Pireps on firewall forward HP + STC

[carusoam]

2,000 hours X 150 Kts = 300,000 nms

Roughly An ordinary Mooney expectation.  Barring any engine life ending corrosion...

That is tough competition for bar setting.

How Many Miles or hours can you put on a race car in a year? Two hours per week would be roughly 100hours each year...

ordinary Mooneys get 100 hours per year. The equivalent of 15,000 nms.

It would be great to have a car lane for 175mph travel... a little too crowded on the east coast... lane construction precision would need to increase.  No potholes allowed.

PP thoughts only, not a supercar driver...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[EricJ]

16 minutes ago, carusoam said:

2,000 hours X 150 Kts = 300,000 nms

Roughly An ordinary Mooney expectation.  Barring any engine life ending corrosion...

That is tough competition for bar setting.

How Many Miles or hours can you put on a race car in a year? Two hours per week would be roughly 100hours each year...

ordinary Mooneys get 100 hours per year. The equivalent of 15,000 nms.

It would be great to have a car lane for 175mph travel... a little too crowded on the east coast... lane construction precision would need to increase.  No potholes allowed.

PP thoughts only, not a supercar driver...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Many amateur racers don't start with new engines.    The engine in my current track car has 120k miles on it and it has never been rebuilt.   Most of that was not track time, but most of the miles it sees now are.   It gets dyno'ed every couple of years and still makes full rated hp, totally stock.  Even the intake plumbing and filter are stock. 

Most aircraft engines spend very little time at 100% power, and have a mix of operational settings over their lifetime.   A lot of tach time is spent on the ground, a lot in descent, a lot in the pattern, a lot at cruise much less than 100%.   Cars run up and down the power curve all the time, more so than aircraft, rather than spending most of the time at a pretty steady state.   The tradeoffs and compromises in each are different, but both will last a long time if treated well.    I just don't think aircraft engines have any edge over automotive engines in the longevity department; that's not a real area of superiority for aircraft engines.

Aircraft engines need reliability, and the part count in modern automotive engines and the number of tricks done in automotive engines (e.g., VTEC, VVT, variable geometry intake manifolds) doesn't translate well to optimizing reliability.   I think we have what we have in aircraft because they fit the operational criteria, including reliability, better than other available options.   If the GA aircraft market was big enough to support the amount of R&D that goes into automotive engines, I think we'd be flying behind something much different than the ancient artifacts we currently use.   

[gsxrpilot]

I, along with just about everyone, has been hearing for years how our Lyc's and Conti's are old technology and if only they had a larger market and a lot less liability exposure, we'd all have much better/modern engines.

But after attending the APS class in Ada, OK, I have a bit of a different understanding. Our engines are pretty well suited for the task at hand, and it's not for lack of trying by many out there to improve these antique engines. The experimental market is huge and they can run any engine they like. Yet we see the vast majority of experimental's running the same engines we do.

For light weight, rated HP production for a 30 min or so climb to altitude followed by 75% for hours on end, all the while running a low RPM to keep the prop in the useful range, and air cooled... our engines are pretty good.

But there are plenty still trying such as Raptor planning to use a diesel Audi engine. We'll see. I'm all in favor of innovation, but I just don't think it's a given that if freed from regulations, we'd all have MUCH better engines. The EAA guys have been free for years.

[Sandman993]

Hoping we would get to read about some hands on experiences with the 10/1 stc. If we were lucky, maybe even hear about the cam stc at fwf... 

carusoam... those guys are based out of Loveland co. The stc is called horse power plus.

 

A true firewall forward overhaul from anywhere is going to kick the sh** out of 30k. New hoses, overhauled starter/alt ... prop gov, mags etc. pretty much soup to nuts. Ouch! Then, add 6 or 7k for the two performance stc’s. This is painful to the checking acct. But I want this stuff and I’m willing to bear the financial pain to wake up the 201 that is already a magical machine. 

I’ll weigh in as I get more information... one thing that gives me pause is... with a couple of bad experiences (maybe just the one that could have been from a bad break in) posted from years ago and parrots causing it to practically go viral, I wonder if it could hurt my resale value someday when or if I want to sell. To break in a new engine, I believe it’s a must to monitor cht’s via a jpi or some 4 point system. My intended purpose for coming out of the shadows to post in the first place.

if I do this, I’ll post the ongoing process and promise, if it doesn’t turn out to be the best thing since boneless chicken,  I will share the good, the bad and the ugly, but from a hands on experience.

