff and climb are always full rich.  You do not lean to peak EGT or anything like that.  The 360 needs 22.5-24 GPH for full power ops. Leaning it out while making full power is a good way to put your TIT over redline.

3. Don’t operate, or let an instructor convince you to operate, at any “squared” power setting.  They all want to do that because it is what they learned, and it is wrong.  That said, there are some approach speed settings in that vicinity, but you get the picture, squared power settings are low to very low in this engine.

4. Don’t operate at any cruise power setting where the fuel flow has a 12 in it (as in 12 something GPH).  Fly rich of peak at first, to get used to your plane.  Keep fuel flow up around 13.3 at cruise power settings.  At low power settings, under 65% HP, you can fly leaner if you like as long as the engine is smooth, but not at power settings above that level.

Have a great time.

[mike_elliott]

9 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Don’t operate, or let an instructor convince you to operate, at any “squared” power setting.  They all want to do that because it is what they learned, and it is wrong.

Hummm...you must not be flying with the right instructors  . Being in Flying Cloud, have you flown with Bruce Jaeger or Dan Bass? But your point is spot on, Jram will need (and has) someone who knows how to fly his new to him Mooney properly. I am sorry I couldn't work this in timely, but glad that Dan could. KHEF is a cool airport to boot. I've only been there once as one of the founding Honor flight pilots, but really enjoyed the wwII display.

Thanks everyone for the vote of confidence. I really enjoy working with so many of you from all corners of the globe!

[jlunseth]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Hummm...you must not be flying with the right instructors  . Being in Flying Cloud, have you flown with Bruce Jaeger or Dan Bass? But your point is spot on, Jram will need (and has) someone who knows how to fly his new to him Mooney properly. I am sorry I couldn't work this in timely, but glad that Dan could. KHEF is a cool airport to boot. I've only been there once as one of the founding Honor flight pilots, but really enjoyed the wwII display.

Thanks everyone for the vote of confidence. I really enjoy working with so many of you from all corners of the globe!

I did my commercial with Bruce, but I have also flown with school instructors who right off the bat want to push what they know from NA ops, which can hurt the engine.  Its not that they are not good instructors, they just don’t know.  If there is one thing I could change about my first flights with the plane, it would be that, learning right off the bat from someone who actually knows how to operate it.

[mike_elliott]

24 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

I did my commercial with Bruce, but I have also flown with school instructors who right off the bat want to push what they know from NA ops, which can hurt the engine.  Its not that they are not good instructors, they just don’t know.  If there is one thing I could change about my first flights with the plane, it would be that, learning right off the bat from someone who actually knows how to operate it.

It is a path many have went down, and like you, wished they had began transition with a Mooney specific instructor or an instructor who was intimately familiar with their model of Mooney. The same can be said of most planes, really. Your typical flight school instructor is very well versed in trainers and can teach proper ops in them far better than I could, I am sure. The principal of primacy comes into play here.

[JRam]

So I finally picked her up last weekend and had some amazing instruction and support from @DanM20C . If you haven't had a chance to hear Dan's story, you are missing out. He is a WEALTH of knowledge on safety and my M20K and without him, the plane would probably still be down in Florida. I think he enjoyed the aircraft but is regretting that I now have his number and won't leave him alone!

It was a gorgeous flight back until I got into Virginia and the low ceiling made it fun. Unfortunately, there isn't any room at the inn here in Manassas, so if anyone happens to know of a hangar available, please HELP! My new baby is sitting out in the elements at the moment. 

The before panel:

The After Panel:

Training day:

Thank you all for all the help and support! Now, if only the weather would get just good enough for me to get her back out!

[mike_elliott]

7 hours ago, JRam said:

So I finally picked her up last weekend and had some amazing instruction and support from @DanM20C . If you haven't had a chance to hear Dan's story, you are missing out. He is a WEALTH of knowledge on safety and my M20K and without him, the plane would probably still be down in Florida. I think he enjoyed the aircraft but is regretting that I now have his number and won't leave him alone!

It was a gorgeous flight back until I got into Virginia and the low ceiling made it fun. Unfortunately, there isn't any room at the inn here in Manassas, so if anyone happens to know of a hangar available, please HELP! My new baby is sitting out in the elements at the moment. 

The before panel:

The After Panel:

Training day:

Thank you all for all the help and support! Now, if only the weather would get just good enough for me to get her back out!

Glad it all worked out for you!! Congrats! Dan is super.

[81X]

8 hours ago, JRam said:

So I finally picked her up last weekend and had some amazing instruction and support from @DanM20C . If you haven't had a chance to hear Dan's story, you are missing out. He is a WEALTH of knowledge on safety and my M20K and without him, the plane would probably still be down in Florida. I think he enjoyed the aircraft but is regretting that I now have his number and won't leave him alone!

It was a gorgeous flight back until I got into Virginia and the low ceiling made it fun. Unfortunately, there isn't any room at the inn here in Manassas, so if anyone happens to know of a hangar available, please HELP! My new baby is sitting out in the elements at the moment. 

