Flaps on touch and go

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Jim Peace said:

A lot of time for who?  What about the corporate jet or any other normal flight holding short burning tons of fuel while waiting for a 65 knot plane 3 miles out to land and clear only to see them touch and go and then hog up the departure path......and sometimes another right behind......

its all about me................

I trained out of a very busy Class D airport. Often on a Saturday they would split the R/L runways on separate frequencies to handle the volume. There were a number of occasions while doing pattern work and touch-and-goes that the tower would extend out my upwind or downwind to accommodate other planes that were arriving, departing, or entering the pattern. I have had them deny the request for a touch-and-go because of traffic and have also had them only approve a touch-and-go or go around, again to accommodate other traffic. Never once heard them tell someone who had called in to hold somewhere because of traffic in the pattern. I was also on with SoCal Approach a number of times arriving at the airport and never once had them give us a hold for traffic in the pattern so it's not like approach was placing people in holding patterns instead of handing them off to the tower.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the job of the tower/ground to provide sequencing? When did it become the pilots job to be aware of the corporate jet and or other normal flight somewhere out there and decide "Hey, I think I'll land and taxi back so that guy has a chance to land."

And, before I get accused of the "it's all about me" line, I have made changes to my approach to accommodate other planes. Recently extended out a downwind in the baking sun in St George (non-towered) to allow a regional jet to land ahead of me. I was already in the downwind but he wanted to make a straight in approach. It put me in the air a few more minutes, I think I lost an extra pound of sweat. I think my call was "I'll extend out to let you go in first" and got a "thanks" from him.

[Jim Peace]

42 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

When did it become the pilots job to be aware of the corporate jet and or other normal flight somewhere out there and decide "Hey, I think I'll land and taxi back so that guy has a chance to land."

It is just being courteous.  

There are many things you will become aware of to help out or be kind to fellow aviators.  ex:  Don't shine your landing light into the cockpit of another plane that is operating at night.  If you fly a jet or turbo prop (mostly in the USA) get your IFR clearance before you start your engines.  Then start your plane and leave, As much as you may think you are cool, no one wants to hear your plane on the ramp for 10 or 15 minutes while you get your crap together.  Don't bring the courtesy car back with zero fuel on board.  Watch your jet exhaust....I do not know how many times I have seen corporate flight departments have to pay for damage from inconciderate pilots, see enclosed pictures from SLC this year, this happens all the time.  The list goes on and on...

fly the world for 30+ years and maybe you will have a different opinion........or maybe not......

Edited June 30, 2017 by Jim Peace

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

A lot of time for who?  What about the corporate jet or any other normal flight holding short burning tons of fuel while waiting for a 65 knot plane 3 miles out to land and clear only to see them touch and go and then hog up the departure path......and sometimes another right behind......

its all about me................

 

 

If we're worried about 65 knot approach speeds, we just ground all the Mooneys!

Clarence

[StinkBug]

6 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

A lot of time for who?  What about the corporate jet or any other normal flight holding short burning tons of fuel while waiting for a 65 knot plane 3 miles out to land and clear only to see them touch and go and then hog up the departure path......and sometimes another right behind......

its all about me................

 

 

If I make a full stop landing I'm on the runway just as long if not longer since I have to find an exit and clear the runway, and that corporate jet is waiting just as long for me to get there. Your point is a poor one. Also, if I do a full stop taxi back I've now added to the line on the ground, and the jet on the taxiway behind me has to wait that much longer. TnG  is more efficient for everybody. If the tower needs to depart faster traffic behind me they simply ask me to offset my upwind. Happens all the time. If they have IFR traffic on the approach they ask me to extend my downwind or take a short approach. Sequencing is their job, and at my field they are pretty damn good at mixing Cessna 150s with Gulfstreams. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by StinkBug

[jaylw314]

18 hours ago, M20Doc said:

In more than 30 years of aircraft maintenance I've never seen a Cessna with more than one flap motor.  The motor is in the right wing, it turns a large pulley/bellcrank, a set of cables run through the upper cabin above the head liner out to a pulley/bellcrank in the left wing,. These rotate in unison to extend or retract the flaps.

Clarence

I stand corrected.  I assumed because I saw one side seize up it must have been two separate motors, but I suppose one bell crank could have seized.  Thanks for clearing that up!

[Shiny moose]

I trained out of a very busy Class D airport. Often on a Saturday they would split the R/L runways on separate frequencies to handle the volume. There were a number of occasions while doing pattern work and touch-and-goes that the tower would extend out my upwind or downwind to accommodate other planes that were arriving, departing, or entering the pattern. I have had them deny the request for a touch-and-go because of traffic and have also had them only approve a touch-and-go or go around, again to accommodate other traffic. Never once heard them tell someone who had called in to hold somewhere because of traffic in the pattern. I was also on with SoCal Approach a number of times arriving at the airport and never once had them give us a hold for traffic in the pattern so it's not like approach was placing people in holding patterns instead of handing them off to the tower.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the job of the tower/ground to provide sequencing? When did it become the pilots job to be aware of the corporate jet and or other normal flight somewhere out there and decide "Hey, I think I'll land and taxi back so that guy has a chance to land."
And, before I get accused of the "it's all about me" line, I have made changes to my approach to accommodate other planes. Recently extended out a downwind in the baking sun in St George (non-towered) to allow a regional jet to land ahead of me. I was already in the downwind but he wanted to make a straight in approach. It put me in the air a few more minutes, I think I lost an extra pound of sweat. I think my call was "I'll extend out to let you go in first" and got a "thanks" from him.

