Running a tank dry in flight

[Shadrach]

Quote: jetdriven

You may know you have 8-9 gallons on board, and that is a fine legal VFR reserve.  The average C-J Mooney can run for over an hour on that.  Without an accurate totalizer add a couple more for margin of error. The problem is that you cannot accurately know how many gallons are in each tank. The fuel guages both indicate empty or nearly so. So, you may guess its 3 gallons in the L and 5 gallons in the R.  It might be the opposite, or it might be 2 gallons in the L and 6 in the R.  You are now turning downwind with a tank that has 2 gallons in it rather than the 5. Ask Ross how it feels to run a tank dry on short final.  Better to do it controlled and at a higher altitude than near thge ground where you are dead.  If it was 7 gallons in one tank, then well, you could even make a "prolonged severse sideslip" feeding from the low tank and still be alright.

Its called fuel management. Half of all planes that crash from fuel starvation still have fuel on board.  Procedures.  Training. Proficiency.  Confidence. Knowledge.

[jetdriven]

That brings up another thing that I always do, switch to fullest tank at top of descent.  I try to time it to where it is empty then or nearly so, but switch then anyways to not forget later.    I hear you, Ross. I drained my right tank with the gascolator pull on the ground, and it takes 2 Hours to drain out 20 gallons.  Forever, really.

[Becca]

Quote: GeorgePerry

Enclosed is what the MAPA pilot proficiency program has to say about fuel missmanagment.  I submit those who think letting a tank run dry are the future 7 percenters...

[Hank]

Quote: jetdriven

That brings up another thing that I always do, switch to fullest tank at top of descent.  I try to time it to where it is empty then or nearly so, but switch then anyways to not forget later.    I hear you, Ross. I drained my right tank with the gascolator pull on the ground, and it takes 2 Hours to drain out 20 gallons.  Forever, really.

[jetdriven]

Perhaps the unfamiliarity and uncomfortableness of running a tank dry to extend range is part of the cause of fuel mismanagement? And if it does happen, its an event becuase they dont know how to handle it.

 

Inadvertenlty running a tank dry is different than doing it on purpose.  Same with Stalls.

The reason we practice stalls, for example is not to stall the airplane, but to recognize the conditions, symptoms, and to deal with the situation and recover from it. One could make a point that doing full stalls in a Mooney is risky, as a spin can cause a crash.  But we do them anyway becuase a pilot needs to experience it.

[Shadrach]

Quote: Hank

 Isn't it easy, and much faster, to remove the drain from the bottom of the wing? Unless, of course, that was already a problem and why you drained the tank.

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: jetdriven

Perhaps the unfamiliarity and uncomfortableness of running a tank dry to extend range is part of the cause of fuel mismanagement? And if it does happen, its an event becuase they dont know how to handle it.

Inadvertenlty running a tank dry is different than doing it on purpose.  Same with Stalls.

The reason we practice stalls, for example is not to stall the airplane, but to recognize the conditions, symptoms, and to deal with the situation and recover from it. One could make a point that doing full stalls in a Mooney is risky, as a spin can cause a crash.  But we do them anyway because a pilot needs to experience it.

[orangemtl]

Personally, I plan to determine the accuracy of my fuel gauges by HIRING a CFI to fly around, and empty the tanks for me. Alone.

Worth it.  Let his adrenaline go up; not mine, thanks.

[Shadrach]

Quote: orangemtl

Personally, I plan to determine the accuracy of my fuel gauges by HIRING a CFI to fly around, and empty the tanks for me. Alone.

Worth it.  Let his adrenaline go up; not mine, thanks.

[201er]

If you can get him to spin it too, I think there is a certain someone on this forum that would pay him for you to do it

[thinwing]

Michael..hiring a cfi to prove accuracy of fuel guages would just work once...for him...on that one given day with those conditions of temp etc...and you could do it cheaper by hiring mechanic to drain all the fuel out of your tanks and than read the guages every 2 gal or so as he refilled the tank...still wouldnt help you..only time and experience will do that to the point that your own confidence will build enough to not mind burning down a tank of its useful fuel as normal operating procedure...something you probably have trouble imagining now just as physcians could never imagine a steerable needle 20 years ago...regards kp couch

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: carusoam

Anybody see a fuel pressure gage in an Ovation? 

