Scottsdale Comanche crash.

[kmyfm20s]

  On 4/11/2020 at 6:31 AM, ragedracer1977 said:

Yet for whatever crazy reason, you can go on a bender and be legal to fly 8 hours after your last drink, but you can’t have a single glass of wine at a 5pm dinner and fly home at 9pm

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Unless your flying a plane full of passengers.

[Guest]

  On 4/11/2020 at 6:31 AM, ragedracer1977 said:

Yet for whatever crazy reason, you can go on a bender and be legal to fly 8 hours after your last drink, but you can’t have a single glass of wine at a 5pm dinner and fly home at 9pm

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In Canada it’s been raised to 12 hours minimum from last drink to flight.

Clarence 

[neilpilot]

  On 4/11/2020 at 6:31 AM, ragedracer1977 said:

Yet for whatever crazy reason, you can go on a bender and be legal to fly 8 hours after your last drink...........

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Not if, as result of that "bender" they have  "an alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater in a blood or breath specimen. "

[ragedracer1977]

  On 4/11/2020 at 2:18 PM, neilpilot said:

Not if, as result of that "bender" they have  "an alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater in a blood or breath specimen. "

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Yet, it's totally legal to fly with an alcohol concentration of 0.03.  but it's not legal to fly with an alcohol concentration of 0.00 if you had a glass of wine 4 hours ago 

[jaylw314]

  On 4/11/2020 at 3:00 PM, ragedracer1977 said:

Yet, it's totally legal to fly with an alcohol concentration of 0.03.  but it's not legal to fly with an alcohol concentration of 0.00 if you had a glass of wine 4 hours ago 

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Why would one assume that just because your BAC is recently down to zero, that the alcohol levels in your brain and CSF are zero as well, or that the impairment is immediately over?  Again, as an analogy, just because you are no longer hitting your head with a hammer, it does not necessarily mean your head stops hurting right away...

And while the PIC is ultimately responsible for the safety of the flight, that doesn't mean the impairment of a student pilot couldn't (or shouldn't) be considered a contributing factor.  After all, the instructor had not had an opportunity to evaluate the performance of the student yet, since he had not flown with him before (and in any case may have had no awareness of any subtle impairment), and the accident occurred within a couple minutes of takeoff.  He might have only had the reassurance of the other instructor or, just as likely, no information at all.  Whether assessing a new student with 4 other people in theplane is a smart idea is, of course, a whole other question.

[ragedracer1977]

  On 4/11/2020 at 3:19 PM, jaylw314 said:

Why would one assume that just because your BAC is recently down to zero, that the alcohol levels in your brain and CSF are zero as well, or that the impairment is immediately over?  Again, as an analogy, just because you are no longer hitting your head with a hammer, it does not necessarily mean your head stops hurting right away...

And while the PIC is ultimately responsible for the safety of the flight, that doesn't mean the impairment of a student pilot couldn't (or shouldn't) be considered a contributing factor.  After all, the instructor had not had an opportunity to evaluate the performance of the student yet, since he had not flown with him before (and in any case may have had no awareness of any subtle impairment), and the accident occurred within a couple minutes of takeoff.  He might have only had the reassurance of the other instructor or, just as likely, no information at all.  Whether assessing a new student with 4 other people in theplane is a smart idea is, of course, a whole other question.

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We've gone off topic. 

Is it legal to fly with a BAC of 0.03 if your last drink was more than 8 hours ago? Yes or No.

I'd it legal to fly with a BAC of 0.00 if your last drink was 4 hours ago? Yes or No.

I'm not asking if it's smart or good ADM, just whether it's "legal" or not.

[carusoam]

Looks like they wrote a law.... because it was needed.

Then they updated it... because it needed an update.

Legal vs. intelligent is always a good topic... in the end... if you are legal and dead at the same time.... that isn’t intelligent...

I bet a perfect law is the enemy of a good law...

 

If nothing else we are discussing the value of good judgement...

Some people don’t have this particular skill on their most sober day days... fortunately, it is not a requirement to have good judgement skills to be human... 

 

So...

1) The plane needed to be operating at full power to have ordinary control expectations...

2) According to the recent report...  the engine lost a valve spring... and was no longer capable of producing rated power...

3) There was no indication that the pilot recognized the lowered power condition... even when directly asked by the tower...

4) The copilot gets a lot of attention, but had not reached the level of even having student pilot / medical certificate...
 

