Not sure how to proceed

[Dream to fly]

Getting super close to getting the plane running and been dealing with the Fargo FSDO for the past several weeks.  It has been made real clear to me the plane has lost it ability to fly.  Apparently I don't have paper to go with my new to me 530W and some other equipment.  So now the plane is a paperweight.  How does one go about getting the needed STCs.  I have 8130s but that is not good enough.  The STC allows Bernoulli's principle to actually work.

So worried about paperwork but we'll allow an AP to use Walmart tire tube patch kits to repair bladders and look the other way.

[Spurious Moppet]

I've wondered about this myself. There has got to be a way since tons of people install used GPS and presumably get the correct paperwork for it somehow.

[Oldguy]

You might pinging @Alan Fox for an informed opinion. He can probably provide some guidance or know who can.

[N201MKTurbo]

You should be able to get a field approval using a copy of the STC as approved data.

[bob865]

I found this when I was looking.  It looks like a 337 is all that is needed to install used avionics.  I got to that becuase I said yes/maybe to a "possible appreciable change in W&B" by installing a different device than was originally installed.  This makes sense to me from looking at my logs where I found 337s for all the avionics changes through time on my plane.

I could definitely be wrong, but I'm now interested in this topic becuase I'm in the market to do exactly this

http://www.valavionics.com/uploads/2/1/5/0/21502568/tso_pamphlet.pdf

[Marauder]

Isn’t there some additional paperwork for the GPS approach capability? I know I was handed a significant paper trail for the installation (antenna placement, checkout procedures).


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[OR75]

"approved for VFR only" 

[kortopates]

I have no idea what Garmin would charge for their STC for used avionics, but the orginal STC is not transferable and one for your plane must be obtained from the owner of the STC (if you really need it). Since Garmin owns it and can issue you a new one,  I would call them.

A 337 is generally always filed for avionics installs even though some installs can be considered a minor mod. But typically a GPS interfaces with an autopilot, and other instruments making it more than a minor. The 337 is what references the STC. With the STC it bypasses the local FSDO and just needs signoff from your IA before being sent to OKC. But without an STC you need field approval from your local FSDO. I have no idea if a field approval 337 is a possibility without a STC - but that may be another option. But if the Fargo FSDO is the one the telling you that you need the proper paperwork they should be able to give you your options. But getting the STC from Garmin would be the cleanest approach. 

Edited July 31, 2018 by kortopates

[Dream to fly]

I have no idea what Garmin would charge for their STC for used avionics, but the orginal STC is not transferable and one for your plane must be obtained from the owner of the STC (if you really need it). Since Garmin owns it and can issue you a new one,  I would call them.
A 337 is generally always filed for avionics installs even though some installs can be considered a minor mod. But typically a GPS interfaces with an autopilot, and other instruments making it more than a minor. The 337 is what references the STC. With the STC it bypasses the local FSDO and just needs signoff from your IA before being sent to OKC. But without an STC you need field approval from your local FSDO. I have no idea if a field approval 337 is a possibility without a STC - but that may be another option. But if the Fargo FSDO is the one the telling you that you need the proper paperwork they should be able to give you your options. But getting the STC from Garmin would be the cleanest approach. 

That is apparently the only way in this case. Direct from Garmin Dealer. I'm sick about the whole thing. Nothing can be easy or simple and like the concept of engines if it's not like it was when it was built it can't work. I'm tired of beating my head against a wall. We protect the stupid and let them fornicate while the rest of us work hard so they don't hurt themselves. I appreciate the replies and hope to be airborne next month.

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[kortopates]

1 minute ago, Dream to fly said:

That is apparently the only way in this case. Direct from Garmin Dealer. I'm sick about the whole thing. Nothing can be easy or simple and like the concept of engines if it's not like it was when it was built it can't work. I'm tired of beating my head against a wall. We protect the stupid and let them fornicate while the rest of us work hard so they don't hurt themselves. I appreciate the replies and hope to be airborne next month.

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Ah, if Garmin says you need to get one from one their dealers, that goes back to their rule that only an authorized Garmin dealer is able to install their avionics in certified airplanes. (Only experimental installs and allowed to be installed without a authorized dealer.) So its sounding like your sin is trying to bypass installation by an authorized Garmin dealer? 

Bummer Joe, but that's always been the case AFAIK. 

[Dream to fly]

Ah, if Garmin says you need to get one from one their dealers, that goes back to their rule that only an authorized Garmin dealer is able to install their avionics in certified airplanes. (Only experimental installs and allowed to be installed without a authorized dealer.) So its sounding like your sin is trying to bypass installation by an authorized Garmin dealer? 
Bummer Joe, but that's always been the case AFAIK. 

