Thoughts on this M20C?

[Tx_Aggie]

Some additional info:

Number: 676N
Last Action Date	2014-08-21
Airworthiness Date	1968-02-05		Expiration Date	2018-01-31
Manufacturer_Name	MOONEY		Model Name	M20C
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	5443 HULSEY CIR
Registrant City	GAINESVILLE		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	305045105		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	Second Notice for Registration Renewal
Serial Number	680032		Aircraft Type	Fixed wing single engine
Mode S Code	52171456		Year Mfr	1968
Aircraft Category	Land		Builder Certification	Type Certificated
Number Engines	1		Number Seats	4
Aircraft Weight	CLASS 1		Aircraft Cruising Speed	127
Airworthiness Classification	Standard		Approved Operation Codes	Normal
Engine Manufacturer	LYCOMING
Engine Model Name	O&VO-360 SER		Engine Type	Reciprocating
Engine Horsepower/Thrust	0		Fuel Consumed	0.00
------- History 1 -------
Last Action Date	2012-01-23
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	5443 HULSEY CIR
Registrant City	GAINESVILLE		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	305045105		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	First Notice for Registration Renewal
------- History 2 -------
Last Action Date	2007-10-25
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	5443 HULSEY CIR
Registrant City	GAINESVILLE		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	30504-5105		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	First Notice for Re- Registration/Renewal
------- History 3 -------
Last Action Date	2007-07-17
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	380 JUNCTION TRACK
Registrant City	ROSWELL		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	30075		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	The Triennial Aircraft Registration form was mailed and has not been returned by the Post Office
------- History 4 -------
Last Action Date	2004-07-20
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	380 JUNCTION TRACK
Registrant City	ROSWELL		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	30075		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	The Triennial Aircraft Registration form was mailed and has not been returned by the Post Office
------- History 5 -------
Last Action Date	2001-07-17
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	380 JUNCTION TRACK
Registrant City	ROSWELL		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	30075		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	The Triennial Aircraft Registration form was mailed and has not been returned by the Post Office
------- History 6 -------
Last Action Date	1998-07-15
Registrant Name	QUARLES JAMES T		Street	380 JUNCTION TRACK
Registrant City	ROSWELL		Registrant State	GA
Registrant Zip Code	30075		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1992-08-20
Status	The Triennial Aircraft Registration form was mailed and has not been returned by the Post Office
***** No Deregistered Data Found *****
***** No Reserved Data Found *****
------- FAA Accident/Incident 1 -------
Occurrence Date	2002-11-28		Aircraft Make	MOONEY
Aircraft Model	M20C		Damage
Document Last Modified	2012-08-08
Narrative	(-23) AIRCRAFT WAS STOPPING AT FLEMING-MASON AIRPORT LOCATED AT FLEMINGSBURG, KY AS A FUELING STOP. ATC CLEARED THE AIRCRAFT FOR AN APPROACH. THE PILOT STATED THAT AFTER LANDING THE LANDING GEAR COLLAPSED. HE ALSO STATED THAT THE LANDING GEAR INDICATOR SHOWED THAT THE LANDING GEAR WAS DOWN. THE AIRCRAFT CAME TO REST APPROXIMATELY 250 FEET AFTER THE 1000' MARKER. MAINTENANCE PERSONNEL JACKED THE AIRCRAFT AND OPERATED THE LANDING GEAR SEVERAL TIMES AND FOUND IT TO BE FUNCTIONING NORMALLY. IN ADDITION THE PILOT STATED HE MADE TWO PRIOR LANDINGS AND THE GEAR PERFORMED NORMALLY. NEITHER THE PILOT OR MAINTENANCE PERSONNEL COULD EXPLAIN WHY THE LANDING GEAR COLLAPSED ON LANDING. THERE WAS NO STRUCTURAL DAMAGE TO THE AIRCRAFT. THE PROPELLER AND ENGINE WILL HAVE TO BE REPLACED DUE TO THE PROPELLER STRIKING THE RUNWAY SEVERAL TIMES AND THE SUDDEN STOPPAGE OF THE ENGINE.
***** No NTBS Accidents Found *****
***** No NTBS Pre 1982 Accidents Found *****
------- SDR 1 -------
Date Of Report	1977-05-16		Operator Control Number	Z197713600042
Date Of Occurrence			Aircraft Registration	676N
Aircraft Manufacturer	MOONEY		Aircraft Group Code	M20
Aircraft Manufacturer Model	M20G		Aircraft Make Model Sequence	5870216
Air Carrier Name	Unknown		Air Carrier Operation Code
Operation Type			Stage Of Operation	INSP/MAINT
Severity Factor	OVER 24 MO		Air Transport Association Code	Landing Gear Brake System
Precautionary Procedures	NONE		Nature Of Condition	OTHER
Segment	AIRFRAME		Descriptive Name Of Part	LINE
Defective Location On Aircraft	LT & RT WHEEL		Failed Part Condition	CRACKING
Part Total Time	1,168		Part Total Time Since Overhaul	1,168
Component Manufacturer			Component Manufacturer Model
Component Manufacturer Number			Manufacturer Part Number
Ata Code
Remarks	LT & RT FLEX BRAKE LINES FROM WHEEL CYL TO WHEEL WELL DRIED & CRACKING