 

[WardHolbrook]

Here's a question for you experienced guys...

How do you test your "fuel continuity" from each tank prior to each takeoff?

[jlunseth]

Start up and do your pre-taxi on one tank, taxi on the second tank, then switch back to the first tank for runup and takeoff.  Put it in your checklist(s).

[MARZ]

Quote: WardHolbrook

Here's a question for you experienced guys...

How do you test your "fuel continuity" from each tank prior to each takeoff?

[carusoam]

Ward,

 

There are few things I don't like about the missing pressure gauge.  It is difficult to get the changeover point of the empty fuel tank.  We can't just pressurize the fuel system for a hot start.  If the fuel pump craps, there is an obvious piece of data missing.

 

It is all available elsewhere, but it is like using a TC as a replacement for an AH.  It works, just not as well....IMHO

 

I intentionally ran a tank very low/dry once for the experience.  I don't fly as far as the plane is capable, so I don't use the technique.  

 

I visually check fuel levels prior to every flight.  I have accurate wing gages, instrument panel gages and the totalizer.  The only thing that would be better is a pressure gauge.

 

Run one dry if you want to.  The system is designed to operate that way.  I suspect that it will be a big leak or a mental error if they both run dry.  

 

Best regards,

 

-a-

 

 

 

[Carl S]

Since this thread isn't quite dead yet....

To answer the OP question I have (intentionally) run a tank dry on a few airplanes. Gruman Cheetah/Tiger, no problem. Piper Warrior, no problem. Long EZ, no problem. Mooney E and J, still no problem.  

I don't guess a release from a tow plane counts as running out of fuel but the Schweitzer 1-36, Grob 102/103, and the Blanik L23, also no problem. (Although, off airport landigs are a bit easier to be sure.) 

[Bartman]

New to the forum, but have followed for a while. After reading this thread I decided to use this technique on my most recent flight. Flying the mooney I am blessed with a generous useful load. I flew my wife, brother and his wife to Destin for a long weekend, taking off at max takeoff weight. We watched the fuel consumption on the engine monitor and my brother watched the fuel pressure gauge when we got close on the first tank. It started bouncing about 1-2 needle widths for the last few minutes and then we switched tanks before it even stumbled. We landed with 9 gallons in one tank, just as my calculations and engine monitor said we would.

Unfortunately with 35 to 45 knot headwinds out of the north on Sunday we had to stop on the way back to get fuel about midway.

[orangemtl]

Quote: Shadrach

While you're at it, pay him to stall it, practice short fields, and slip it as well. Might as well pay him to do some partial panel work "for you" as well. Taking in the experience, proper procedures and theories of others regarding these different situations, while eliminating the hastle and adrenline of doing them yourself, is sure to make you a better pilot...theoretically.

[jetdriven]

I agree not to run a tank all the way to shutdown on a turbo engine at high altitude. You can run it until the fuel pressure wavers though.

Running a tank extends the range of your aircraft and allows you to land with a tank still above a reasonable margin.  you also can get the 3 gallons unusable fuel too.  It swhat professional pilots do, but they are all "reckless" by some comments on this board.  I have PIC time in 60 different makes of airplanes and somehow its dangerous behavior. Dividing your remaining fuel among two or more tanks can be hazardous.  Some airplanes have as many as 7 tanks, should you leave an hour of fuel in each of those? 

There are those who say they will "never" run low on fuel but these are the ones who run out of fuel at night because there was no fuel stop, thery werent sure how many gallons were in each tank, and they have to get to work in the morning. The plane always can fly for 3:45 but after that?  Who knows?  At least see it under controlled conditions. Yes, the same reason we practice stalls.  Further, yes, I have landed with less than 45 minutes fuel about 4 times in 12 years and something like 7000 flights.  I also remained in control of the situation and always left myself an "out". Keeping careful tabs on your fuel, and your time enroute will avoid a fuel starvation and exhaustion event.

