I finally flew a Cirrus for the first time....

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Last night I got my BFR/IPC in a WAAS G1000 equipped, 2013 Cirrus SR20, because I'm in Denver and my Mooney is in California.

I've ridden right seat in a Cirrus before but I've never flown one, so the thrill of getting my checkouts done in an unfamiliar aircraft - at night - was also thrown into the mix.

This was a heavily used flying club aircraft, so the interior was pretty beat up for only being 5 years old. It reminded me of how incredibly fortunate I am to own my own planes.

I strapped in and definitely noticed the more upright seating position, which we're all aware of. It's definitely a comfortable airplane. My instructor and I were separated by almost a foot, but he's a skinny 21-year-old kid. I like the 5-point harness (as I do in my RV) because it keeps you from cracking your head on the ceiling when the ride gets rough.

We were cleared to taxi to KAPA 35R, which is - no joke - a 2-mile road trip from where the plane was hangared. Making this taxi in my Mooney or RV is a breeze, but in the Cirrus it was exhausting. I've flown many planes with free-castering nosewheels, but the ground handling of this Cirrus was atrocious. The feel of the rudder pedals was extremely heavy. I struggled to keep it going in a straight line, but I figured out that if you taxi faster you get a little bit of rudder authority and it gets easier. Now I know why Cirrus pilots taxi so fast.

The takeoff roll was much easier to manage and the plane accelerated briskly. I liked the combined throttle/prop control. The side stick was immediately comfortable to me - I wish my Acclaim had them. Once in the air, though, I realized that I didn't like the control feel at all. Maneuvering the airplane with the side stick took a lot more force than I would have expected, mostly in roll, and although I made several trim adjustments, it just never felt like it was quite in trim (even when it was). I think side sticks and push rods would be a much better combo.

Once we leveled off in cruise, I engaged the autopilot, and the plane became docile and basically a slower version of my Mooney.

We headed to Front Range to fly our first two approaches. We started with the ILS RWY 35, which we flew on autopilot (part of the point of an IPC with the G1000 is making sure your buttonology for flying coupled approaches is correct). That approach went perfectly, and then we went missed and got vectored back around for the RNAV/GPS RWY 35. We requested the course reversal on this approach, which is a holding pattern, and flew that portion on autopilot. Then we disengaged the autopilot and I flew the remainder of the LPV approach by hand. It was easy to track the glideslope and the approach went perfectly, but my forearm was getting tired from manipulating the sidestick!

Once again we went missed and got vectors back for the ILS RW 35R at Centennial. I flew the entire remainder of the flight by hand. We decided to approach to circle-and-land minimums, then did a sidestep to 35L. I flew a very stabilized approach and much to my surprise I totally stuck the landing.

Overall I thought the Cirrus was just OK. I did not at all expect the poor ground handling characteristics and heaviness of the controls, but I was able to fly IFR approaches at night smoothly and confidently in spite of this. The single throttle control is nice, but at the end of the day it doesn't reduce your workload that much. I have to think that a newer, owner-flown model handles much more smoothly and easily, but I doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to fly one. In any case, just thought I'd share my experience with everyone, and I hope to hear from others who've flown them.

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, Joe Zuffoletto said:

Last night I got my BFR/IPC in a WAAS G1000 equipped, 2013 Cirrus SR20, because I'm in Denver and my Mooney is in California.

I've ridden right seat in a Cirrus before but I've never flown one, so the thrill of getting my checkouts done in an unfamiliar aircraft - at night - was also thrown into the mix.

This was a heavily used flying club aircraft, so the interior was pretty beat up for only being 5 years old. It reminded me of how incredibly fortunate I am to own my own planes.

I strapped in and definitely noticed the more upright seating position, which we're all aware of. It's definitely a comfortable airplane. My instructor and I were separated by almost a foot, but he's a skinny 21-year-old kid. I like the 5-point harness (as I do in my RV) because it keeps you from cracking your head on the ceiling when the ride gets rough.