Is this from myairplane.com?


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[steingar]

I’m just wondering where folks who compare paint to lipstick get aircraft painted?

When I’m evaluating an aircraft I tend to think in terms of major expenses. One is the engine, am I going to have to major it soon?  Is there corrosion? The big expenses in most aircraft are paint and engines, in Mooney’s tanks are another consideration. Autopilots are another, they can be quite pricey to install.

I feel one has to look over all these things to make a decision.  The aircraft in the add comes awefully close, the engine is the only weakness. That said, were the engine lower time I’d pay this fellow’s price very quickly indeed. With it so high time I’d want some consideration, but not that much. That is an uncommonly nice Ranger.

Last I checked we’re headed into 2018, not 2020. I don’t feel it is yet the time to demand ADSB.  It will be soon though, and I think lots of folks are going to have a tough time selling aircraft.

[Bart Chilcott]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

I’m just wondering where folks who compare paint to lipstick get aircraft painted?

When I’m evaluating an aircraft I tend to think in terms of major expenses. One is the engine, am I going to have to major it soon?  Is there corrosion? The big expenses in most aircraft are paint and engines, in Mooney’s tanks are another consideration. Autopilots are an

Actually paint is the least expensive (barring any corrosion). .  A world class paint job runs around 16K + .  An overhaul, 25K,  a new engine for my E  (IO360 - $50K,) Avionics can easily exceed $80K with autopilot and a little glass.  Ideally an aircraft that has ALL the things done to it by the previous owner represents the best value.  But since avionics depreciate faster than anything else in this world,  I think it’s wise to put a priority on that over polish and take advantage of someone else’s depreciation loss, followed closely by a low time, proven engine.  But hey, thankfully we dont all buy on the same premises.  What one person values in an aircraft may be of no value to another buyer.  Such as IFR capabilities may have zero value to a VFR Pilot and so on.  

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

I’m just wondering where folks who compare paint to lipstick get aircraft painted?

When I’m evaluating an aircraft I tend to think in terms of major expenses. One is the engine, am I going to have to major it soon?  Is there corrosion? The big expenses in most aircraft are paint and engines, in Mooney’s tanks are another consideration. Autopilots are another, they can be quite pricey to install.

I feel one has to look over all these things to make a decision.  The aircraft in the add comes awefully close, the engine is the only weakness. That said, were the engine lower time I’d pay this fellow’s price very quickly indeed. With it so high time I’d want some consideration, but not that much. That is an uncommonly nice Ranger.

Last I checked we’re headed into 2018, not 2020. I don’t feel it is yet the time to demand ADSB.  It will be soon though, and I think lots of folks are going to have a tough time selling aircraft.

I can fly an airplane for many years without a new paint job, but not very long without a good engine. To me, and from my view in the front left seat, Avionics add much more to the pleasure of flying than paint on the outside. So while paint is expensive just like an engine, it's a completely optional expense, unlike the engine. In fact, I'd rather not pay or even contribute to a paint job that I wouldn't have chosen myself. 

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I agree completely. I think the lipstick analogy just comes from the fact that you can paint an old neglected dog of a ramp queen and make it look pretty darn good on the surface.  

I’d be looking for a plane with an old paint job that still looks like new personally, because that means it has been both hangared and well cared for. Also then the seller won’t be trying to recoup his paint expenses in the transaction.

I'll agree with your second statement but not the first. For me the issue of new paint is that like lipstick, it's completely subjective and frivolous. There was an M20E mentioned somewhere for sale at $160K. I happen to think it's very dark paint job is hideous. Others think its awesome. There was a Mooney for sale on here a couple of years ago painted like the Texas flag. I'm from Texas but can't think of many worse ways to paint my Mooney. 

I do agree completely with the value of finding a Mooney with original paint that still looks good. That would be indicative of good care and therefore of value.

