Garmin G-5 to control autopilots!!

[KSMooniac]

Plus if you are starting steam guage as many of us are, then that $14k is the complete parts cost for the GFC500 since it includes two G5's doesn't it?  But for the GFC600, then you need to add onto that $24k the cost of at least an aspen install, which is another 14k?  Or a G500 which is what, $22K?  So thats either 38k or 46k, Labor not included vs 14k labor not included.

The GFC600 does not need an Aspen or G500. The autopilot is self-contained in the box that goes in the avionics stack. I think it will talk to G5 instruments just fine if you choose to go that route.

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[kevinw]

I really hope down the road that they allow third party PFDs to interface with the GFC500. I would be very interested in this if so. I won't pull my Aspen and even if the 600 was STCd for the J/K models I could never justify the cost. In a long body the 600 would make more sense.

[N6758N]

4 minutes ago, kevinw said:

I really hope down the road that they allow third party PFDs to interface with the GFC500. I would be very interested in this if so. I won't pull my Aspen and even if the 600 was STCd for the J/K models I could never justify the cost. In a long body the 600 would make more sense.

I'm curious what makes you think the 600 vs the 500? And a J really isn't a long body, its a mid-body. I think the 500 would do a fine job flying any model M20. Garmin probably chose the 600 for the A36 because they know a lot of Beech guys love dumping money into their airplanes. 

[Godfather]

6 minutes ago, kevinw said:

I really hope down the road that they allow third party PFDs to interface with the GFC500. I would be very interested in this if so. I won't pull my Aspen and even if the 600 was STCd for the J/K models I could never justify the cost. In a long body the 600 would make more sense.

Won't happen.  They won't even allow the companies g500 panel to be used with the 500 AP.  However, my guess is the 500 AP will only be sold through Garmin dealers so you will not get the "10 hours in my own hanger" installs.  It wouldn't surprise me if the end user price difference between the 500 and 600 being 6-8k with the 500 user getting a "free" G5 or two. 

[kevinw]

I'm curious what makes you think the 600 vs the 500? And a J really isn't a long body, its a mid-body. I think the 500 would do a fine job flying any model M20. Garmin probably chose the 600 for the A36 because they know a lot of Beech guys love dumping money into their airplanes. 

Sorry, I probably wasn't very clear. I wouldn't consider the 600 if it was available because of the expense. If I owned a long body model I would. I agree the 500 should work well on all M20 models but I'm predicting, like many others, that the 500 will be Approved for short and mid bodies and the 600 will be approved for long body models.


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[ArtVandelay]

What's interesting in the article is they flew a C172 with the GFC500 without electric trim or the yaw damper and they don't think either is necessary. The yaw damper may not be necessary but I think the electric trim is a must. Why invest that much money in an AP and have to trim it manually?

Especially if you have VS climbs, couple approaches...Im a firm believer that either the AP flies the plane or the pilot does, not a fan of sharing that duty.
The only concern is the runaway trim scenario.

[ArtVandelay]

For the GFC 500, I see it as 2 GS 28 servos @ $1,500 each, 1 GMC 507 @ $2,995 and the GFC 500 install kit for $1,000 totaling up to their $6,995 figure for the basic Pitch/Roll installation. To do the Pitch Trim at the same time, you add another GSA 28 ($1,500) and the GFC 500 install kit goes up to $1,500 bringing the parts price to $8,995. Adding the Pitch Trim at a later date will run you an extra $100 over doing it at initial install. And then you still have the dual G5 HSI/AI for the prices [mention=11770]kevinw[/mention] noted. That brings you up to $13,593 before installation. Like [mention=8059]aviatoreb[/mention] said, $14K labor not included.

The servos are $750 each:

So for standard vs pitch,trim
Gmc507 3000 3000
Servos 1500 2250
Installkit 1000 1500

Thats $5500 vs $6750, plus a G5s

[aviatoreb]

20 hours ago, N6758N said:

Erik,

The TruTrak Vizion system has both the emergency level feature and the angle bank protection which is similar to the envelope protection. I thought I saw it also had speed envelope protection as well. 