Yup my fault. Seems to be a common issue with me. Apparently I need to drink more Kool aid. My wife is right time to sell.

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[kortopates]

I am sure a Garmin authorized installer/dealer can get you straightened out and paper work filed in short order. Hopefully there is one nearby to you.

After all, you want a relationship with one anyway since if you want to get keep it's firmware up to date or should you have an issue that requires service, you'll soon discover only a Garmin dealer can help you.  

Don't get too frustrated, your far from the first, more like the millionth new owner to be learning that although you may own the aircraft the regs are very strict about what you can and can not do to it when it comes to certified aircraft. We've all been there as new owners. 

[jetdriven]

The STC is printed right there in the installation guide for the G430W.  You don’t need to pay them for that . Also although the installation manual  say that only a Garmin authorized installer can install this there’s been other owners who have gotten around this. They can mandate the quality and type of installation but they can’t say who does it. 

FWIW We installed a used GTN750 and although it was done at a Garmin authorized dealer, it was really a pretty simple affair they install the hardware did the appropriate tests and checks and then made a log entry stating that they installed a GTN750 per the installation manual etc.

Edited July 31, 2018 by jetdriven

[N201MKTurbo]

Have you asked the principal inspector at the FSDO if he would approve the install?

At the recient maintenance symposium I attended one of the speakers, who was a principal inspector, said in no uncertain terms that they would accept an existing STC as approved data for a field approval of an avionics install on an aircraft not listed on the STC.

You should have all your ducks in a row, ELA, WB etc. fill out the 337 and send him a complete package and get his opinion on if it is good enough. If not ask him what you need to change. 

You should have your IA do this interaction.

[bob865]

Am I looking at this wrong?  I just went to Garmin's website and downloaded the STC..... 

https://support.garmin.com/support/manuals/manuals.htm?partNo=010-00412-01&language=en&country=CA

Couldn't you fill this out, add it to the POH, and be legal?

http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-00356-03_F.pdf

[Dream to fly]

Am I looking at this wrong?  I just went to Garmin's website and downloaded the STC..... 
https://support.garmin.com/support/manuals/manuals.htm?partNo=010-00412-01&language=en&country=CA
Couldn't you fill this out, add it to the POH, and be legal?
http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-00356-03_F.pdf

That is what I did. But for the 530W. Problem is I'm not an IA. The issue is my work may not be correct or accurate and/or I might have taken a short cut, etc. So for someone to sign me off in good faith isn't going to happen. I fully respect that. I was thinking that workmanship would carry over to courtesy. I'm done with aviation in general and this was the final nail in the coffin. Once the plane is flying tested and true it's going away. I'll venture into something different. Thinking about buying a motor home a pusher with a car and a boat in tow cruising the interstates with a class D license and basic minimum insurance.

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[jaylw314]

15 minutes ago, bob865 said:

Am I looking at this wrong?  I just went to Garmin's website and downloaded the STC..... 

https://support.garmin.com/support/manuals/manuals.htm?partNo=010-00412-01&language=en&country=CA

Couldn't you fill this out, add it to the POH, and be legal?

http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-00356-03_F.pdf

No, the STC is tied to one specific airframe and issued by the STC owner (Garmin in this case).  Even if it is not written on the STC, there's a paper trail back through the FAA via the form 337 that is required to be valid.

Also, the only thing that goes in the POH is the AFMS, the valid STC ends up in the aircraft log.

[Dream to fly]

This just tops it.  I was looking for pin in another thread for the EDM 900 and could not get a cross.  I tried several times to get to technical support to order from JPI but could never get thru.  Called aircraft Spruce and they could order them but it would be a week out.   I remember seeing them, using them, but for the life of me and my feeble little pea size brain I couldn't remember where.  Then it dawned on me they are standard PT2319 connectors that every manufacture uses.  Pins are available at FORD, GM even Dodge!  I just about fell over seeing an automotive/diesel connector in the aviation world, how will the law of physics ever adjust.  The number for the connector assembled with 6in leads is 88862238.  The terminals are J-37490-6A. 

[larryb]

In my opinion to be successful in GA ownership you need to develop relationships. You cannot do this alone. You need a trusted A&P and avionics shop. If you install a 530 and then go looking for a shop to bless it things are not going to end well. If you are successful at this folks will go the extra mile to help you out.

[Dream to fly]

16 minutes ago, larryb said:

In my opinion to be successful in GA ownership you need to develop relationships. You cannot do this alone. You need a trusted A&P and avionics shop. If you install a 530 and then go looking for a shop to bless it things are not going to end well. If you are successful at this folks will go the extra mile to help you out.

