Practicing stalls in a Mooney

[RobertGary1]

3 hours ago, Guitarmaster said:

It's about training. Train like you fly and fly like you train. Do you do partial power takeoffs? Probably not. So a partial power stall is negative training.
 

That's what a high altitude take off is unless you have a turbo. A more likely departure stall scenario is a high density altitude departure with a nearly flat deck angle. Students should be aware that an extreme pitch is not a prerequisite for an actual departure stall. 

Personally, its more important students understand the difference in pre-stall behavior during a power on stall (less pre-buffeting due to the stall happening further out on the wing), so Im more interested in the student describing the stall indication sensations. 

 

-Robert

[donkaye, MCFI]

3 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Don, my first experience with a cross controlled stall was in a Navy T-34B as a primary student.  The demo was to emphasize why keeping the ball centered is important.  The maneuver resulted in a(n unintentional) spin.  I learned a lot that day.

A cross controlled (excessive bottom rudder) stall and intentional spin entry are pretty darn close.  To take an airplane which is placarded against intentional spins and use it to practice cross-controlled stalls seems like something best left to test pilots and the suicidal.  A supercub, or a Citabria seems a better choice of aircraft.

Cross controlled stalls aren't prohibited in a Mooney, but spins are prohibited.  Cross controlled stalls should be taught in primary training, especially those out of a skid where the bottom wing stalls first.  At the time, the FAA had placed emphasis on LOC from base to final, so I thought I'd have students "practice"  that situation. Most recovered immediately with no issue.  The last one did not.  At least I was smart enough to start the practice at 6,000 feet.  That was 21 years ago, and I haven't had any students do one since that time---and won't.

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Inadvertent_Spins_in_a_Mooney.html

[N201MKTurbo]

While practicing uncoordinated approach stalls is a bad thing. I think practicing approach stalls out of a coordinated turn is a good thing. That is the most likely place to stall and the stall you truly need to recover with minimum altitude loss.

[RobertGary1]

43 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

While practicing uncoordinated approach stalls is a bad thing. I think practicing approach stalls out of a coordinated turn is a good thing. That is the most likely place to stall and the stall you truly need to recover with minimum altitude loss.

Way back on my initial CFI checkride the examiner had me do a 1/2 dozen departure stalls at different bank angles. A full power stall in a right 50 degree bank darn near bottoms out the rudder.

 

-Robert

Edited December 18, 2017 by RobertGary1

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

That's what a high altitude take off is unless you have a turbo. A more likely departure stall scenario is a high density altitude departure with a nearly flat deck angle. Students should be aware that an extreme pitch is not a prerequisite for an actual departure stall. 

Exactly. I was giving a lesson to a transient visiting Colorado and he climbed out based on his standard sea level pitch attitude rather than targeting the increased Vy and learning what that looked like. My admonitions to lower the nose were met by, "it's ok. This always works." Rather than give a density altitude stall lesson at 300 AGL, I pushed the nose over physically. We did it at altitude and he was surprised how relatively flat the nose was when the stall took place.

There are also other "partial power" scenarios - partial losses of power, carb heat accidentally being left on in carbureted engines, not keeping hand on throttle and it sliding back  - most of which are far more realistic because they produce stalls in "normal pitch attitudes"  than the feet-on-the-horizon-nose-in-an-unusual-attitude power on stall we have almost all been exposed to.

[201er]

Just now, midlifeflyer said:

Exactly. I was giving a lesson to a transient visiting Colorado and he climbed out based on his standard sea level pitch attitude rather than targeting the increased Vy and learning what that looked like. My admonitions to lower the nose were met by, "it's ok. This always works." Rather than give a density altitude stall lesson at 300 AGL, I pushed the nose over physically. We did it at altitude and he was surprised how relatively flat the nose was when the stall took place.

There are also other "partial power" scenarios - partial losses of power, carb heat accidentally being left on in carbureted engines, not keeping had on throttle and it sliding back  - most of which are far more realistic because they produce stalls in "normal pitch attitudes"  than the feet-on-the-horizon-nose-in-an-unusual-attitude power on stall we have almost all been exposed to.