We were cleared to taxi to KAPA 35R, which is - no joke - a 2-mile road trip from where the plane was hangared. Making this taxi in my Mooney or RV is a breeze, but in the Cirrus it was exhausting. I've flown many planes with free-castering nosewheels, but the ground handling of this Cirrus was atrocious. The feel of the rudder pedals was extremely heavy. I struggled to keep it going in a straight line, but I figured out that if you taxi faster you get a little bit of rudder authority and it gets easier. Now I know why Cirrus pilots taxi so fast.

The takeoff roll was much easier to manage and the plane accelerated briskly. I liked the combined throttle/prop control. The side stick was immediately comfortable to me - I wish my Acclaim had them. Once in the air, though, I realized that I didn't like the control feel at all. Maneuvering the airplane with the side stick took a lot more force than I would have expected, mostly in roll, and although I made several trim adjustments, it just never felt like it was quite in trim (even when it was). I think side sticks and push rods would be a much better combo.

Once we leveled off in cruise, I engaged the autopilot, and the plane became docile and basically a slower version of my Mooney.

We headed to Front Range to fly our first two approaches. We started with the ILS RWY 35, which we flew on autopilot (part of the point of an IPC with the G1000 is making sure your buttonology for flying coupled approaches is correct). That approach went perfectly, and then we went missed and got vectored back around for the RNAV/GPS RWY 35. We requested the course reversal on this approach, which is a holding pattern, and flew that portion on autopilot. Then we disengaged the autopilot and I flew the remainder of the LPV approach by hand. It was easy to track the glideslope and the approach went perfectly, but my forearm was getting tired from manipulating the sidestick!

Once again we went missed and got vectors back for the ILS RW 35R at Centennial. I flew the entire remainder of the flight by hand. We decided to approach to circle-and-land minimums, then did a sidestep to 35L. I flew a very stabilized approach and much to my surprise I totally stuck the landing.

Overall I thought the Cirrus was just OK. I did not at all expect the poor ground handling characteristics and heaviness of the controls, but I was able to fly IFR approaches at night smoothly and confidently in spite of this. The single throttle control is nice, but at the end of the day it doesn't reduce your workload that much. I have to think that a newer, owner-flown model handles much more smoothly and easily, but I doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to fly one. In any case, just thought I'd share my experience with everyone, and I hope to hear from others who've flown them.

I've flown right seat in Cirrus'.  Never left seat.  Honestly they are fine airplanes.  Most any airplane is ok in my book, cuz yer flyin' man!  But I chose a Mooney.  Nonetheless if I could not have my own airplane, and a Cirrus were available, I would fly that.

[gsengle]

Honestly the control system on the Cirrus is a major flaw. It uses the springs rather than aerodynamic trim tabs which means the springs are always pulling this way and that and to deadens slow speed control feel. Some have hypothesized that this is a contributing factor to Cirrus pattern stalls spin accidents I suspect that’s what you were feeling controls.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vance Harral]

Concur with your opinion on the side stick.  At first it seems nice, and I'm sure there are good side-stick implementations in other aircraft.  But the way the control rods are connected makes it feel "springy" in a way that's fatiguing, and also makes it seem like the aircraft is just never quite trimmed for wings level.  It's not a pleasant airplane to hand-fly, IMO.  The conventional wisdom (snark) seems to be that you don't buy an airplane like that to hand fly it, you buy it to go places, and you let the autopilot do most of the work.  I don't actually have a problem with that philosophy, I just don't understand why the control system is designed the way it is.  Perhaps there are good reasons for it: tradeoff with the autopilot implementation or whatever.  It would be interesting to compare it with the Lancair/Columbia/TTX side-stick implementation, but I've never flown one of those.

The cabin and seatbelts are certainly comfortable - on par with automobiles, and stellar compared to most GA aircraft I've flown.  Definitely a nice airplane with lots of nice features, and no surprise Cirrus sells a ton of 'em.

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

It would be interesting to compare it with the Lancair/Columbia/TTX side-stick implementation, but I've never flown one of those.

The Columbia 400 is far superior to the Cirrus SR-22 with respect to the side stick. The Columbia is much more "Mooney-like".

[aviatoreb]

That is a major great aspect of the Mooney over most planes is that we have control rods instead of cables which makes for much better responsive "road feel" over cables.  But the spring loaded controls in the cirrus are big time mush.  I agree with the assessment that they may be a contributing factor.

