Cost for a factory new IO-360 for a J

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, dr_caligari said:

Hi,

i was in a similar situation two year ago. I went with the factory remanufactured engine that has two seperate magnetos and is the only option (apart from new engine) that comes with a Zero time engine and brand new log book. Those engines are finished on the same assembly line as the factory new engines. You also getting all new hardware  See pics below.

 An overhauled engine is not a zero time engine. 

Tim

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The factory overhaul has time continuing while the factory remain has zero time. They are built from the same parts on the same assembly line. The principal differences are a 2 year warranty, zero hours in the logbook since new, and another $5,500 in price for those features. But you can screw the dataplate for each engine to the other and call as such.  

[jaylw314]

33 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The factory overhaul has time continuing while the factory remain has zero time. They are built from the same parts on the same assembly line. The principal differences are a 2 year warranty, zero hours in the logbook since new, and another $5,500 in price for those features. But you can screw the dataplate for each engine to the other and call as such.  

I buy the argument that a rebuilt engine has an advantage that some or all major components have come out of engines that survived a previous engine.  As such, intuitively, they would be less prone to "infant mortality" failures from manufacturing.  

[RobertGary1]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

The factory overhaul has time continuing while the factory remain has zero time. They are built from the same parts on the same assembly line. The principal differences are a 2 year warranty, zero hours in the logbook since new, and another $5,500 in price for those features. But you can screw the dataplate for each engine to the other and call as such.  

In actual fact anytime I’ve been ready to put a deposit down on an overhaul the reseller has always called me to tell me lycoming is offering me a rebuilt at the same price. So I’ve not had to pay the difference. 

The only bad deal is factory new That SOB lost a rod at 1050hrs  I’ll never pay for factory new again  Reman is just as good 

-Robert 

[toto]

4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

The factory overhaul has time continuing while the factory remain has zero time. They are built from the same parts on the same assembly line. The principal differences are a 2 year warranty, zero hours in the logbook since new, and another $5,500 in price for those features. But you can screw the dataplate for each engine to the other and call as such.  

This has been widely discussed before, but I've always found Mike Busch's description of reman engines interesting:

Now, when TCM or Lycoming builds up a factory rebuilt engine (colloquially but incorrectly referred to as a "factory reman"), it pulls some "anonymous" case halves from one pile, an "anonymous" crankshaft from another pile, and so forth. When the engine is completely assembled, it gets a new data plate, a new serial number, and a new logbook.

The logbook starts out at zero time-in-service. Why zero? Because there's no other reasonable figure to put in the logbook. The case halves are certainly not zero-time, but there's no record of how much time they've accrued. The crankshaft may not be new, but there's no record of how much time is on the crank, either. And so on.

In short, the "zero-time" logbook that comes with a factory rebuilt engine in no way implies that the engine is "newer" or "better" than a field overhaul. All it implies is that the reused components in the engine are of unknown heritage...nobody knows how long they were in service prior to the time then were cleaned up, inspected, and reused in your engine!

https://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182849-1.html

[dr_caligari]

Here’s a good video from the factory explaining the process of a factory rebuild engine. 

 

[Candy man]

On 6/16/2018 at 3:39 PM, RobertGary1 said:

In actual fact anytime I’ve been ready to put a deposit down on an overhaul the reseller has always called me to tell me lycoming is offering me a rebuilt at the same price. So I’ve not had to pay the difference. 

The only bad deal is factory new That SOB lost a rod at 1050hrs  I’ll never pay for factory new again  Reman is just as good 

-Robert 

Any suggestions of where I can go with my deposit for overhaul and get the rebuilt for the same price? Have a 1970 C and it’s time. Any advice or suggestions.

 

Lawrence 

[jaylw314]

25 minutes ago, Candy man said:

Any suggestions of where I can go with my deposit for overhaul and get the rebuilt for the same price? Have a 1970 C and it’s time. Any advice or suggestions.

 

Lawrence 

?? You can only get a "rebuilt" engine from Lycoming?

[ArtVandelay]

Have a 1970 C and it’s time. Any advice or suggestions.

Are you actually doing this based on time (TBO)?

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

?? You can only get a "rebuilt" engine from Lycoming?

Lycoming sells all three. Overhaul, rebuilt, and new. Differences is the tolerances. I use Air Power out of Texas. 