There are those pilots who will "never" get close to a stall and come ove the numbers at 90 knots.   "never" land in a crosswind, and then lose control in a crosswind at their home field when winds are not as forecast. "never" fly at night until they are delayed at departure.  The number one description of a plane crash pilot was he was a "careful, cautious, pilot".  Cautious meaning don't approach limits.  Until the needs of the situation demand them, and the pilot cannot deliver.

It seems we have the high time ATP's on one side saying they have been running tanks to empty for 20 years and 10,000 hours and the 100-400 hour private pilots calling them "stupid". Step back and examine that for a minute.

If your airplane does not start after running a tank dry then  it is not airworthy.  It is a certification requirement. But you don't know if it will or not. BTW if you have never ran a tank to empty and refilled it how do you know how much fuel the tank holds?  Have you ever personally verified it? Do you really have 89 gallons?

If you want to increase safety, don't practice partial panel.  Modernize the system.  Get rid of the turn coordinator and get yourself a second attitude indicator. The information is out there but it is infinitely safer. than needle - ball - airspeed. No partial panel condition is possible if you have two attitude indicators.

It is surprising sometimes what people think of for safety and what is overlooked.  Just suggestions. you can have utility as well as safety with your airplane.  What is even more surprising is pilots considering flying their airplane over gross weight, which is a FAR violation, but that same set of pilots refuses to runa  tank below 10 gallons a side!

Quote: orangemtl

I believe there's a subtle difference between stall & slip practice, and measuring fuel tank capacity. One is flying an aircraft: the other is measuring. A. Tank.

I have a turbo. From everything that I can see, emptying tanks is not a particularly valuable practice with turbos. I switch my tanks frequently, and keep fuel totals even within about 15%. I have a builtin reminder at 30 minute intervals on the panel, so as to avoid forgetting. I monitor both gauges religiously. I NEVER allow myself to get into the yellow on both tanks, and I carry 89 gallons at the tabs. Tell me: where's the upside of emptying a tank?

Curiosity?  Not that curious.

Practice?  If a tank runs out, I'll switch to the other, say a few prayers, and probably it's going to restart. Unless it doesn't, whereupon all the tank measurements in the world don't mean d--k.

Stall practice is important. Partial panel is important. Emergency procedures are important. Having a backup means of navigation is important. Emptying my tanks? Thanks; I'll just go play in traffic, instead.

[jetdriven]

A challenge to all of those "run a tank dry it won't restart" believers.   Can anyone find an accident report where a pilot ran  a tank dry and could not restart the engine on the other tank containing fuel? This seems to be a big fear of the pilots who have never ran a tank empty.

 

 

 

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Points To Ponder

 

 

Aircraft Systems

 

Anyone attempting to fly this P-40 should first get a thorough checkout on its systems and quirks.

 

 

Older airplanes do not follow modern certification rules on switch positions or operation of their systems. For example, fuel systems can be incredibly complex on even small, single-engine airplanes. Flying without first doing one’s homework and fully understanding the airplane's systems is too often fatal. Even a devoted warbird pilot such as Jeff Ethell apparently made his final error with a fuel system of the P-38, running a tank dry under conditions in which he could not restart the engine. [EDITOR'S NOTE: AVweb includes the NTSB's final report on the Jeff Ethell P-38 crash.] Before you get in, know how to get at all the fuel in the airplane, where any return fuel from a fuel-injected engine goes so you don’t overfill a tank (early Bonanzas return fuel to the left tank, Cessna 310s return fuel to the mains only), and how to shut off all of the fuel to the engine(s) should you desire. Does the fuel selector handle function by pointing the long or short end at the detent? Is the electrical system 12- or 24-volt? Does it matter? Why? How does it work in an emergency? How much oil does the engine hold? What is the minimum amount?

 

 

The older the airplane, the more likely the systems are to have a design philosophy which is unfamiliar and probably counterintuitive to you. It is wise to have a good working knowledge of the systems when something goes south in flight rather than to try and puzzle things out under stress.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Low gas level caused crash, report says



BY MICHAEL ARMSTRONG
STAFF WRITER

Lack of fuel probably caused a Yukon Island plane crash last year that injured the pilot and three passengers of a Smokey Bay Air flight from Seldovia to Homer, the National Transportation Safety Board concluded in a report released May 28.