I'm not sure I want to stir this pot but!
I have done tower requested 360s on a downwind (hold) because of an emergency on an airliner. I have had a wing lifted on a taxi because of an airliner powering up while I was behind them( always be prepared) i have also given center the other dudes (friend) tail number and told them I wouldn't mind holding and to let the other guy in first ( me), this was ifr and NDB aproaches, I did cancel as soon as I could( we both had a good laugh about this) . Don't tell the Feds! I will always let a corporate dude or airliner in or out before me, I will slow down if I hear them coming in and I will be getting in there way, if I'm fun flying, I have done loads and loads of T&Gs but don't think they prepare you for anything and just save time. They have there place, it's not a go around, they take more runway than an on speed full stop in a Mooney ( if your doing this because of a runway obstruction) This is all fun stuff, it's about having fun isn't it
Sharing our experiences, so others know it isn't so bad when they get to experience a new happening.



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[Marcopolo]

  There was a mooney accident (fatal) late last year in a rented J I believe.  The pilot tried a couple of landings on a short-ish field and stalled it (preliminary report) on the second go attempt.  Having done a few more T-N-G's may have, and this is purely speculative, but may have better prepared him for the control forces, sight picture, and overall situational awareness that might have kept him and his passenger alive.  There may have been some extenuating circumstance in this accident that kept a better outcome from ever happening, but as I read it it made me go out a practice T-N-G's.

 

R

[Hank]

My takeaway from that accident was two or three landing attempts, all high and fast, and the field was a little short. 

You've got to know the correct speeds for your plane, and you've got to ba able to control the plane.

[carusoam]

Regarding the rental M20J accident in NJ...

It is hard to do TnGs on a short field when you don't have ordinary landings under control...

Spot Landing skills are important, because any error in landing is magnified during the extended following T/O...

The NJ example was a go around followed by another long landing...followed with a botched go around...

The lessons to be gained are

1) how long the T/O run is when it doesn't start at the runway threshold.

2) There is a time to no longer try to depart the runway.  You don't want to approach the end of the runway any where near rotation speed.  

Either way, the Thinking needs to be in place prior to the flying.

Best regards,

-a-

[Jim Peace]

1 hour ago, Marcopolo said:

  There was a mooney accident (fatal) late last year in a rented J I believe.  The pilot tried a couple of landings on a short-ish field and stalled it (preliminary report) on the second go attempt.  Having done a few more T-N-G's may have, and this is purely speculative, but may have better prepared him for the control forces, sight picture, and overall situational awareness that might have kept him and his passenger alive.  There may have been some extenuating circumstance in this accident that kept a better outcome from ever happening, but as I read it it made me go out a practice T-N-G's.

 

R

OMG

[Marcopolo]

OMG Jim?

 

  Is there an issue with why or how I choose to learn from other people's mistakes as to decrease the chance of making them my own.  I stated that it was speculative, but in any case, this pilot found himself in a position before, during, and shortly after a landing attempt that he could not get himself (and his passenger) out of.  Now I could chalk it up to a hundred different things and walk away with nothing gained...or lost, but I chose to try and mentally put myself in several of the possible situations and ask what would I have done differently, then when I realize that some of the answers to the question involve scenarios that I could practice and still maintain a decent margin of safety as I work on them, that's what I do.  It sure beats going out just to bore holes in the sky.  I love to fly, I also love to challenge myself (which is why I fly).  I have several instructors and high time flying buddies that I can call on at anytime to run these scenarios by, and not a single one has ever shy'd away from joining me on these flights to help make me (and sometimes them) a more informed pilot.

 

R

 

[PTK]

On 6/30/2017 at 10:24 AM, Marcopolo said:

  There was a mooney accident (fatal) late last year in a rented J I believe.  The pilot tried a couple of landings on a short-ish field and stalled it (preliminary report) on the second go attempt.  Having done a few more T-N-G's may have, and this is purely speculative, but may have better prepared him for the control forces, sight picture, and overall situational awareness that might have kept him and his passenger alive.  There may have been some extenuating circumstance in this accident that kept a better outcome from ever happening, but as I read it it made me go out a practice T-N-G's.

 

R

He attempted to land in a 2900 foot runway coming in about 20 knots too fast bouncing on the nose at about midlength of the rw. And that was his second attempt.

Would it not have been better for him to have developed structure and discipline by practicing and becoming proficient in full stop landings and aborted landings? Good chance he and his pax would be alive today if he had. 

