Gee-Bee seals on an E/C w/doghouse baffle

[HRM]

Can anybody with an E or C with a doghouse who has installed the Gee-Bee seals post a picture or share a link?

Detailed PIREP on the install would be nice too.

Thanks!

[carusoam]

Bring @GEE-BEE in...?

This ^^^ sends them a crumb trail to lead them here....

If he has a photo, he is pretty quick with sharing.

Best regards,

-a-

[Sabremech]

You might want to look at the "Unapproved parts" thread in the Misc section. Not saying he doesn't make good parts, but could be setting yourself up with a grounded airplane in the future. 

[Guest]

I don't see how having a commercial entity cut baffle seals makes them un approved, when we as maintainers have been buying rolls and sheets and cutting our own isn't. 

Clarence

[HRM]

2 hours ago, Sabremech said:

You might want to look at the "Unapproved parts" thread in the Misc section. Not saying he doesn't make good parts, but could be setting yourself up with a grounded airplane in the future. 

I am not getting any photos, am I.

First, my E is 52 years old. When you consult the PM, you find the seal as P/N #912003-2, seal, rubber. Good luck finding it. So now you get to "owner manufactured parts" (or whatever, not quite sure of the terminology). Gee-Bee takes a strip of rubbery material, and let's admit that 'rubber' is a nebulous term, that is satisfactory to me. He laser cuts the rubber, holes and all, to match the original fitment. I put it on and log it. What am I missing?

Oh yeah, the goddamn photos.

[1964-M20E]

owner produced part IMHO you are good.

 

[Sabremech]

57 minutes ago, HRM said:

I am not getting any photos, am I.

First, my E is 52 years old. When you consult the PM, you find the seal as P/N #912003-2, seal, rubber. Good luck finding it. So now you get to "owner manufactured parts" (or whatever, not quite sure of the terminology). Gee-Bee takes a strip of rubbery material, and let's admit that 'rubber' is a nebulous term, that is satisfactory to me. He laser cuts the rubber, holes and all, to match the original fitment. I put it on and log it. What am I missing?

Oh yeah, the goddamn photos.

The parts you describe are finished parts without PMA, hence the reason for the FAA issuing an unapproved parts letter. I understand that they're "just" baffle seals but they are finished and ready for installation. The owner did nothing in the process to fulfill the requirements of owner produced parts. 

You certainly can buy baffle seal material and cut them yourself and then sign them off in your logbook as owner produced. 

I'd like to see Gee Bee get a PMA as I'd like to use their parts in my cowling mod kits, but because there's that letter from the FAA with unapproved parts, won't until that's cleared up. 

[Bob_Belville]

25 minutes ago, Sabremech said:

The parts you describe are finished parts without PMA, hence the reason for the FAA issuing an unapproved parts letter. I understand that they're "just" baffle seals but they are finished and ready for installation. The owner did nothing in the process to fulfill the requirements of owner produced parts. 

You certainly can buy baffle seal material and cut them yourself and then sign them off in your logbook as owner produced. 

I'd like to see Gee Bee get a PMA as I'd like to use their parts in my cowling mod kits, but because there's that letter from the FAA with unapproved parts, won't until that's cleared up. 

I note that Gee Bee offers quite a few parts besides baffle seals. I wonder if the FAA's issue with them might involve some of those other parts and that if it were only the seals whether it would be a federal case. I don't know, just "wondering".

[Bob_Belville]

19 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I understand and even respect David’s position on this.  The thing is, though, that Guy’s baffle seal kits, while very well done, are anything but a “bolt on” experience.  A lot of custom trimming and drilling is still required. All opportunities for the owner to “produce” the final installed parts. 

"Owner provided" McFarlane control cables require the owner to send McFarlane the old cable or, as I did 3 times, provide McFarlane with 2 or 3 dimensions. The owner makes no input as to materials and methods involved in the manufacture of these critical engine and prop accessories.  

[Sabremech]

A few requirements for owner produced parts that the owner must do at least one part of: provide the original part for replication, provide a drawing of the part, provide the materials for the part or assist in making the part. 

I've done a few owner produced parts for several customers as it's much faster and less expensive than a PMA part, especially if there's only one part needed. 

[MARZ]

1 minute ago, Sabremech said:

A few requirements for owner produced parts that the owner must do at least one part of: provide the original part for replication, provide a drawing of the part, provide the materials for the part or assist in making the part. 

I've done a few owner produced parts for several customers as it's much faster and less expensive than a PMA part, especially if there's only one part needed. 

Sounds like a final fitment trim should fulfill the requirements?

[HRM]

33 minutes ago, Sabremech said:

A few requirements for owner produced parts that the owner must do at least one part of: provide the original part for replication, provide a drawing of the part, provide the materials for the part or assist in making the part. 

Interesting. Last night I emailed Guy with Figure 39, Engine Baffle Assembly (1965-1966), so I guess I am now good with his seals.

He could always leave out one of the pre-punched holes on one of the strips and then I could use my handy-dandy HF leather hole punch and thus "assist in making the part". Of course, once I get them I might notice that one of the holes could be a skosh larger and punch it accordingly.

This discussion illustrates the ungodly nonsense that occurs when one starts to misinterpret the intent of the regulations. What the FAA wants to do is keep inferior parts from getting onto a certified aircraft. It does this via the PMA process, which serves as a protection for the aircraft owner from a company producing parts for sale. If, however, the owner trusts the source and has confidence that whatever the thing is that is going onto their plane is equivalent or better than the original manufactured part, then all is good. The latter is pretty much the basis for the FAA allowing homebuilts into the airspace.