 

[carusoam]

Proceed with caution...

See how your checking account will feel if it has to reverse the process...

Make sure the pistons and associated hardware can be swapped out without removing the engine.  Things get more expensive when the engine comes out.

If a full OH is needed to reverse things, see what the effect on the engine core’s value is.

I would expect that CHTs will be a challenge to maintain and a top OH would be expected at the halfway point.

 

Have you looked into turbos as well?

There are more statistics available from people that have added TNs to their Mooneys.  Many write about their experience around here.  They aren’t perfect either...

 

Has the experimental world got anything to offer regarding FWF pistons?

How do you feel about being a pioneer? Having work done without having much experience from anyone else to draw from...

 

Some people like working on machines as much as they enjoy flying them.

PP ideas only, sort of a sounding board, not giving any advice in any direction.

Best regards,

-a-

[Sandman993]

I had a long conversation with fwf today... there are several Mooney 201’s with these mods in service. After I mentioned some concerns I had after reading the posts here on the mods, he went on about how they balance the new pistons within 1/2 gram while lycoming says within  12 grams is considered in balance. Someone here said or repeated that his engine ran so rough that his instruments were trying to fall out. They said to expect it to be smoother than ever. And most experimental birds have high compression pistons.

ive seen many planes advertised for sale with various engine times and they add the engine was overhauled by fwf... like it is a badge of honor.

ill be taking the ship up to Loveland from the Victoria Texas area. He said it’s better that way and I’ll be blown away, especially when I look under the cowl.... hence the term fwf. They clean up and paint everything.

the fwf basic engine overhaul for the a3b6d is 30,900... that gets the alternator, starter, hoses, silicone baffles, mag overhaul, plugs and wires, prop governor, mechanical fuel pump and injection system plus fuel divider. That’s factory new cylinders, case checked and line bored... and of course, the crank checked and polished or whatever...engine at factory New tolerance. If the cam isn’t serviceable... that would have to be bought separately. I want a new cam anyway. The pistons and cam mods are about another 6k.

I ain’t skeered... the ship will be a bonanza hunting predator! Prepare to go fast!

[ArtVandelay]

I had a long conversation with fwf today... there are several Mooney 201’s with these mods in service. After I mentioned some concerns I had after reading the posts here on the mods, he went on about how they balance the new pistons within 1/2 gram while lycoming says within  12 grams is considered in balance. Someone here said or repeated that his engine ran so rough that his instruments were trying to fall out. They said to expect it to be smoother than ever. And most experimental birds have high compression pistons.
ive seen many planes advertised for sale with various engine times and they add the engine was overhauled by fwf... like it is a badge of honor.
ill be taking the ship up to Loveland from the Victoria Texas area. He said it’s better that way and I’ll be blown away, especially when I look under the cowl.... hence the term fwf. They clean up and paint everything.
the fwf basic engine overhaul for the a3b6d is 30,900... that gets the alternator, starter, hoses, silicone baffles, mag overhaul, plugs and wires, prop governor, mechanical fuel pump and injection system plus fuel divider. That’s factory new cylinders, case checked and line bored... and of course, the crank checked and polished or whatever...engine at factory New tolerance. If the cam isn’t serviceable... that would have to be bought separately. I want a new cam anyway. The pistons and cam mods are about another 6k.
I ain’t skeered... the ship will be a bonanza hunting predator! Prepare to go fast!

You don’t mention exhaust, I would ask them what they think of changing to power flow exhaust.

[carusoam]

Finally found the STC advert....   http://thenewfirewallforward.com/tnfwf_2012-2013_new_006.htm

It would be great to have before and after data.  Got a good engine monitor, with FF?

Additional power usually shows up in shorter ground rolls and better climb rates. Good to Start collecting data now...

It would be great if you could share a success story.

Best regards,

-a-

[Igor_U]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:05 PM, teejayevans said:

The question is how long can you run an automotive engine at 75% power, I don’t run my airplane engine at 100% for very long.