I totally agree with you.  I had a trusted AP who was working with me.  Unfortunately He had to leave the profession leaving me with the mess.  Now I am having to deal with things I wasn't planning on dealing with.  My contention is that people treat GA like it has mystical properties and without special tools, paper, and secret codes the plane can't fly.  The vintage birds were hand built with tools that were worn out and paper licenses that were  found in cracker jack boxes and for years they flew just fine.  The feds get involved and you'd swear the second coming was about to happen.  If it was built by man, a person with a manual can fix it.

[tony]

Just get your A&P to generate a 337 that says installed 530 per STC whatever and site the Garmin STC number on the form.  The 337 will go to Oklahoma because its using FAA approved data. Then your A&P makes a log book entry and signs.  Get a copy of the flight manual supplement and keep it in your airplane.  You should be good to go.  

[thinwing]

9 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

That is what I did. But for the 530W. Problem is I'm not an IA. The issue is my work may not be correct or accurate and/or I might have taken a short cut, etc. So for someone to sign me off in good faith isn't going to happen. I fully respect that. I was thinking that workmanship would carry over to courtesy. I'm done with aviation in general and this was the final nail in the coffin. Once the plane is flying tested and true it's going away. I'll venture into something different. Thinking about buying a motor home a pusher with a car and a boat in tow cruising the interstates with a class D license and basic minimum insurance.

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I think after reading the tone and intent of your posts,that is probably a good idea

[jaylw314]

49 minutes ago, tony said:

Just get your A&P to generate a 337 that says installed 530 per STC whatever and site the Garmin STC number on the form.  The 337 will go to Oklahoma because its using FAA approved data. Then your A&P makes a log book entry and signs.  Get a copy of the flight manual supplement and keep it in your airplane.  You should be good to go.  

AFAIK, the STC is only approved data if it is issued by the STC holder to your airplane.  I don't know how that would be discovered or enforced, but if push came to shove, someone could find the paper trail (or lack of paper trail)...

[PTK]

On 7/30/2018 at 10:45 PM, Dream to fly said:

  Apparently I don't have paper to go with my new to me 530W and some other equipment.  So now the plane is a paperweight.  How does one go about getting the needed STCs.  I have 8130s but that is not good enough.  The STC allows Bernoulli's principle to actually work.

This discussion you're having now you probably should've had before you bought the units. You're asking for someone to install the unit you bought used and assume the responsibility on your behalf. That's not an easy thing. Expect to pay more to have it installed than if you bought it from a dealer. The dealer has a margin built in on the units they sell and install. A used install has no margin for them and they will not assume the responsibility and all that it entails. As the buyer you have to assume the responsibility of making sure what you bought is what you think you bought and this means installed in the airplane. 

Without proper documentation you cannot legally put the unit in a certified airplane. That doesn’t stop some people from doing it everyday. But finding someone to do it for you is not easy. I stopped in to a shop away from home to change the oil a couple of years ago and I had a filter with me. They refused to use my filter because they could not trace the paper trail as to where it came from. It may have been extreme overkill but on the other hand it is an FAA repair station and I understand they need to remain in business.

You have 8130's and that's a good thing. 

Maybe an option would be to go to a dealer and see how much they want to assume the responsibility and install it for you. You may find that you would be better off to have gone to the dealer initially by passing these headaches.

Another option may be to go back to the seller and/or issuer of the 8130 and see if they'll install it and how much it would be. 

[Dream to fly]

This discussion you're having now you probably should've had before you bought the units. You're asking for someone to install the unit you bought used and assume the responsibility on your behalf. That's not an easy thing. Expect to pay more to have it installed than if you bought it from a dealer. The dealer has a margin built in on the units they sell and install. A used install has no margin for them and they will not assume the responsibility and all that it entails. As the buyer you have to assume the responsibility of making sure what you bought is what you think you bought and this means installed in the airplane. 
Without proper documentation you cannot legally put the unit in a certified airplane. That doesn’t stop some people from doing it everyday. But finding someone to do it for you is not easy. I stopped in to a shop away from home to change the oil a couple of years ago and I had a filter with me. They refused to use my filter because they could not trace the paper trail as to where it came from. It may have been extreme overkill but on the other hand it is an FAA repair station and I understand they need to remain in business.
You have 8130's and that's a good thing. 
Maybe an option would be to go to a dealer and see how much they want to assume the responsibility and install it for you. You may find that you would be better off to have gone to the dealer initially by passing these headaches.
Another option may be to go back to the seller and/or issuer of the 8130 and see if they'll install it and how much it would be. 

That is just it, I had the discussion I had all my ducks in a row and all the right people involved. That company closed.

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