[MB65E]

Col4 is an awesome airplane. Flown both, no comparison! 

Great pilot report Joe! 

-Matt

[aviatoreb]

I flew a Cirrus, and I liked it.

 

[ilovecornfields]

Cirrus definitely gets credit for finding a foolproof way to prevent gear up landings. I guess Cirrus pilots don’t have to have long discussions about those how have and those who will...at least not when it comes to forgetting to put the gear down. 

 

[Hank]

27 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

Cirrus definitely gets credit for finding a foolproof way to prevent gear up landings. I guess Cirrus pilots don’t have to have long discussions about those how have and those who will...at least not when it comes to forgetting to put the gear down. 

 

You're right, they discuss those who have and those who will pull the red handle . . . . .  

[INA201]

I have a unique story and perspective regarding Cirrus.  My buddy, Todd Simmons, is the President of Customer Experience at Cirrus, so basically co2nd in command at Cirrus.  He is a really great guy who grew up around the corner from me.  We both went to school together from elementary school all the way through high school. We built model airplanes as kids, learned to fly at the same airport and from the same instructor(I was twenty years later).  Todd flies a Super Cub for fun and of course has access to the planes and the jets.  Some local friends and I had the fortune of flying with Todd over the holidays in one of their newest SR22 models.  I have to say that it is truly a great aircraft and seems specifically and ideally designed for comfort and travel.  Cirrus would not be so successful were it not for having an all around good design.  I will agree that it feels more like an autopilot type of flying and less of a hand flying aircraft.  It's more of an airline, destination type of flying, where you manage the systems.  If I had $800,000 to spend on a new aircraft it would be a tough decision and I would have to carefully consider my mission.  I still consider the 1978J the best all around plane for me and my budget.  If the choice were a Super Cub/Cirrus SR22 combo and I could afford it, who knows. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

A large part of Cirrus success is in their systems approach.  They don’t just build an airplane.  Cirrus provides strong sales and marketing, design refinement and production, then comprehensive customer training programs and ongoing support.   They also offer an upgrade path to a Cirrus Jet. 

Cirrus tried hard to sell me planes over the years.  They had a traveling road show of two semi-trailers and five airplanes that visited airports all across the USA.

I went to one show at their invitation.  They took me through the detailed display, had me fly their simulator, then one of the aircraft.  When I landed they had a sales contract ready including an offer to buy the plane I had arrived in.  I could have signed and flown one home that day, the loaner to be replaced by my new Cirrus within weeks.  

By comparison although I’ve owned 3 Mooney aircraft and clearly am a potential customer no one at Mooney ever contacted me trying to sell me a new plane:  Not so much as a postcard in 20+ years. 

[MIm20c]

Back in ‘03 and ‘04 I flew in and compared the new g1000 182, Mooney Ovation, SR22, and the Lancair 350. Flew the SR22 at OSH, and was in the back seat of the Lancair at Lake Tahoe. The Mooney rep flew the ovation and spent half a day with us at our home airport. All sales reps were very professional but without a doubt the Cirrus guys had a well oiled machine even back then. 

[jasona900]

36 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

A large part of Cirrus success is in their systems approach.  They don’t just build an airplane.  Cirrus provides strong sales and marketing, design refinement and production, then comprehensive customer training programs and ongoing support.   They also offer an upgrade path to a Cirrus Jet. 

Cirrus tried hard to sell me planes over the years.  They had a traveling road show of two semi-trailers and five airplanes that visited airports all across the USA.

I went to one show at their invitation.  They took me through the detailed display, had me fly their simulator, then one of the aircraft.  When I landed they had a sales contract ready including an offer to buy the plane I had arrived in.  I could have signed and flown one home that day, the loaner to be replaced by my new Cirrus within weeks.  

By comparison although I’ve owned 3 Mooney aircraft and clearly am a potential customer no one at Mooney ever contacted me trying to sell me a new plane:  Not so much as a postcard in 20+ years. 