It turns quite long, if you look at SAAB.

In mid 80-s they took stock SAAB 9000 Turbo's to Talladega and run them for 100,000 km at full speed for 20 days and nights setting an average of more them 130mph

In mid 90- they came back the test with newer SAAB 900s setting up new records.

 

So yeah, even older 2.0l high pressure turbo car engines can run close to 100% for periods of time.  I used to have on of those...

 

[Sandman993]

They brought up power flow, I didn’t have to. I simply asked questions that concerned me with regards to over clocking the already 50hp per cylinder a3b6d. They like power flow, but that’s another 5 g’s+ and I’m already blowing right past the hull value. Spent 31k last February on gpss, gtn 750, flight stream 510, new remote audio panel and gtx 345 Adsb transponder. I simply want to have the ability to get off an 8,000ft da runway without scaring the daylights out of myself or my passenger. If you take one skinny chick on holiday, you know they gonna bring 300lbs of crap while you only brought flip flops and left your underwear behind to save weight! 

Im pretty much on par with one mooney I fly with from time to time... the other (same yr model as mine) smokes me in takeoff and climb. Maybe we can get some informal measurements to share this week, but I’m planning the trip Monday or Tuesday... drop off the ship and go from there... they said it’s possible to get the plane back in as little as 4 to 6 weeks. Will post the experiences.

[jetdriven]

I have no firsthand knowledge of anybody using STC but I have read of  guys running them 800-1000hr and  the  and the top end is completely worn out. They put helicopter pistons in them and increase compression. This is already a high compression engine and doesn’t have huge detonation and cooling margins. Overclocking is a good term for describing this. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by jetdriven

[KSMooniac]

Make sure everything gets balanced precisely. Don't pay everything up front (pay nothing if possible) and be prepared to keep hounding them to get it done. See if they'll flow-match your cylinders and lifters. There are lots of things to do to improve balance and maximize fatigue life.

Get a dynamic balance after break-in as well, and maybe your case will last longer.

I got their cam mod 3 years ago and it took a lot longer than it should, and I had to bother them a few times. All they had to do was open the box, drill it, and send it back. I wouldn't have them did my whole engine unless they were local.

Good luck.

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[aaronk25]

So back on the auto engine debate. Given these aircraft engines are old designs it’s still impressive that the hp is as close as I can tell exactly the same at 2700rpm as the direct injection 5.3 truck motor sitting in front of me. 200hp at 2700 rpms.


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[KSMooniac]

Not to mention at a much lower weight compared to that auto engine + radiator and coolant.

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[N201MKTurbo]

Instead of calling these old designs. Why don't we call them very mature designs. They have been in a state of continuous improvement for over 70 years.

[Sandman993]

Fwf did mention stress on the case and to answer that, they said balance is important and imbalance is the culprit to cracking cases. The tbo remains at 2,000hrs.

the compression increases are going to pressure up the combustion chambers from 8.7 to 10... I get that, but with a 4 point monitor, I should be able to manage new, if any, heat issues. Right now, personal maximum cht’s are 350 give or take... at 370, I’m taking steps to trend it down. That’s what makes cylinders last to tbo regardless of whatever redline says in the poh. Egt’s are far less important imo, but important for leaning. 

Again, I’ll post what the total experience is like here and either affirmation of what the nay sayers have posted or kudos where deserving. I’m hoping she goes like stink!

This is my ship, there are many like it, but this one is mine...

[OR75]

the IO-390 is also an option to increase hp if you have the right prop

simple STC as well and the IO-360 is accepted as a core

 

 

[Sandman993]

4 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

You probably should have bought a 231.  But shoulda, coulda, woulda. 

PowerFlow will definitely give you more power. I’m sure the FWF mod will, too, but many feel that the IO-360 case and cylinders are already pretty highly stressed, as is evidenced the case and cylinder cracking we see here sometimes. The FWF mod would logically exacerbate that, but it might be years before you ever notice it, if ever. 

Regardless of the merits of this particular mod, FWF as a company has had some negative reports from customers over the years. Just be aware of that going in. 

By all means keep us informed. This mod has a lot of potential for sure. 

