About time I fessed up

[steingar]

And in just a couple short weeks the aircraft will be outfitted with an IFR GPS, a new radio, and an ADS-B transponder.

[RLCarter]

On November 1, 2017 at 12:52 PM, steingar said:

Good news is the aircraft got its Pitot Static check yesterday and I start IFR training soon.  All i got is a VOR and DME, but that will have to do for now.

 A VOR and DME is all you need, getting your IR is very rewarding and adds a lot of utility to your flying..........spent many a morning waiting on the low ceilings 

[steingar]

7 hours ago, RLCarter said:

 A VOR and DME is all you need, getting your IR is very rewarding and adds a lot of utility to your flying..........spent many a morning waiting on the low ceilings 

Here you can spend many  week waiting on low ceilings.  I live in the land of slate grey skies.

[Raptor05121]

8 hours ago, RLCarter said:

 A VOR and DME is all you need, getting your IR is very rewarding and adds a lot of utility to your flying..........spent many a morning waiting on the low ceilings 

I'm ILS/VOR/DME only and my only hang up with IFR is say I takeoff into that soup- I have no way down. The only non-WAAS approach is the ILS into Jacksonville International, about 45 minutes away.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Here you can spend many  week waiting on low ceilings.  I live in the land of slate grey skies.

You can say that again! The wonderful drivers in Columbus have as many extra wrecks on sunny days as on rainy ones, but traffic zips along smoothly when overcast . . . .

Fly safe, and drive safer up there!

[mooniac15u]

The FAA is decommissioning 308 VORs and effectively relegating VORs to a backup navigation status.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/july/26/faa-releases-vor-policy

It will become increasingly difficult to operate in the IFR system without a certified GPS.

[Raptor05121]

9 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

The FAA is decommissioning 308 VORs and effectively relegating VORs to a backup navigation status.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/july/26/faa-releases-vor-policy

It will become increasingly difficult to operate in the IFR system without a certified GPS.

Which is a shame. For a 26 year old to spend $10,000 on a piece of equipment for a luxury item is...beyond laughable.

[Andy95W]

39 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

I'm ILS/VOR/DME only and my only hang up with IFR is say I takeoff into that soup- I have no way down. The only non-WAAS approach is the ILS into Jacksonville International, about 45 minutes away.

Valdosta shows in AirNav as 32 miles away and it has ILS and 2 VOR approaches (for now).

The real question is the minimum vectoring altitude in your area, which is probably about 2,000 feet.  ATC can give you vectors to that altitude and then you can accept a visual approach.

The Instrument rating still has a lot of utility, even without GPS.

[DonMuncy]

1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said:

Which is a shame. For a 26 year old to spend $10,000 on a piece of equipment for a luxury item is...beyond laughable.

I understand (and agree with) your point. I suspect that back when they first started setting up VORS and later, ILSs, a bunch of folks had the same thoughts about VOR receivers, etc. I suppose when one is 26 and on a relatively limited budget, he would fly VFR with an IPad for emergencies, then move up to VORs and then GPSs when they can afford to. Just more of the problem that aviation is an expensive endeavor.  

[mike_elliott]

On 11/1/2017 at 10:24 AM, jetdriven said:

Tail stalls are a myth in the short and mid body airplanes, and a rumored event in the long body. 

Like Ross I go out and get my three landings.  A mid weight J will  stop in 800' repeatably without abusing the plane. 

Hummm....tell that to the widow of Joel Smith and the girlfriends of Max Rae...

[kris_adams]

Thanks for sharing as well.  I only hope I could be as open if I were in the same situation!

[steingar]

3 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

The FAA is decommissioning 308 VORs and effectively relegating VORs to a backup navigation status.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/july/26/faa-releases-vor-policy

It will become increasingly difficult to operate in the IFR system without a certified GPS.

There is a good reason I'll be mortgaging my dogs and my skivvies to get an IFR GPS in the airplane.

[mooniac15u]

Just now, steingar said:

There is a good reason I'll be mortgaging my dogs and my skivvies to get an IFR GPS in the airplane.

I thought you had already purchased a used unit.