 

Photo by Ben Mitchell Rescuers respond to the Yukon Island crash last year

"It is probable that the pilot inadvertently allowed the left tank to run dry, and was unable to restart the engine prior to the emergency landing," NTSB investigator Scott Erickson wrote in his report.

The Cessna 206 piloted by Jenn Foltz crashed on a beach on the island about six miles from Homer on June 19, 2008. The accident severely injured Foltz and passengers James Pastro, both of Homer, Teresa Cook of Nanwalek and Cledia Larrison of Seldovia. Cook was seven months pregnant and lost her infant son, Joakim Adam Cook, in the accident. A rapid response from Homer Volunteer Fire Department emergency medical technicians and doctors and EMTs with a kayaking tour on the island helped save the lives of the victims. Maritime Helicopters flew an EMT to the scene and picked up the patients.

Smokey Bay Air owner Claire McCann criticized the report, emphasizing that it determines a probable not a definite cause of the accident.

"That's what people have to remember," she said. "They (the NTSB) haven't determined what caused the accident. Their determinations aren't clear and wouldn't stand up in a court of law."

According to the accident investigation, the Cessna 206 had a half-gallon of fuel in its left wing tank. The right wing tank had been breached in the crash, and two witnesses said they saw fuel draining onto the beach. The Cessna 206 stores fuel in a bladder inside the left and right wings. The NTSB report said the fuel selector was turned to the left tank at the time of the crash, with "about a drop of fuel" in the engine manifold. Investigators recovered the engine from the crash and restarted it without trouble on a test stand.

At issue is how much fuel Foltz put in the accident plane and how much remained before the crash. Why or how she switched from a tank that possibly held fuel to one almost empty, or if she switched at all, is not explained in the report. The report also raises the question of if she followed the proper procedure for restarting an engine in flight when a tank runs dry.

When interviewed in July 2007, Foltz said she had no memory of the crash or of the flight beyond taking off from Seldovia. She submitted a statement to the NTSB saying she did not remember how much fuel she put in the accident plane, but said that she typically would add about 30 gallons.

Foltz started her work day at about 8:32 a.m., and flew three flights in another Smokey Bay Air Cessna 206. The NTSB reported that a Smokey Bay Air employee said he saw Foltz switch to the accident plane, N72067, also a Cessna 206, and fuel the plane at about 9:45 a.m. The employee didn't know how much fuel Foltz put in. Foltz's log book showed that she switched to the accident plane at 10:14 a.m., but the report doesn't explain the discrepancy between the time when the employee said he saw her fuel the accident plane and the time she logged taking over the plane.

The NTSB said McCann told them the usual procedure was for pilots to fill the left wing tank, which held about 40 usable gallons of fuel. The pilot would put a reserve of one hour of fuel in the right tank, or about 16 gallons of usable fuel, McCann said. According to Cessna 206 operating manuals, and because of the Cessna's design, about two gallons of fuel can't be used in each tank.

McCann said her pilots have the responsibility to check the fuel and make sure there's enough fuel for the flight. Her pilots tend to fuel the plane heavy, that is, with more fuel than might be needed, she said.

"The pilot knows how much fuel is on board that plane," McCann said. "They would never intentionally depart with a discrepancy even the thought they wouldn't have enough fuel to make a round trip."

Foltz flew the Cessna from Homer to Seldovia, landed, then went to Nanwalek, where she picked up two passengers, Pastro and Cook. She then returned to Seldovia, where she picked up Larrison and 246 pounds of cargo. She left Seldovia and crashed on the return to Homer.

Smokey Bay Air measured fuel burn this April for its Cessna 206s, and calculated a fuel consumption rate of about 15.07 gallons an hour. Erickson calculated the Cessna 206 would have burned 8 gallons on takeoffs. Based on Foltz's flight logs, Erickson calculated her flight time between 10:14 a.m. until the crash at 11:03 a.m. as being about 41 minutes, not including time on the ground.

Using fuel calculations provided by Smokey Bay Air for the accident airplane, and assuming Foltz did not refuel the plane, it would have had 19.45 gallons of usable fuel in both tanks left over from the previous pilot when Foltz took over the plane, Erickson wrote in the report. With 41 minutes of flight, the accident plane would have burned about 10.30 gallons, and with four takeoffs, about 18.30 gallons of fuel burned in total.