Good point. Whereas AOA is AOA. Stalls and stall speeds make perfect sense when you do them power off straight ahead at 1g. When you start introducing varied power settings, turns, and loads, it's not so straightforward any more. The horizontal component of lift and the vertical component of thrust are often overlooked. An AOA indicator is impartial to these factors and keeps you aware of lift reserve regardless of DA, bank angle, or weight. It also helps you establish Vy or best glide more accurately.

[Mooneymite]

One other factor to consider when practicing stalls in a Mooney is that not all Mooneys are perfectly rigged.  I could see where an out-of-rig Mooney might scare the bejeepers out of an unsuspecting pilot.

Bill Wheat took pride in delivering Mooneys that had been test flown and conformed to his standards.  However, over the years, planes can get badly out of rig.  If your plane won't stall "straight", it might be wise to have the rigging checked before venturing into test pilot territory.

[201er]

6 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

One other factor to consider when practicing stalls in a Mooney is that not all Mooneys are perfectly rigged.  I could see where an out-of-rig Mooney might scare the bejeepers out of an unsuspecting pilot.

Bill Wheat took pride in delivering Mooneys that had been test flown and conformed to his standards.  However, over the years, planes can get badly out of rig.  If your plane won't stall "straight", it might be wise to have the rigging checked before venturing into test pilot territory.

Do they redo the stall strips after a gear up or wing damage repair?

[RobertGary1]

49 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

One other factor to consider when practicing stalls in a Mooney is that not all Mooneys are perfectly rigged.  I could see where an out-of-rig Mooney might scare the bejeepers out of an unsuspecting pilot.

Bill Wheat took pride in delivering Mooneys that had been test flown and conformed to his standards.  However, over the years, planes can get badly out of rig.  If your plane won't stall "straight", it might be wise to have the rigging checked before venturing into test pilot territory.

True, I have about a 40 degree roll off. In fact few Mooneys I've taught in actually stall straight.

 

-Robert

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

One other factor to consider when practicing stalls in a Mooney is that not all Mooneys are perfectly rigged.  I could see where an out-of-rig Mooney might scare the bejeepers out of an unsuspecting pilot.

Bill Wheat took pride in delivering Mooneys that had been test flown and conformed to his standards.  However, over the years, planes can get badly out of rig.  If your plane won't stall "straight", it might be wise to have the rigging checked before venturing into test pilot territory.

When I first bought my current Mooney I did a departure stall and it was a full on aerobatic maneuver! After fixing the rigging it stalls nice and straight. I don't think you would need to change the stall strips. The same thing that fixes a heavy wing will usually fix bad stall behavior. Matter of fact it is good to go try some stalls after adjusting the rigging to see if it needs more work.

[201er]

13 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When I first bought my current Mooney I did a departure stall and it was a full on aerobatic maneuver! After fixing the rigging it stalls nice and straight. I don't think you would need to change the stall strips. The same thing that fixes a heavy wing will usually fix bad stall behavior. Matter of fact it is good to go try some stalls after adjusting the rigging to see if it needs more work.

Ok, how about fuel disbalance. Nothing to do with rigging but present on nearly every flight. Fact is, there are lots of things that can cause it to spin in addition to poor piloting technique.

[gsxrpilot]

Is there a basic problem here with pilots just not being in touch with the airplane their flying? I've always thought flying "by the book" was less useful than actually flying "by the seat of the pants". These are little airplanes and are not difficult to feel how they are flying. Uncoordinated flight can be felt as can a wing that is struggling to fly.

I once took off out of Alpine, TX, 4515 ft elevation, in the summertime with a DA of about 6500 ft. with too much up trim. This was in my M20C. While the sight picture was normal, the wing was really struggling. I quickly pushed the nose over with one hand while trimming with the other hand. We climbed out slowly but surely.

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

Good point. Whereas AOA is AOA. Stalls and stall speeds make perfect sense when you do them power off straight ahead at 1g. When you start introducing varied power settings, turns, and loads, it's not so straightforward any more. The horizontal component of lift and the vertical component of thrust are often overlooked. An AOA indicator is impartial to these factors and keeps you aware of lift reserve regardless of DA, bank angle, or weight. It also helps you establish Vy or best glide more accurately.