[steingar]

Just now, mooniac15u said:

I thought you had already purchased a used unit.

I did indeed, off this site.  Its going in the Week of thanksgiving, along with a new radio and an ADSB transponder.  I'm having the guys at KBJJ do the installations.  My time has come to learn IFR.  The aircraft can do it.  I hope things are going well back at Bolton.  I am glad I did the move, way more folks a little ways north.

[Raptor05121]

3 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Valdosta shows in AirNav as 32 miles away and it has ILS and 2 VOR approaches (for now).

The real question is the minimum vectoring altitude in your area, which is probably about 2,000 feet.  ATC can give you vectors to that altitude and then you can accept a visual approach.

The Instrument rating still has a lot of utility, even without GPS.

Good point. I'll have to look that up.

So you're saying if I'm at lets say...6'000 feet, its overcast at 3,000 at my home airport... ATC can talk me down below the clouds, I get into VFR conditions and then cancel IFR? That does seem worthwhile then. I just have a basic understanding of some of this stuff so I'm still awestruck by the terms and everything.

I'm calling my CFI tomorrow and seeing if we can get back into this

 

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Hummm....tell that to the widow of Joel Smith and the girlfriends of Max Rae...

I don't wish to speak to the relatives of the deceased, but more info on the accident(s) to which you're referring would be constructive.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Shadrach

[DonMuncy]

10 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I don't wish to speak to the relatives of the deceased, but more info on the accident(s) to which you're referring would be constructive.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20040809X01164&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

So you're saying if I'm at lets say...6'000 feet, its overcast at 3,000 at my home airport... ATC can talk me down below the clouds, I get into VFR conditions and then cancel IFR? That does seem worthwhile then. I just have a basic understanding of some of this stuff so I'm still awestruck by the terms and everything.

I used to be based at a field with no approaches. When conditions were IMC coming home, everyone would file for KHTS, the Class D across the River. If we broke out at a decent altitude, cancel IFR and go home; if we broke out above minimums and only slightly below pattern altitude, we'd level off and ask for Special VFR. 

If it was too low, we'd land there and hitch a 30 minute ride back to our car. The flight back was very short--downwind departure from our preferred 26 led directly into right base for HTS's 30; straight line distance was 4 nm.

IFR is a very, very useful rating! Midwest winters can have low scud keeping VFR traffic on the ground, but 30 seconds IMC will often put you in bright sunshine. Just be sure there's no ice!

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, DonMuncy said:

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20040809X01164&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA

I've seen the report before. Did I miss the mention of the tail stall in the text?   Mike was inferring he knew of a crash where a tail stall was the cause. I've never encountered so much as a tail buffet in my bird and I've stalled it in about every configuration imaginable.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Shadrach

[mike_elliott]

Per my conversations with Don Maxwell, the owner of the plane and the employer of the 3 deceased, Max loved to slip the plane full flaps, in spite of the known danger of taking the wind off the tail at slower speeds. Don's view was it went inverted because of a tail stall, Killing David, Max and Joel. This was very traumatic for Don, as it was his best friend, his lead Mechanic, and his new hire from Mooney Joel Smith. I had about 4 hours in that plane prior to it's demise.

Please don't slip your plane below 90 kts with full flaps. Short body, mid or long. No sense in it. Learn to stabilize your approaches or buy into aerobatic plane to play in. But don't believe it just because I say it,  Bob Kromer will say the same thing. I know, I have asked him. I believe @DonKaye even has a post to Bob's article on it on his website and Don is of the same opinion.  

[Skates97]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Per my conversations with Don Maxwell, the owner of the plane and the employer of the 3 deceased, Max loved to slip the plane full flaps, in spite of the known danger of taking the wind off the tail at slower speeds. Don's view was it went inverted because of a tail stall, Killing David, Max and Joel. This was very traumatic for Don, as it was his best friend, his lead Mechanic, and his new hire from Mooney Joel Smith. I had about 4 hours in that plane prior to it's demise.

Please don't slip your plane below 90 kts with full flaps. Short body, mid or long. No sense in it. Learn to stabilize your approaches or buy into aerobatic plane to play in. But don't believe it just because I say it,  Bob Kromer will say the same thing. I know, I have asked him. I believe @DonKaye even has a post to Bob's article on it on his website and Don is of the same opinion.  