One day I'll get my 252 painted. It will be blue as I don't like red. It's just personal preference. But it will also be the very last thing done after all other upgrades are finished. Think of buying a Mooney with a new paint job, that you just paid a premium for in the purchase price... But now you get a great deal on a 201 sloped windshield, or LASAR has a sale on speed mods and you want to get all of them. Or your tanks start leaking and need resealing. All of those jobs and many others will ruin an otherwise flawless paint job. 

I specifically passed on two different 252's because they had recent paint jobs and the seller was asking a premium on its account. I got a better plane at a much lower price and was able to put the difference into a much nicer panel that has significantly raised the enjoyment quotient of the flying. Someday I'll have new paint and it will be my own color and scheme... or Byron's if I can convince him to sign it over 

[steingar]

Paint may or may not be optional, but is expensive and difficult to do yourself. Hence I tend to think of it as a major system that needs consideration.

[David_H]

3 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I agree with your “time on the market” observation. That could indicate many things and most of them aren’t good.  If the plane has been sitting for sale and not flown for a very long time that is definitely a mark against it. 

Ok. A hypothetical question having nothing at all to do with this plane but rather about your valuation methodology.  Let’s say you find THE absolute perfect plane for you. I mean it is exactly what you are looking for. Engine time, panel, paint, interior, maintenance and operational pedigree. Absolutely perfect and what you are looking for. Both Bluebook and the apparent market have it at 50K but the seller is firm at 60K.  Of course the CB MooneySpace consensus is just 45K.

Recognizing that these planes are 50 years old now and all unique, that substantially upgrading any one of the areas that I listed above would easily cost you more than the 10K price delta from Bluebook, and that you’ll be spending 15K a year anyway regardless just to own and operate whatever you buy, what do you do?  Keep looking and waiting for a better deal or pony up? 

Oh, and we are definitely good. Please do keep posting. 

Jim

The perfect plane will never be available since everyones idea of perfect is different and I'm completely ok with that.

That said, I don't think asking for a discount because it isn't everything I want is good practice. For example, I wouldn't detract from a planes value due to it's color as long as it's in the realm of "normal". Likewise, I'm not going to increase the value based on a color either. Therefore, it takes much of the aesthetics out of the decision and bases a decision on utility, condition, and functionality. That said, if an owner decides to pay a lot of money to paint a plane with a "non-standard" scheme... expect the potential market to shrink when it comes time to sell. 

I don't think anyone on here is quibbling about $5K at this point. Business decisions are usually based on percentages. If it isn't treated as such, then it becomes an emotional decision. Would I overpay 5% to have the perfect plane... probably so. Would I overpay 35% to have everything the present owner thinks is the perfect plane... no. 

 

[David_H]

3 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I agree completely. I think the lipstick analogy just comes from the fact that you can paint an old neglected dog of a ramp queen and make it look pretty darn good on the surface.  

I’d be looking for a plane with an old paint job that still looks like new personally, because that means it has been both hangared and well cared for. Also then the seller won’t be trying to recoup his paint expenses in the transaction.

Jim

I completely agree with this statement and it describes my thoughts well.

A plane can either be hangared or it can be kept on tie down. One is far superior to the other in terms of preserving the present quality of the plane. That said, what are the first points of failure when a plane is kept on tie-down? Its the paint and interior. If an owner chooses to keep the plane on tie-down... they have made the decision to defer the maintenance costs of the paint and interior. Is it a bad decision? That's debatable, not my choice anyway, so it doesn't even matter what I think. However, I'm not going to pay for the shiny new paint that the present owner thinks is perfect because it saved them on hangar rent. 

[David_H]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

 

This is why, though, I so routinely object to Crowdsourced pricing evaluations.  We are all different and value things differently.

Jim 

Not really... I'm not speaking to anyone in particular, but only a few have given actual valuation numbers backed with reasons. 

Other posters have just bantered about why they thought the ones that actually posted numbers were wrong. There is value in that data as well... just not nearly as much.

Those that say just "write the check" since acquisition are the small cost... I hope you're around when it comes time for me to sell 

[whiskytango]

Let's hope that the Buyer, whomever they may be, has the engine cylinders borescopes and the cam lobes checked as part of the PPI.  A plane sitting in Georgia for a year without having been flown is a candidate for engine corrosion.

[MIm20c]

40 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Indeed!  I hope you are too as I approach sales from a similar perspective. It makes no since whatsoever to me to allow a plane to sit on the market unused for a year or even six months trying to squeeze the last dollar out of it. Set a reasonable price on a quality plane and it will sell pretty quickly. Something is wrong when one has been lingering on the market. 