"Fuel remaining calculations by the operator and the NTSB IIC (investigator) are based on unverified amounts of fuel that were remaining in the accident airplane when it was received from the first pilot," Erickson wrote. "As the actual amount of fuel left in the airplane by the previous pilot could not be determined, the actual amount of fuel remaining in the airplane at the time of the accident is unknown."

The NTSB report said other factors might have contributed to the crash, including that Foltz allowed airspeed to drop, causing a stall.

"The probable cause is the best thing we could come up with," Erickson said in explaining how the NTSB made its report. "Lacking firm findings or factual findings, you have to go through that process: What do we know for sure? What are the findings? What's the probable result of that?"

"Basically, we'll probably never know what happened," McCann said.

McCann said Smokey Bay Air has changed its fuel-logging policies as a result of the crash and introduced more redundancies.

"Now there's a company sharing of responsibility of everything that goes on," she said. "It was there before, but it wasn't a written procedure. We've made written policy changes."

Foltz is still recovering from her injuries and has not returned to work as a pilot. McCann didn't know her future plans.

"She made the best of a bad situation," McCann said of the crash.

One witness to the crash praised Foltz's flying.

"Jenn did a very good job of getting the plane to the beach," Brian Miller, a Halibut Cove resident who saw the accident from his boat, said after the accident.

Pastro is still on medical leave from his job with the borough, said his supervisor, Richard Campbell.

The NTSB report, including a full narrative, is available as a link online through the Homer News Web site at http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070626X00811&key=1.

[jetdriven]

here is the link to the actual NTSB report.  http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20070626X00811&ntsbno=ANC07FA051&akey=1

The fuel selector was found on the left tank and the left tank was empty.  Some witnesses saw fuel pouring out of the right wing after the crash.    So what is your point?  This is simple fuel starvation.  THe condition I am advocating preventing.

Quote: 201-FLYER

Low gas level caused crash, report says

BY MICHAEL ARMSTRONG

STAFF WRITER

Lack of fuel probably caused a Yukon Island plane crash last year that injured the pilot and three passengers of a Smokey Bay Air flight from Seldovia to Homer, the National Transportation Safety Board concluded in a report released May 28.

 

  Photo by Ben Mitchell

Rescuers respond to the Yukon Island crash last year  

"It is probable that the pilot inadvertently allowed the left tank to run dry, and was unable to restart the engine prior to the emergency landing," NTSB investigator Scott Erickson wrote in his report.

The Cessna 206 piloted by Jenn Foltz crashed on a beach on the island about six miles from Homer on June 19, 2008. The accident severely injured Foltz and passengers James Pastro, both of Homer, Teresa Cook of Nanwalek and Cledia Larrison of Seldovia. Cook was seven months pregnant and lost her infant son, Joakim Adam Cook, in the accident. A rapid response from Homer Volunteer Fire Department emergency medical technicians and doctors and EMTs with a kayaking tour on the island helped save the lives of the victims. Maritime Helicopters flew an EMT to the scene and picked up the patients.

Smokey Bay Air owner Claire McCann criticized the report, emphasizing that it determines a probable not a definite cause of the accident.

"That's what people have to remember," she said. "They (the NTSB) haven't determined what caused the accident. Their determinations aren't clear and wouldn't stand up in a court of law."

According to the accident investigation, the Cessna 206 had a half-gallon of fuel in its left wing tank. The right wing tank had been breached in the crash, and two witnesses said they saw fuel draining onto the beach. The Cessna 206 stores fuel in a bladder inside the left and right wings. The NTSB report said the fuel selector was turned to the left tank at the time of the crash, with "about a drop of fuel" in the engine manifold. Investigators recovered the engine from the crash and restarted it without trouble on a test stand.

At issue is how much fuel Foltz put in the accident plane and how much remained before the crash. Why or how she switched from a tank that possibly held fuel to one almost empty, or if she switched at all, is not explained in the report. The report also raises the question of if she followed the proper procedure for restarting an engine in flight when a tank runs dry.