That is an interesting perspective.  When visiting the Mooney display at Oshkosh last year, I could best describe the Mooney reps there as "snooty".  Granted, I do not have the means to purchase one new, and it was very apparent that was the case. 

I think most of us are very picky (I definitely am) when it comes to the aviation products we purchase.  We demonstrate a strong sense of brand loyalty as a result of quality, customer service, and price.  I am willing to pay a little extra for a product/service when I know that if I have an issue, someone will be on the other end of the phone to lend a hand.  If they don't answer...well, I'll likely move on to the next company that will.

 

[MIm20c]

16 minutes ago, jasona900 said:

That is an interesting perspective.  When visiting the Mooney display at Oshkosh last year, I could best describe the Mooney reps there as "snooty".  Granted, I do not have the means to purchase one new, and it was very apparent that was the case  

 

The secret for the royal treatment at Cirrus is being 45-60 and have your wife (or husband) dressed in designer whatever at your side. Otherwise you’ll be lucky to get a bottle of water. 

[jasona900]

2 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

The secret for the royal treatment at Cirrus is being 45-60 and have your wife (or husband) dressed in designer whatever at your side. Otherwise you’ll be lucky to get a bottle of water. 

Yeah.. designer whatever is certainly not my style.  Especially not at an airshow!

[steingar]

I flew in one of the first certificated Lanceairs, which were quite similar to Cirrus in most respects.  I flew the thing with a small trim button on the stick, that stick didn't have enough throw for me to exert the forces needed to fly that aircraft.

[DonMuncy]

3 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

 

By comparison although I’ve owned 3 Mooney aircraft and clearly am a potential customer no one at Mooney ever contacted me trying to sell me a new plane:  Not so much as a postcard in 20+ years. 

Contrarian view: 

1. It wouldn't make any difference to me. No way could I ever buy a new Mooney.

2. I really do not want to listen to any more sales pitches.

3. I would rather they take the money they would spend on pitching to me, on reducing the cost or improving the plane. (I admit they must have advertising to sell planes. Just, that pitching to current Mooney owners is unlikely to be money well spent)

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, jasona900 said:

 When visiting the Mooney display at Oshkosh last year, I could best describe the Mooney reps there as "snooty". 

My wife and I noticed the same thing.  What's odd is that a few years ago, when they were just restarting, they were great.  Even gave us free shirts.

[DonMuncy]

Maybe you should have worn your tee-shirts saying "I can afford a $800,000 airplane".

 

[MIm20c]

I can’t believe the number of used Cirrus aircraft selling or at least advertised for 80-90 percent of new value with 1000 plus hours on them.  I’d want the new plane smell if spending over 1/2 mil on a SE piston plane.  They must have some good used car salesmen on the lot if they can move overpriced used aircraft like that. 

[aviatoreb]

27 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

I can’t believe the number of used Cirrus aircraft selling or at least advertised for 80-90 percent of new value with 1000 plus hours on them.  I’d want the new plane smell if spending over 1/2 mil on a SE piston plane.  They must have some good used car salesmen on the lot if they can move overpriced used aircraft like that. 

New car smell, $12.97

https://www.amazon.com/New-Car-Smell-Air-Freshener/dp/B074G22X9M/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1521051600&sr=8-4&keywords=new+car+smell+spray

[INA201]

From my experience the Cirrus represents excellent sales and service for a concierge price tag even after the sale. A brand new Mooney will leave you fending for yourself to a certain extent but quite possibly cost 30% less in ongoing costs. I have no data to back this up other than just being on the different forums and seeing insurance/chute repack etc. I could afford a used older 20 or 22 but for me the Mooney J just works all around.  If I made another 50k a year the extra service level and support might be worth the extra costs but then again we are talking Ovation level too by golly...

[gsxrpilot]

The wheels hanging out are a deal-breaker for me. I'll fly anything. But if I'm the owner, I want something I will be proud of and that will make me smile every time I fly. For me, all the cool airplanes are either retracts or tailwheels.  Fixed tricycles are for training.

 

[Guest]

The market is so small and Cirrus is so far ahead in sales there is little room left for anyone else in the high performance single engine market.  Cessna has cancelled the TTX program, who will be next?

Clarence