I’m pretty happy with the 201... it has bladder busting endurance and incredible useful load... typical rop Cruise is 10.2 gph... if a 231 is at 12gph like some boast, it’s probably running too hot. My friend just installed a jpi in his 182 that he’s had forever and had to change his mixture settings when he saw the temps. He now runs at 14ish gph with it squirreled back in cruise...

 

 

[Sandman993]

42 minutes ago, OR75 said:

the IO-390 is also an option to increase hp if you have the right prop

simple STC as well and the IO-360 is accepted as a core

 

 

That’s an awesome notion, but I think it’s too rich for my checkbook. I’m already spending too much. Borderline obscene! Not certain, but almost positive I wouldn’t like cat food.

[ArtVandelay]

5 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I have no firsthand knowledge of anybody using STC but I have read of  guys running them 800-1000hr and  the  and the top end is completely worn out. They put helicopter pistons in them and increase compression. This is already a high compression engine and doesn’t have huge detonation and cooling margins. Overclocking is a good term for describing this. 

FWIW, the Corvette Z06 has 10:1 compression using mogas of course, and has sodium filled exhaust valves. Of course it has advantages of direct fuel injection and  electronic ignition.

[carusoam]

@Sandman993

I saw this as it bubbled up today...

Somebody has the pistons and the STC not installed in an 201...

Are you still heading this direction?

320KPH,

Do you know if the owner would sell the firewall forward parts/STC separately?

Sandman above was interested in the possibilities...

Just a PP, trying to connect Mooney people across the globe, not a mechanic or a sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[Sandman993]

Dropped off the airplane... FWF has the bird now. 

That was a fun trip with 38kt headwinds most of the way. When the winds finally allowed me to pick up some gs... then it got bumpy so I had to reduce airspeed anyway. Gotta love the j, it went up there on about 60gal. About 830nm. 

[AaronDC8402]

I'm curious to hear how long your overhaul takes. Our J had the FWF 10:1 STC and centrilube cam when we bought it. We bought the plane with 1450 hours since overhaul. The plane flew great for us for about 200 hours. At our most recent annual, the A&P said there was too much metal in the oil filter. There were no other signs of problem. The plane made great power even on it's last flight with that engine.

We considered sending the engine back to FWF for overhaul. They were on a 12 week lead time, and we didn't want to wait that long. We shopped around and ended up with an overhaul from Triad. Triad would build to the FWF specs since we already owned the STC. Ultimately, we decided to rebuild without any of the FWF STC's. The pistons were more expensive, and with the reputation of FWF, we felt our best investment was to keep it all stock. There were two lifter faces that were damaged. The centrilube cam is designed specifically to avoid the failure we had, so we weren't sold on that.

The overhauled (to stock specs) engine has run about 150 hours now, and is well broken in. Looking back at some videos from before the overhaul, we're not seeing any performance difference between the FWF engine and the recently overhauled engine. This is comparing a 150 hour engine to one with 1500 hours on it. If you're the type to think that should make a difference.

[ArtVandelay]

Does the centrilube cam include a preoil pump? To be effective it probably should?

[Sandman993]

Oh wow... appreciate your input.

Think I’ve read something from you before or someone’s similar experience. It’s important to know a thing or two about when the engine was overhauled and especially intervals between uses. Would be good if everyone spent some time reading material on what happens at those dry starts and the evils of what happens if there’s corrosion present. And of course, we absolutely have no business operating our engines without a 4 point engine anylizer to monitor temps.

Spoke to them about pre-oilers and they weren’t against the notion although they said it’s important to know, when you power up the pre-oiler, you’ll need to pull the prop through so the holes line up as oiling points rotate by. Make sense?

of course I’m apprehensive about this whole process...  know several helicopter drivers with 22’s... those come stock with higher compression pistons and they seem to live to TBO and run great. These higher compression pistons are common in experimental aircraft like rv’s. Our engines are pretty small and already produce 50hp per cylinder...therefore I believe it’s critical to control cylinder temps... use them often (not good to sit).

looked very busy at fwf... they aren’t lacking for engines to overhaul. I was given a tour of the  engine rooms and a glimpse of the rebuilding procedure. Told me it was 4 to 6 weeks turnaround. 

Im pretty picky about engine oil change intervals... typically, change at 30 hrs. It something we as owner can do ourselves. 

I sure miss my ship.