(PS: I'll be happy to take a PM'd photo if the provider doesn't want to reveal that they have used Guy's seals. Mums the word!)

Edited October 30, 2017 by HRM
Plea for a photo.

[Sabremech]

35 minutes ago, HRM said:

Interesting. Last night I emailed Guy with Figure 39, Engine Baffle Assembly (1965-1966), so I guess I am now good with his seals.

He could always leave out one of the pre-punched holes on one of the strips and then I could use my handy-dandy HF leather hole punch and thus "assist in making the part". Of course, once I get them I might notice that one of the holes could be a skosh larger and punch it accordingly.

This discussion illustrates the ungodly nonsense that occurs when one starts to misinterpret the intent of the regulations. What the FAA wants to do is keep inferior parts from getting onto a certified aircraft. It does this via the PMA process, which serves as a protection for the aircraft owner from a company producing parts for sale. If, however, the owner trusts the source and has confidence that whatever the thing is that is going onto their plane is equivalent or better than the original manufactured part, then all is good. The latter is pretty much the basis for the FAA allowing homebuilts into the airspace.

(PS: I'll be happy to take a PM'd photo if the provider doesn't want to reveal that they have used Guy's seals. Mums the word!)

I'd proceed with caution as the FAA is watching his parts. Is it worth the potential headache whether you agree with the FAA's position or not? 

[1964-M20E]

My dog house on my former E was cracking and already had many repairs.  I had a complete dog house made and I only sent the shop a letter asking them to make the baffles for me as owner produced parts.  In fact he even sent me a letter to reference when writing my own.  They knew what to do and the baffles that came back were very well made.  I think he has a PMA on them now.

[Sabremech]

39 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

My dog house on my former E was cracking and already had many repairs.  I had a complete dog house made and I only sent the shop a letter asking them to make the baffles for me as owner produced parts.  In fact he even sent me a letter to reference when writing my own.  They knew what to do and the baffles that came back were very well made.  I think he has a PMA on them now.

Is this Air Forms? 

[HRM]

5 hours ago, Sabremech said:

I'd proceed with caution as the FAA is watching his parts. Is it worth the potential headache whether you agree with the FAA's position or not? 

If you read the FAA notification, it addresses use of Gee-Bee seals as replacement parts. Frankly, I admit to being something of a sh*thouse lawyer, and I think using them as owner produced parts, and I have already explained how that would work, would be quite defensible and given the new, kinder, gentler FAA would most likely not garner any attention from them at all. Basically they are saying that an A&P should not order the seals and install them on a certified A/C since they are not PMA'd; i.e., the FAA cannot vouch for them. Totally different path with owner produced, where the owner accepts responsibility for the veracity of the part.

I really wanted the Airforms replacement for the M20E doghouse, but they have abandoned the project. They did offer their seal kit:

Hello Harley, 

The seal kit has all the seals that go around the engine. Since the baffles for that aircraft model are not FAA/PMA approved, I do not have any pictures or information to send you to show how they attach, or anything. I'm sorry I can't be more specific about this particular seal kit. It does however come with all the seals around the baffles, which are cut to shape out of .093 silicone that has fiberglass reinforcement in the center of the seal material. We send AD4-5 hard rivets & 1/2" washers as backing plates to attach the seal to the baffles. The seal also comes with pre-drilled holes in it. If you would like us to send you the seal kit without the holes, we can do that as well. Just need to know that you do NOT want the holes pre-drilled, if you choose to order that way. Let me know if you have any further question and I'll try to help any way I can. 

 

 

[Hank]

My doghouse resurrection has been one crack, one nut plate, one broken piece at a time. How'd you get a whole new one? I can't even get a good sheet metal guy to look at mine . . . . 

[1964-M20E]

8 hours ago, Sabremech said:

Is this Air Forms? 

yes

 

[1964-M20E]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

My doghouse resurrection has been one crack, one nut plate, one broken piece at a time. How'd you get a whole new one? I can't even get a good sheet metal guy to look at mine . . . . 

Airforms

[Hank]

You mean it doesn't have to be like this?

[HRM]

14 hours ago, Hank said:

You mean it doesn't have to be like this?

Jeez, that looks pretty good. Quit yer bitchen.

[Hank]

I don't need baffling or hoses, I need sheet metal that isn't cracked, doesn't have doubler plates with a dozen extra rjvets, or edges so worn that they are razor sharp and hard to piece together . . . . .

[bruce_m20e]

On 10/31/2017 at 3:12 AM, Hank said:

You mean it doesn't have to be like this?

Any way to see these pictures yet?

[Hank]

20 minutes ago, bruce_m20e said:

Any way to see these pictures yet?

They used to be there, but we're lost in the last server change. Let's see . . . . Jan 2017 . . . .

Note that these are AFTER the repair. I'd stilling a new doghouse. Even better, a set of baffles to REPLACE the doghouse. Alas . . . . .  

[bruce_m20e]

oof, these are beautiful compared to mine...  I am doing a lot of research for baffles, and dog house kits, I am going to make a call to airforms monday... heres to hoping.  Mine are so worn and deteriated, my AP says he can make them but estimates a full week worth of his time at 130/hr...