-Robert

Edited August 1, 2018 by RobertGary1

[Candy man]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

?? You can only get a "rebuilt" engine from Lycoming?

Not sure

 

2 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Are you actually doing this based on time (TBO)?

Yes we are passed TBO and the engine was last overhauled in the 80’s. One of my partners spoke to AirPower inquiring about doing an overhaul. And if I understand correctly ( and I may not) they won’t Overhaul an engine that is more than 36 years old which means they will only do a rebuilt. We get a zero time engine but the quote was 28,843. Again I don’t understand all of it. I have 2 great partners an A&P and a CFI. But neither is on mooney space where the best information is exchanged. SO what’s the best option for a zero time or overhauled engine? We have the 0360-A1D.

 

Lawrence

[carusoam]

Ask for pricing for three versions...

Check the Lycoming website to see if they give prices... Continental gives prices and details for their engines...

1) Overhauled

2) Factory remanufactured

3) Brand new

these are the key words that have individual meanings... and who can do them...

2 & 3 Get new 0 timed log books as if they were brand new...

OH’d can be as good as the others depending on who is doing it and what is included...

OH’d can reuse a whole bunch of parts and sub systems... to save a whole bunch of money...

 

I went Factory reman... for my last engine...

There is no best answer that fits all...

but having two partners sure helps...  

Best regards,

-a-

 

[carusoam]

https://www.lycoming.com/services/rebuilt-engines

hmmm....

So much for remanufactured, Lyc seems to call it rebuilt...

Give em a call.... to at least get a comparison with another shop or two...

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

https://www.lycoming.com/services/rebuilt-engines

hmmm....

So much for remanufactured, Lyc seems to call it rebuilt...

Give em a call.... to at least get a comparison with another shop or two...

Best regards,

-a-

Tolerances are tighter for Lycoming rebuilt vs factory overhaul. Main difference is an extra year of warranty. 

-Robert

[ArtVandelay]

Tolerances are tighter for Lycoming rebuilt vs factory overhaul. Main difference is an extra year of warranty. 
-Robert

But I believe overhauls by most popular engine shops are also to new tolerances.
Since the OP appears to be doing overhaul only because they have reached TBO, I think the best option is to keep flying it.

[Candy man]

I’m not the op but it was a great thread to hijak. The engine needs overhauled we have a plug that fouls during low power settings. I know valves have been replaced over the years but the fouling is still there. So the question begs. Where and how to overhaul, exchange the engine?

[gsxrpilot]

http://www.jewellaviation.com/default.htm

 

[carusoam]

Oil fouled plugs...?

are more of a sign of worn cylinders... or rings... or both...

For more knowledge about what is going on inside the cylinders... use a dental cam down the spark plug hole...

Be looking for things around the valves and the surface of the cylinder...

really worn cylinders are missing the cross hatching that helps keep oil in the right place... and other things like scratches might be there...

It would be expensive to OH an engine when a cylinder needs repair...  could be as simple as a bad oil ring...

Questions come up like...

1) how many hours on the engine since it’s last OH?

2) Got an engine monitor?  How hot do you allow your CHTs to go?

Some people run there engines hard and accept the CHTs that come with the territory... High CHTs wear a bit quicker and start using more oil as a sign that the cylinders are needing some attention... another hint... the oil gets really black much sooner and smells like the exhaust that it is picking up...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Lycoming sells all three. Overhaul, rebuilt, and new. Differences is the tolerances. I use Air Power out of Texas. 

-Robert

I was confused by @Candy man's question.  You can only get a rebuilt engine from Lycoming.  Everybody else can only sell an overhauled engine.

 

2 hours ago, teejayevans said:

But I believe overhauls by most popular engine shops are also to new tolerances.
Since the OP appears to be doing overhaul only because they have reached TBO, I think the best option is to keep flying it.

AFAIK, overhauls are done to "overhaul" specs in Lycoming's overhaul manual.  New and rebuilt engines are done to "new" specs, but Lycoming does not publish the specs or a rebuilt procedure for shops to use.

 

2 hours ago, Candy man said:

The engine needs overhauled we have a plug that fouls during low power settings. I know valves have been replaced over the years but the fouling is still there. So the question begs. Where and how to overhaul, exchange the engine?