The before panel:

The After Panel:

Training day:

Thank you all for all the help and support! Now, if only the weather would get just good enough for me to get her back out!

Just out of curiosity, are you only getting 18GPH at 36" or are you at reduced power?  If 36, the last mechanic probably followed the continental fuel setup spec to the "T" and didn't ensure full fuel flow as per the intercooler manual.  It will certainly run, but hot.  For some reason, mechanics (even great ones like the one I use) love to set the fuel flows per the SID and don't adjust for the intercooler.  

Heat is definitely the enemy in the 231's; I was taught to fly mine by a guy who learned from the previous owner, who made it past TBO on the original cylinders!  I'm at 1250SFRM and still well into the 70's on compressions.  I run 36" up to altitude (unless you're going really high) and 28"/2500 in cruise which keeps heat at bay, even here in SC summers although I trail cowl flaps when needed.  Keep the cylinders below 380 and your engine will love you.  I also typically run well ROP, which usually means about 1500-1520 TIT/13.3 GPH in cruise

Also, I also replaced my JPI700 with the 830- pretty cheap upgrade and you don't have to wait for everything to scroll- I really liked that upgrade a LOT.  

I've only owned my 231 for a year but learned a TON from this site and the other resources people mentioned.  

You'll LOVE the 231- it's just about as awesome as the 252 for typically far less money, but as others mentioned, attention to power and heat management is key to keeping it that way.  

 

 

[JRam]

12 minutes ago, 81X said:

Just out of curiosity, are you only getting 18GPH at 36" or are you at reduced power? 

We were at around 33" at that time and in a climb. I think it was coming down on me while I was taking the picture. At 36" in the climb I was up over 20...don't exactly remember what the number was.

I definitely want something better than the 700 but haven't yet decided on accepting the 830 now or going straight for the 900. It's a big price difference for sure, but the question is how long I will keep it as my monitor. 

[JRam]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

Glad it all worked out for you!! Congrats! Dan is super.

Thanks Mike, and thank you for the recommendation!

[81X]

16 minutes ago, JRam said:

We were at around 33" at that time and in a climb. I think it was coming down on me while I was taking the picture. At 36" in the climb I was up over 20...don't exactly remember what the number was.

I definitely want something better than the 700 but haven't yet decided on accepting the 830 now or going straight for the 900. It's a big price difference for sure, but the question is how long I will keep it as my monitor. 

Good deal on the FF, it sounds like you're where you need to be.  

For the 700- Depends if you want to get rid of your factory gauges or not.  For me, I couldn't stomach the price and reworking the panel, especially since the 900 didn't get me a whole lot more than the 830 and the 830 used the 700 probes whereas I don't think the 900 can.  However, the 900 and a panel rework will cause many people here have severe panel envy- makes it look awesome!  

[Pritch]

Similar planes and similar panels.

Pritch

[DanM20C]

On 9/16/2018 at 9:18 AM, JRam said:

I think he enjoyed the aircraft but is regretting that I now have his number and won't leave him alone!

I did enjoy your beautiful 231.  But I enjoyed meeting you and Kelly even more!  Call anytime.  I think I can speak for the entire Mooney community saying we are glad to have you BACK!

17 hours ago, 81X said:

Just out of curiosity, are you only getting 18GPH at 36" or are you at reduced power? 

As Justin mentioned above the MP had crept back in that photo.  His is adjusted at the bottom end of what I would like to see.  37" was giving us 22ish gph.  CHT's were well behaved but it wouldn't hurt to bump it up 1-2gph.

Cheers,

Dan

 

[81X]

On 9/16/2018 at 11:39 PM, Pritch said:

Similar planes and similar panels.

Pritch

Wow, mine too!  Really similar!! Except I like the location of your 830 better than where mine is placed  

Edited September 18, 2018 by 81X

[JRam]

10 minutes ago, 81X said:

Wow, mine too!  Really similar!! Except I like the location of your 830 better than where mine is placed

How do you like that G5? I almost did exactly the same thing to get roll steering but ended up deciding against it. It was one of the things I kept adding and taking away.

[Nippernaper]

I'm about to take my J in for a panel redo, and am going with the G5 as the HSI (but not the AI). Would love to hear how you like it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[81X]

52 minutes ago, JRam said:

How do you like that G5? I almost did exactly the same thing to get roll steering but ended up deciding against it. It was one of the things I kept adding and taking away.

Love it.  Adding GPSS was really nice- that thing would fly GPS routes and non precision approaches way better than without GPSS, it's remarkable.  Also, auto-slewing is a really cool workload reducer.  My hangar-mate put it in his 340 and can't believe how much smoother that aircraft flies just by predicting and holding track better.  In my opinion, the bigger benefit for me is having a backup AI/AH.  It's probably the lightest (minus 8 pounds!) way to get backup AI.  Flying partial panel is fun and all, but having done it before in actual, I don't care to repeat it.

Full disclosure, my G5 was more forced than purely elective although it was on my "to upgrade within 1.5 years" list.  My BK remote DG gyro needed an overhaul and it was only marginally more to do the G5 upgrade, maybe only 1AMU or so additional.