A lot of Mooney aircraft (all of the vintage?) have had periods of inactivity over the years. Could be because of a medical issue, maintenance, upgrades, or home base airport issues.  If fact some well known brokers/resellers often have planes sitting for months at a time.  To find a plane with all the upgrades that has been flown a lot over its lifetime (but not too much) with perfect maintenance for a price within a few percent of the “bad deals” out there?  Sounds good, sign me up for a bravo or ovation!

[carusoam]

The best part of discussing this plane openly, endlessly...

It isn't a hidden barn find...

It isn't a steal...

 

Now, I’d be afraid a competing buyer swooping in and grabbing it up...  before I could arrange  PPI.

Somebody Needing to artfully spend money before the tax year end.

 

It becomes more difficult to negotiate on a plane when discussing it openly in a public environment.

Kind of like playing cards with an open hand.

 

With the economy on the mend.  Mooneys are being bought more often than before...

Anyone Doing a blind Mooney search immediately finds MS... and planes for sale.

A nice well kept C will find its buyer.  

As long as there is competition, the prices stay pretty firm...

It only takes one other shark in the water to set the price.  The other shark will have to make the next move if he wants to be the owner.

Do you like the plane enough to negotiate a price?

 

As for planes sitting on the market... 

There may be a point in life where the last 50amu isn't that important if it is tied up or not.  

You can only sell the plane once to get your money back.  The sale is final. 'Realizing' the actual loss happens at the closing.

Lots to consider when buying and selling machines...

Best regards,

-a-

[David_H]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

 

I specifically passed on two different 252's because they had recent paint jobs and the seller was asking a premium on its account. I got a better plane at a much lower price and was able to put the difference into a much nicer panel that has significantly raised the enjoyment quotient of the flying. Someday I'll have new paint and it will be my own color and scheme... or Byron's if I can convince him to sign it over 

My priorities are very similar and I don't think this line-of-thinking represents a minority... those pesky buyers and their priorities.

I've read a few threads talking about waiting for the "right" buyer to come around. I would imagine those sellers have someone in their ear telling them what they want to hear. I just shake my head.

I've yet to read a thread where someone has said they bought specifically because of the paint scheme. Maybe I missed it though.

[David_H]

3 minutes ago, carusoam said:

The best part of discussing this plane openly, endlessly...

It isn't a hidden barn find...

It isn't a steal...

 

Now, I’d be afraid a competing buyer swooping in and grabbing it up...  before I could arrange  PPI.

Somebody Needing to artfully spend money before the tax year end.

 

 

If that happens then a great service has been provided to both the buyer and the seller. A buyer would know not to overpay and the seller would know to be more realistic. Thats a win-win in my eyes.

[carusoam]

Capitalism at its best!  

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, whiskytango said:

Let's hope that the Buyer, whomever they may be, has the engine cylinders borescopes and the cam lobes checked as part of the PPI.  A plane sitting in Georgia for a year without having been flown is a candidate for engine corrosion.

I don't think there's any way to check the cam lobes without pulling a cylinder or two or all of them. I also don't know of any owner who would or has, allowed that as part of a PPI. Borescoping cylinders, yes. But you'll take your chances with the cam.

[whiskytango]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I don't think there's any way to check the cam lobes without pulling a cylinder or two or all of them. I also don't know of any owner who would or has, allowed that as part of a PPI. Borescoping cylinders, yes. But you'll take your chances with the cam.

You are correct about the cam inspection.  I had it done as part of my PPI (which I converted to an annual) because a cylinder was being replaced due to compression below TCM limits.  It would not have been done if the cylinder wasn't being pulled.

[BKlott]

On 12/31/2017 at 9:59 AM, Tx_Aggie said:

Is this from myairplane.com?


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It is from Aviation DB or Aviation Database. Do a query on the Registration number and you can find this info.

[David_H]

On 12/31/2017 at 2:10 PM, David_H said:

The perfect plane will never be available since everyones idea of perfect is different and I'm completely ok with that.

Buying the perfect plane would be a phenomenal challenge... and near impossible for anyone to accomplish.

I'll be happy if I'm fortunate enough to get by without being the next poor soul to be saddled with spar corrosion, a spalled cam, or any other multitude of things that could easily happen.  

[MIm20c]

30 minutes ago, David_H said:

I'll be happy if I'm fortunate enough to get by without being the next poor soul to be saddled with spar corrosion, a spalled cam, or any other multitude of things that could easily happen.  

Much more important is not buying a ticking time bomb that forces you to find a nice wide street in the middle of a city.  The rest can be fixed with a few dollars here and there.