5) Lesson to be learned...

6) if you expect to be climbing out above 500fpm....  

7) you just had a longer T/O run than expected...

8) your climb rate is anemic compared to expectations....

9) The tower is asking you if everything is OK?

10) In a specific plane that you have never flown at MGTW before...

11) At what point do you ask for assistance?

12) Would the ship’s JPI (if it had one) have given an indication of the errant valve challenge?  (Most likely?)

13) make the most gentle turns possible, keeping as many open fields in sight as possible...

14) fly the plane...

prayers for the lost airmen and friends...

PP thoughts only, sharing ideas how to possibly recognize an unexpected lowered power condition...

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

  On 4/11/2020 at 6:31 AM, ragedracer1977 said:

Yet for whatever crazy reason, you can go on a bender and be legal to fly 8 hours after your last drink, but you can’t have a single glass of wine at a 5pm dinner and fly home at 9pm

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Which is doubly frustrating when some of the airport dining establishments are either really nice bars (e.g., Sedona) or microbrews (e.g., Havasu).

[jaylw314]

  On 4/11/2020 at 6:31 AM, ragedracer1977 said:

Yet for whatever crazy reason, you can go on a bender and be legal to fly 8 hours after your last drink, but you can’t have a single glass of wine at a 5pm dinner and fly home at 9pm

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  On 4/11/2020 at 3:26 PM, ragedracer1977 said:

We've gone off topic. 

Is it legal to fly with a BAC of 0.03 if your last drink was more than 8 hours ago? Yes or No.

I'd it legal to fly with a BAC of 0.00 if your last drink was 4 hours ago? Yes or No.

I'm not asking if it's smart or good ADM, just whether it's "legal" or not.

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I was only specifically addressing your question as to "for whatever crazy reason."  If my comment came across as questioning your knowledge of the FAR's, that was not my intention.

[ragedracer1977]

  On 4/11/2020 at 8:42 PM, jaylw314 said:

 

I was only specifically addressing your question as to "for whatever crazy reason."  If my comment came across as questioning your knowledge of the FAR's, that was not my intention.

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It's a crazy reason with no basis in reality.  A guy can go fly an airliner with a .03 BAC 8 HOURS after his last drink.  That means the dude was blitzed. There's no way he's as sharp as a guy who had a single beer or a glass of wine with lunch and wants to fly home 5 hours later.  

That's crazy. 

[Andy95W]

You could petition the FAA to change the rule, but I fear you would open yourself up to all kinds of unwanted attention from them...

[aviatoreb]

  On 4/11/2020 at 9:43 PM, ragedracer1977 said:

It's a crazy reason with no basis in reality.  A guy can go fly an airliner with a .03 BAC 8 HOURS after his last drink.  That means the dude was blitzed. There's no way he's as sharp as a guy who had a single beer or a glass of wine with lunch and wants to fly home 5 hours later.  

That's crazy. 

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I think you aren't right.  If you have a .03BAC 8 hours before flight will you really be .00 then 8 hours later?  I think .00 is also required for flight, no matter how long its been since you had a drink.

[ragedracer1977]

  On 4/12/2020 at 12:36 AM, aviatoreb said:

I think you aren't right.  If you have a .03BAC 8 hours before flight will you really be .00 then 8 hours later?  I think .00 is also required for flight, no matter how long its been since you had a drink.

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It doesn't matter what your BAC was 8 hours before, as long as you don't have another drink, and your BAC is under .04 when you actually take the controls.  14 CFR 91.17.  Seeing as they say don't fly under the influence, and then seem to define under the influence as .04 and over, it would be legal to fly at a .03 BAC, as long as it's been 8 hours since your last drink. 

But it would not be legal to fly with a BAC of 0.00 if you had a beer 5 hours earlier.

This isn't a big deal to me, I don't drink hardly at all.  It's just a very strange way of dealing with it

 

[aviatoreb]

  On 4/12/2020 at 1:31 AM, ragedracer1977 said:

It doesn't matter what your BAC was 8 hours before, as long as you don't have another drink, and your BAC is under .04 when you actually take the controls.  14 CFR 91.17.  Seeing as they say don't fly under the influence, and then seem to define under the influence as .04 and over, it would be legal to fly at a .03 BAC, as long as it's been 8 hours since your last drink. 

But it would not be legal to fly with a BAC of 0.00 if you had a beer 5 hours earlier.