But the whole time we did slow flight, your AOA indicator showed fully stalled even though we had enough margin for a 30 degree banked turn.  I’m all for gadgets but not the kind that are purported to replace airmanship, especially the ones that aren’t as accurate as a good  pilot. 

If your AOA shows you on the donut and you’re flying faster than 1.3 Vso then it’s a disservice. Boeing airplanes have no AOA.  They have speeds based on weight and an additive for headwinds and gust. It works every time.  

Edited December 18, 2017 by jetdriven

[201er]

5 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

But the whole time we did slow flight, your AOA indicator showed fully stalled even though we had enough margin for a 30 degree banked turn.  I’m all for gadgets but not the kind that are purported to replace airmanship, especially the ones that aren’t as accurate as a good  pilot. 

If your AOA shows you on the donut and you’re flying faster than 1.3 Vso then it’s a disservice. Boeing airplanes have no AOA.  They have speeds based on weight and an additive for headwinds and gust. It works every time.  

I don't remember if that was during clean or dirty config. I think the scale is most accurate in landing approach configuration.

[ArtVandelay]

I wonder how much speed those stall strips are costing me?
Mine are the same so technically they don’t help regarding balance.

[aviatoreb]

7 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

One other factor to consider when practicing stalls in a Mooney is that not all Mooneys are perfectly rigged.  I could see where an out-of-rig Mooney might scare the bejeepers out of an unsuspecting pilot.

Bill Wheat took pride in delivering Mooneys that had been test flown and conformed to his standards.  However, over the years, planes can get badly out of rig.  If your plane won't stall "straight", it might be wise to have the rigging checked before venturing into test pilot territory.

I always wondered what makes a plane go badly out of rig with time?  I mean it’s not like our bodies that go badly out of rig with time...

[Mooneymite]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

I always wondered what makes a plane go badly out of rig with time?  I mean it’s not like our bodies that go badly out of rig with time...

I'm just guessing that the biggest culprits are the paint shops.  The other culprits are probably hangar elves....they mean well, but don't have a clue.

[Bartman]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

I always wondered what makes a plane go badly out of rig with time?  I mean it’s not like our bodies that go badly out of rig with time...

I would think it has to do with someone putting their foot where it should not be. First someone steps on the inboard edge of the flap on entry or exit and next thing you know it does not fly straight and level. Then someone adjusts an aileron to lift a low wing and then we are off to the races. 

[Mooneymite]

Just now, Bartman said:

 Then someone adjusts an aileron to lift a low wing and then we are off to the races. 

"Someone"....   you mean the hangar elves?

[RobertGary1]

19 hours ago, Bartman said:

I would think it has to do with someone putting their foot where it should not be. First someone steps on the inboard edge of the flap on entry or exit and next thing you know it does not fly straight and level. Then someone adjusts an aileron to lift a low wing and then we are off to the races. 

I've found that I can adjust my flaps to fly straight when deployed or to stall somewhat straight when deployed but not both. So I accept a bit of left roll after deployment to avoid too much roll off during stall. Basically I adjusted them to reduce roll in stall vs flying straight. Not sure why the two wouldn't be coincidental. But if you're adjusting to fly straight might see how they react during a stall.

-Robert

[Bartman]

My J will stall straight if I keep the ball centered, and she flies straight true and level both with and without flaps.

My friend just bought a J and the ailerons are noticeably drooping, but I don't know what it looks like in flight. He's about to finish his PP and then transition to the Mooney. His instructor who he will also use for transition used to own a Mooney and I told him to make sure the instructor knows it is out of rig and may not stall straight. In the spring we will take it down to KMRN to have the rigging adjusted, and if we are lucky maybe even meet @Bob_Belville

[RobertGary1]

Like @donkaye said, I always do the first stall first myself before having the student do them. I've seen a lot of roll off on some Mooneys so I'm not too likely to be frightened.

 

-Robert