Will that help keep me from getting stupid and accidentally getting too slow in level flight even when hand flying?

Not that I am planning on getting stupid, but I am well aware that everyone can make a mistake and planning to build in as many fail safes as possible can only help.

What was the name of the Mooney test pilot who made just that error one day, and who perished in a classic base to final turn - surprisingly despite his enormous experience.  That to me is a lesson not that he was stupid, but that if even he can make a mistake, then clearly so can I.

Another thing is clear to me in this thread - we do not know what will be available for MY airplane at this time, but something will be.  So I changed my mind.  I will not install a G5 with GPSS premptively in October during my annual, since I do not want to get cornered into having to remove it soon thereafter if some other autopilot is the best or only available.  Best to let this all shake out for 6-9 months.  And hope my legacy stuff keeps on ticking.

[N6758N]

3 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

The servos are $750 each:

So for standard vs pitch,trim
Gmc507 3000 3000
Servos 1500 2250
Installkit 1000 1500

Thats $5500 vs $6750, plus a G5s

Those are the experimental versions of the servos hence the cheaper price, correct? 

[aviatoreb]

41 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

The GFC600 does not need an Aspen or G500. The autopilot is self-contained in the box that goes in the avionics stack. I think it will talk to G5 instruments just fine if you choose to go that route.

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Huh - that's interesting.  So as I understand it this is an autopilot that needs attitude, so does that mean it has a built in AHARS - not that I doubt it could.  My iphone has a built in AHARS.

This makes the GFC600 not so drastically more expensive, but still, I like the idea of 14k including two G5s.  That's a complete autopilot and glass panel.

As for FIKI vs not FIKI if that is the line they choose in the sand, then wohoo for my no-FIKI tks system.

[N6758N]

The GFC600 has built in AHARs, the 500 does not, hence the need for a G5. 

[mike_elliott]

32 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

The only concern is the runaway trim scenario

I think that is a King proprietary feature...

[KSMooniac]

The GFC600 has built in AHARs, the 500 does not, hence the need for a G5. 

This is correct. I think their target will be those planes with G500, maybe Aspens, and maybe even legacy G1000 planes with the 55x instead of the GFC700. The GFC600 is essentially the 700 as a standalone installation with optional connections to other instruments.

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[Oldguy]

37 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

The servos are $750 each:

So for standard vs pitch,trim
Gmc507 3000 3000
Servos 1500 2250
Installkit 1000 1500

Thats $5500 vs $6750, plus a G5s

That may be, but I was using the price list you used from Nexair Avionics, and I would not be surprised if @N6758N is correct about the ones from Spruce being the experimental version. It always seems putting the letters "FAA-PMA" behind a part number increases the price geometrically!

[N6758N]

3 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

That may be, but I was using the price list you used from Nexair Avionics, and I would not be surprised if @N6758N is correct about the ones from Spruce being the experimental version. It always seems putting the letters "FAA-PMA" behind a part number increases the price geometrically!

Yep, pretty sure the PMA servos are twice the cost. In the autopilot seminar I sat in at OSH, Garmin also mentioned that the price for a GFC500 system would increase for other aircraft as compared to the C-172 kit. So we can't even compare the base price for the 172 until we know what the M20( ) system will cost. 

[aviatoreb]

Just now, N6758N said:

Yep, pretty sure the PMA servos are twice the cost. In the autopilot seminar I sat in at OSH, Garmin also mentioned that the price for a GFC500 system would increase for other aircraft as compared to the C-172 kit. So we can't even compare the base price for the 172 until we know what the M20( ) system will cost. 

..there's always, trutrek.

and trio.

and dynon.

Gotta love competition!

[N6758N]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

..there's always, trutrek.

and trio.

and dynon.

Gotta love competition!

Personally I have my eyes on the Trutrak, I confirmed with them at OSH that their system will be $5k plus $100 for the STC, even in our Mooneys. It has almost all the nice features as the Garmin GFC500 but its at least $2k cheaper, plus it does not require a G5. Off Topic- Did you get your airplane painted yet Erik?