The expense and risk of overhauling a motor is generally the repairs and assessment of everything in the crankcase.  I don't think anything there is causing the plug fouling in the cylinders, which can be easily and inexpensively (relatively, anyway) replaced.  There are plenty of threads on different schools of thought, but there's one school of thought that believes:

• overhauls should only be done for a specific reason (crankshaft or camshaft wear, for example)
• TBO should be otherwise ignored
• If there is a cylinder problem, just replace the cylinder involved

Mike Busch does webinars on EAA that are worth watching.

I can't of a good reason to believe one plug fouling is worth of overhauling the engine.  Plug fouling could be something as simple as poor operator technique.  Worst case scenario, you have a piston leaking oil, which calls for replacing the cylinder.  Unless there are other problems or there is evidence of something wrong in the crankcase as well we haven't heard about, replacing a cylinder would be what, $3-4k?  My rebuilt engine in 2012 dollars was $50-60k (glad I didn't pay for that!)

[ArtVandelay]

My rebuilt engine in 2012 dollars was $50-60k (glad I didn't pay for that!)
AFAIK, overhauls are done to "overhaul" specs in Lycoming's overhaul manual. New and rebuilt engines are done to "new" specs, but Lycoming does not publish the specs or a rebuilt procedure for shops to use.

You did pay for it, sort of...planes with less time on their engines are priced higher.

Then what do they mean “Our engine overhauls are done not only to factory new tolerances but to the high test standards possible within economic practicality. Parts replacement policy exceeds the factories requirements.”??

[jaylw314]

1 minute ago, teejayevans said:

You did pay for it, sort of...planes with less time on their engines are priced higher.

Then what do they mean “Our engine overhauls are done not only to factory new tolerances but to the high test standards possible within economic practicality. Parts replacement policy exceeds the factories requirements.”??

OK, OK, I know I paid for it, I was trying to convince myself I didn't! 

I assume that's a sales pitch from an engine overhauler.  I imagine it means nothing really--they'd still use the overhaul manual and overhaul specs, but they claim to do things so fantastically well that the results exceed the unpublished new specs.  I have no idea how you could prove or disprove that.

[ArtVandelay]

OK, OK, I know I paid for it, I was trying to convince myself I didn't! 
I assume that's a sales pitch from an engine overhauler.  I imagine it means nothing really--they'd still use the overhaul manual and overhaul specs, but they claim to do things so fantastically well that the results exceed the unpublished new specs.  I have no idea how you could prove or disprove that.

Sales pitch? You have a low opinion of aircraft engine shops. Pretty sure FAA would put a shop out of business if they falsified the work they performed. Anyway I believe it only means the parts they use have to be within new tolerances, so no reusing slightly worn parts, the cost is past on to you. If using new cylinders that eliminates most of the worn parts, except camshaft and crankshaft of course.

[RobertGary1]

10 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Sales pitch? You have a low opinion of aircraft engine shops. Pretty sure FAA would put a shop out of business if they falsified the work they performed. Anyway I believe it only means the parts they use have to be within new tolerances, so no reusing slightly worn parts, the cost is past on to you. If using new cylinders that eliminates most of the worn parts, except camshaft and crankshaft of course.

I doubt that. Even Lycoming doesn’t use new specs for cranks and cams. That adds an extra $15k to the overhaul cost. 

-Robert 

[jaylw314]

8 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Sales pitch? You have a low opinion of aircraft engine shops. Pretty sure FAA would put a shop out of business if they falsified the work they performed. Anyway I believe it only means the parts they use have to be within new tolerances, so no reusing slightly worn parts, the cost is past on to you. If using new cylinders that eliminates most of the worn parts, except camshaft and crankshaft of course.

No I'm just generally a cynical bastard   Yes, I assumed they meant they have a higher threshold for using new parts, and while they are perfectly free to advertise they make engines "to new tolerances," they can still only legally write "overhauled to overhaul specifications" in the logbook.

[John Mininger]

Has anyone actually heard of cam/lifter spalling problems since Lycoming started supplying Diamond Like Carbon (DLC) coated flat lifters?

I have not.

[ArtVandelay]

Has anyone actually heard of cam/lifter spalling problems since Lycoming started supplying Diamond Like Carbon (DLC) coated flat lifters?
I have not.

When did they start doing this, it may be too early to tell, figure average is 100 hours per year, we’d have back to 1998 to start surveying owners.