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I thought I had read in other places that it was not an issue with the Short body?

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Per my conversations with Don Maxwell, the owner of the plane and the employer of the 3 deceased, Max loved to slip the plane full flaps, in spite of the known danger of taking the wind off the tail at slower speeds. Don's view was it went inverted because of a tail stall, Killing David, Max and Joel. This was very traumatic for Don, as it was his best friend, his lead Mechanic, and his new hire from Mooney Joel Smith. I had about 4 hours in that plane prior to it's demise.

Please don't slip your plane below 90 kts with full flaps. Short body, mid or long. No sense in it. Learn to stabilize your approaches or buy into aerobatic plane to play in. But don't believe it just because I say it,  Bob Kromer will say the same thing. I know, I have asked him. I believe @DonKaye even has a post to Bob's article on it on his website and Don is of the same opinion.  

Mike, I appreciate the explanation, especially given how close you were to those involved. It's a sad tale and I'm sure Don has some solid reasoning behind his theories. I wish I knew what they were, especially given that this plane was over 2700lbs at the time of the accident. It would seem at that weight it would be more aft CG than a plane with just a test pilot.  

Tail stall or not, an uncoordinated stall in a Mooney can result in a pronounced roll. I have done skidding stalls at altitude in my aircraft and it typically rolls past 90 degrees and takes more than 300ft to recover. 

Here is Kromer's take on Mooney tail stalls. It seems highly unlikely in a C model.

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Shadrach

[Urs_Wildermuth]

On 10.10.2017 at 3:59 AM, steingar said:

But I certainly don't have the confidence to land a 2K strip.

2k ft? That is over 600 m?

Our normal training field has 1640 ft asph and it is plenty enough for a C model unless there are obstacles.

I do recall that initially I also had landings where I ate the field lenght without ever getting on the ground but this is simply a question of good speed control and getting used to the visual cues outside the window. 75 mph should be more than enough as well. What I found challenging at first was to keep the proper pitch attitude and height in the flare. It is very easy to get that wrong and if so, you land hard. After a while though you get the visual picture right and from then on it's easy.

 

I would not beat myself up over this, you had bad luck I reckon. The way I went about it was to train landings on longer fields but setting myself a distance I want to achieve (e.g. at ZRH I have a 8000 ft runway but the first exit is at 1600 ft, so I always try to aim at that one when training short field landings). Clearly, it is different if the glide path is steeper than the normal 3 degrees and you have obstacles as apparently you had here.

[mike_elliott]

7 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Mike, I appreciate the explanation, especially given how close you were to those involved. It's a sad tail and I'm sure Don has some solid reasoning behind his theories. I wish I knew what they were, especially given that this plane was over 2700lbs at the time of the accident. It would seem at that weight it would be more aft CG than a plane with just a test pilot.  

Tail stall or not, an uncoordinated stall in a Mooney can result in a pronounced roll. I have done skidding stalls at altitude in my aircraft and it typically rolls past 90 degrees and takes more than 300ft to recover. 

Here is Kromer's take on Mooney tail stalls. It seems highly unlikely in a C model.

 

Ross, I agree it seems highly unlikely in in C model, and virtually impossible if flown coordinated. I was responding to Byron's post that it was a myth in short and mid bodies, and don't want the Mooney "utes" like  Skates to think it wont happen to them. My wife writes way to many letters to family members as it is. They are better served heeding the advice of someone with Bob Kromer's expertise. While I cannot cite any personal experience of a tail buffet in a short body, I have, in my younger days, caught one on my F in a very aggressive slip. You have to react backwards, and it isn't a natural thing.

 

 

[Raptor05121]

2 hours ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

2k ft? That is over 600 m?

Our normal training field has 1640 ft asph and it is plenty enough for a C model unless there are obstacles.

Agreed. I am 80 and off the ground well before the first 1,000 foot markers. I flew in a 172 the other day, we weren't even to 60kts as we rolled past the 1,000 footers. I actually got a bit worried. O-300 is an underpowered dog.