This isn't a big deal to me, I don't drink hardly at all.  It's just a very strange way of dealing with it

 

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I thought under the influence was anything greater than 0.00.  And yes separately no drinking In any case more recent than 8 hrs.

[ragedracer1977]

  On 4/12/2020 at 1:35 AM, aviatoreb said:

I thought under the influence was anything greater than 0.00.  And yes separately no drinking In any case more recent than 8 hrs.

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Read 14 CFR 91.17.  it says not under the influence, but then says not over .04 BAC. To me that says they believe under .04 is not under the influence

[aviatoreb]

  On 4/12/2020 at 1:38 AM, ragedracer1977 said:

Read 14 CFR 91.17.  it says not under the influence, but then says not over .04 BAC. To me that says they believe under .04 is not under the influence

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Could be / there is an actual legal answer on this based on aeronautical jurisprudence since we can be sure someone somewhere tested the guidance in court.

but I always figured that phrase under the influence could be prosecuted if you have anything greater than .00

[ragedracer1977]

  On 4/12/2020 at 1:43 AM, aviatoreb said:

Could be / there is an actual legal answer on this based on aeronautical jurisprudence since we can be sure someone somewhere tested the guidance in court.

but I always figured that phrase under the influence could be prosecuted if you have anything greater than .00

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I have no idea. But that's why I always refuse a glass of wine or a beer if I'm going flying that day

[aviatoreb]

  On 4/12/2020 at 1:49 AM, ragedracer1977 said:

I have no idea. But that's why I always refuse a glass of wine or a beer if I'm going flying that day

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Yah me too.

[GADan]

I knew the CFI fairly well.  It does not surprise me that he stacked the risks given the people on board and the evening in Vegas.  He has always pushed the limits when it comes to making posh friends. 

Personally, I wouldn't have flown with him in daylight in flat terrain, and am a bit surprised it took as long as it did for him to have an incident.  I have quite a few pilot friends and would happily fly with any of them, but I always wondered how the CFI even got his license.

Still very sad.  But probably very preventable for most GA pilots.

[carusoam]

Well that goes in the category of most disappointing first posts... 

• Speaking ill of the dead... doesn’t usually gain friends...
• Stating the obvious doesn’t teach very much...

Aside from that...

Welcome aboard, Dan.

Hope things improve going forwards... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

  On 4/16/2020 at 5:31 PM, carusoam said:

Well that goes in the category of most disappointing first posts... 

• Speaking ill of the dead... doesn’t usually gain friends...
• Stating the obvious doesn’t teach very much...

Aside from that...

Welcome aboard, Dan.

Hope things improve going forwards... 

Best regards,

-a-

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I didn’t see his first post as a personal shot against the deceased. It read to me like he was merely confirming his personal experience with the deceased’s repeated pattern of behavior. Perhaps it doesn’t offer much in the way of a lesson regarding the cause of the crash. It does however showcase how risk affects the risk taker. Managing risk takes self-awareness and discipline. Otherwise the window of what is acceptable continues to encompass more and more risky behavior. We all engage in this. It’s a necessary part of operating an aircraft. Those who continually push the edge of what’s safe and or legal start to get quite comfortable at the edge of what is safe and or legal (not the same but certainly connected). After some time their comfort window extends beyond what is safe and or legal. The lesson here is that if you get to that point, you better be skillful enough to overcome your poor decision making because your history will be written by your peers.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Shadrach

[ragedracer1977]

  On 4/16/2020 at 6:26 PM, Shadrach said:

I didn’t see his first post as a personal shot against the deceased. It read to me like he was merely confirming his personal experience with the deceased’s repeated pattern of behavior. Perhaps it doesn’t offer much in the way of a lesson regarding the cause of the crash. It does however showcase how risk affects the risk taker. Managing risk takes self-awareness and discipline. Otherwise the window of what is acceptable continues to encompass more and more risky behavior. We all engage in this. It’s a necessary part of operating an aircraft. Those who continually push the edge of what’s safe and or legal start to get quite comfortable at the edge of what is safe and or legal (not the same but certainly connected). After some time their comfort window extends beyond what is safe and or legal. The lesson here is that if you get to that point, you better be skillful enough to overcome your poor decision making because your history will be written by your peers.

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I was talking to @EricJ today, and I said if I ever crash, it better be something like a meteor hit the wing or something and it better be on video.  I do everything I can to make sure I've done everything I can to keep accidents at bay.