When interviewed in July 2007, Foltz said she had no memory of the crash or of the flight beyond taking off from Seldovia. She submitted a statement to the NTSB saying she did not remember how much fuel she put in the accident plane, but said that she typically would add about 30 gallons.

Foltz started her work day at about 8:32 a.m., and flew three flights in another Smokey Bay Air Cessna 206. The NTSB reported that a Smokey Bay Air employee said he saw Foltz switch to the accident plane, N72067, also a Cessna 206, and fuel the plane at about 9:45 a.m. The employee didn't know how much fuel Foltz put in. Foltz's log book showed that she switched to the accident plane at 10:14 a.m., but the report doesn't explain the discrepancy between the time when the employee said he saw her fuel the accident plane and the time she logged taking over the plane.

The NTSB said McCann told them the usual procedure was for pilots to fill the left wing tank, which held about 40 usable gallons of fuel. The pilot would put a reserve of one hour of fuel in the right tank, or about 16 gallons of usable fuel, McCann said. According to Cessna 206 operating manuals, and because of the Cessna's design, about two gallons of fuel can't be used in each tank.

McCann said her pilots have the responsibility to check the fuel and make sure there's enough fuel for the flight. Her pilots tend to fuel the plane heavy, that is, with more fuel than might be needed, she said.

"The pilot knows how much fuel is on board that plane," McCann said. "They would never intentionally depart with a discrepancy even the thought they wouldn't have enough fuel to make a round trip."

Foltz flew the Cessna from Homer to Seldovia, landed, then went to Nanwalek, where she picked up two passengers, Pastro and Cook. She then returned to Seldovia, where she picked up Larrison and 246 pounds of cargo. She left Seldovia and crashed on the return to Homer.

Smokey Bay Air measured fuel burn this April for its Cessna 206s, and calculated a fuel consumption rate of about 15.07 gallons an hour. Erickson calculated the Cessna 206 would have burned 8 gallons on takeoffs. Based on Foltz's flight logs, Erickson calculated her flight time between 10:14 a.m. until the crash at 11:03 a.m. as being about 41 minutes, not including time on the ground.

Using fuel calculations provided by Smokey Bay Air for the accident airplane, and assuming Foltz did not refuel the plane, it would have had 19.45 gallons of usable fuel in both tanks left over from the previous pilot when Foltz took over the plane, Erickson wrote in the report. With 41 minutes of flight, the accident plane would have burned about 10.30 gallons, and with four takeoffs, about 18.30 gallons of fuel burned in total.

"Fuel remaining calculations by the operator and the NTSB IIC (investigator) are based on unverified amounts of fuel that were remaining in the accident airplane when it was received from the first pilot," Erickson wrote. "As the actual amount of fuel left in the airplane by the previous pilot could not be determined, the actual amount of fuel remaining in the airplane at the time of the accident is unknown."

The NTSB report said other factors might have contributed to the crash, including that Foltz allowed airspeed to drop, causing a stall.

"The probable cause is the best thing we could come up with," Erickson said in explaining how the NTSB made its report. "Lacking firm findings or factual findings, you have to go through that process: What do we know for sure? What are the findings? What's the probable result of that?"

"Basically, we'll probably never know what happened," McCann said.

McCann said Smokey Bay Air has changed its fuel-logging policies as a result of the crash and introduced more redundancies.

"Now there's a company sharing of responsibility of everything that goes on," she said. "It was there before, but it wasn't a written procedure. We've made written policy changes."

Foltz is still recovering from her injuries and has not returned to work as a pilot. McCann didn't know her future plans.

"She made the best of a bad situation," McCann said of the crash.

One witness to the crash praised Foltz's flying.

"Jenn did a very good job of getting the plane to the beach," Brian Miller, a Halibut Cove resident who saw the accident from his boat, said after the accident.

Pastro is still on medical leave from his job with the borough, said his supervisor, Richard Campbell.

The NTSB report, including a full narrative, is available as a link online through the Homer News Web site at http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070626X00811&key=1.

 

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Sorry....you asked the question and I thought I was answering it

According to the article...The report also raises the question of if she followed the proper procedure for restarting an engine in flight when a tank runs dry.