[ArtVandelay]

1 hour ago, N6758N said:

Those are the experimental versions of the servos hence the cheaper price, correct? 

Good ?, the table was not from Garmin, but a dealer, that would explain the difference.

 

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, N6758N said:

Personally I have my eyes on the Trutrak, I confirmed with them at OSH that their system will be $5k plus $100 for the STC, even in our Mooneys. It has almost all the nice features as the Garmin GFC500 but its at least $2k cheaper, plus it does not require a G5. Off Topic- Did you get your airplane painted yet Erik?

Hi - thanks for asking....I hope to be posting paint and interior pictures in about two weeks!  Stand by....

So it will look all new except the panel at that point. And we are talking panel here.  

[ArtVandelay]

Personally I have my eyes on the Trutrak, I confirmed with them at OSH that their system will be $5k plus $100 for the STC, even in our Mooneys. It has almost all the nice features as the Garmin GFC500 but its at least $2k cheaper, plus it does not require a G5.

Did you sign up as interested in the STC?

[N6758N]

23 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Did you sign up as interested in the STC?

Yep, I also had my partner sign up as well so that should count for two. 

[Bob - S50]

22 hours ago, N6758N said:

Personally I have my eyes on the Trutrak, I confirmed with them at OSH that their system will be $5k plus $100 for the STC, even in our Mooneys. It has almost all the nice features as the Garmin GFC500 but its at least $2k cheaper, plus it does not require a G5. Off Topic- Did you get your airplane painted yet Erik?

Personally, I'm leaning toward the Trio.  I like the display and interface of the Trio better than the Trutrak.  I prefer both of them over the Garmin because they will both fit in a standard round panel cutout.  I have a spare cutout.  The Garmin has to fit in the stack because it won't fit where our KFC200 panel sits.  That means moving radios around or having it mounted way over in the right hand stack.

The Garmin does have a few nicer features, but for less money (hopefully) the other two will do most of what I need.  And they don't ...require... the G5.  I would still probably get the G5's, but I have other options and can build the system a little at a time as parts of the KFC system fail.

The GFC500 will do constant airspeed or rate climbs.  The Trio will too, but you have to change a setting to do that.  The GFC500 will give me a flight director if I want to fly by hand.  The other two will not.  It would be a raw data approach if flying by hand.  On the other hand, if the G5 fails, the GFC500 becomes useless.  The other two can still fly the approach.

[ArtVandelay]

I think 2 G5s will give you the redundancy you want . The GFC500 will also do ILS approaches, TT and Trio are GPS only. The TT flat pack will fit in the center console of the J where the factory AP was installed.

My biggest problem is I don't have faith they will be certified for Mooney in this decade.

 

[Bob - S50]

On 8/25/2017 at 8:27 AM, teejayevans said:

I think 2 G5s will give you the redundancy you want . The GFC500 will also do ILS approaches, TT and Trio are GPS only. The TT flat pack will fit in the center console of the J where the factory AP was installed.

My biggest problem is I don't have faith they will be certified for Mooney in this decade.

 

I guess I don't understand.  I'm guessing there are not separate 'data' wires running from my GTN650 to my HSI or autopilot.  I assume the GTN simply looks at the deviation from course and glideslope whether that is from an LPV or an ILS.  If the GTN sends out the same signal for either a GPS based or ILS based approach, I don't know why the Trio or Trutrak couldn't fly an ILS for me.  How would the autopilot know whether it is following a GPS rather than an ILS?

[PMcClure]

My electric standby AI went out this weekend and I was thinking of replacing it with the G5. Taking steps toward the G5 primary and replacing the KFC 2225 with a Garmin A/P someday. Questions:

1. Anyone has experience with installation costs on the G5 in the standby position?

2. Could I/Should I consider moving the G5 to the primary location and the KI265 to the standby?

3. Or should I just replace the standby with another standby?