Full stop landings would teach him proper airspeed control touching down on the midline and proper point down the rw predictably. It would also teach him proper application of brakes and proper use of pre and post landing checklist.

Practicing aborted landings would teach him to recognize a bad approach in time to go around. Not after bouncing twice and on the nose. 

Unfortunately this poor guy didn't know what he didn't know.

Maybe he never learned how to land properly because he had bad habits from TGL's like poor airspeed control, poor short field technique, and poor touch down point selection.   

Do you think that maybe that's what happened?

 

 

[Marcopolo]

Peter,

 

  I'm going to make an assumption right off the bat so don't get mad, you're a doctor of dentistry if I'm not mistaken so I'm going to assume, like a lot of doctors, you play golf ( I'm trying real hard to tie some stuff together here, huh).  Do you ever hit any "practice" shots out of the bunker when your warming up or just at the range?  I'm guessing you do, now I'm also guessing that when you hit a golf ball off the tee or from the fairway you are not planning on ending up in the bunker, but you've practiced for it and after a few curse words you walk into the bunker, retrace a few swing thoughts from those previous practice bunker shots you took earlier and swing away.

 

  I guess all I'm getting at is even though we all try to do things the right way or try to realize as soon as possible that things aren't right we sometimes end up in places we wish we weren't, I practice, as safely as possible, a few things just in case I end up further down that decision chain than I originally hoped I would.

 

R

[201er]

26 minutes ago, PTK said:

Would it not have been better for him to have practiced and be proficient in full stop landings and aborted landings? He and his pax would be alive today if he had.

Peter, what the guy really needed was touch n go practice so he would have known how to do the go after the bounce. He would have had more practice for that scenario if he did touch n goes before. Why don't you grow a pair and do some touch n goes too?

Edited June 30, 2017 by 201er

[steingar]

The fatal accident in question was caused by poor airmanship, and has little to do with the topic at hand.  One should know that one is high and/or fast on approach well before touching down.  And one should always be ready for the go-around.  Every landing should be a go-around until its success is assured.  Overruns, porpoises and stall/spins in the pattern are in no way unique to Mooneys.  

[carusoam]

Something for the low time in type crowd...

There is a rule of thumb that some pilots use when coming in fast.

They add a particular distance to the calculated landing distance to account for float...

At 10kias over landing speed, add 1,000' to the calculation. (From fuzzy memory)

At 20kias over landing speed, which is pretty easy for a low time pilot, add 2,000'

A normal Mooney landing can be done in about 1,000' 

How much distance did the poor guy have extra?  (Not enough)

So a low time pilot with very little transition training, bouncing down the runway, needed to hit the throttle immediately on the first bounce. Waiting any longer, the pilot is going to be going off the end of the runway at full speed.

Now your choice is trying to fly and climb, or pull the throttle and hit the brakes...

The lesson to be learned about the NJ short field accident is to be on speed before attempting a short field landing.  

If not on speed, go around.  No trying to make a landing, and execute a touch and go, (bounce and go) and hope things will work out. This is newbie thinking that has been proven to be terrible.  'Hope' and wishful thinking make lousy flight plans...

If you don't know the right speed... See Don Kaye.  He has all the guidance you need. (This is worth the simple payment)

It turns out low time pilots can make mistakes without knowing about it.  Higher time pilots can  make mistakes and be fully in the know what they did...

It is really easy to bounce a landing and be further than halfway down the runway and not know what your ASI is saying, and not know how many feet are left... or how many seconds have elapsed in the decision process...

Think this one out in advance. Anything is better than flying into the trees.

PP thoughts only. Not meaning to ruffle any feathers... definitely not a CFI either...

I think we have successfully morphed the safe TnG discussion into a TT and shortfield discussion... 

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

When I was taking my commercial check ride, we landed at a small field and on rollout the examiner calmly said "let's make this a touch and go" I looked back at him and started laughing. He smiled and checked another box.

[PTK]

22 hours ago, Marcopolo said:

Peter,

 

  I'm going to make an assumption right off the bat so don't get mad, you're a doctor of dentistry if I'm not mistaken so I'm going to assume, like a lot of doctors, you play golf ( I'm trying real hard to tie some stuff together here, huh).  Do you ever hit any "practice" shots out of the bunker when your warming up or just at the range?  I'm guessing you do, now I'm also guessing that when you hit a golf ball off the tee or from the fairway you are not planning on ending up in the bunker, but you've practiced for it and after a few curse words you walk into the bunker, retrace a few swing thoughts from those previous practice bunker shots you took earlier and swing away.

 

  I guess all I'm getting at is even though we all try to do things the right way or try to realize as soon as possible that things aren't right we sometimes end up in places we wish we weren't, I practice, as safely as possible, a few things just in case I end up further down that decision chain than I originally hoped I would.

 

R

I have to question the relevance.

When I hit a golf ball into the bunker, as I do often, I walk over and hit it again. The worst that can happen is my golf buddies get a good laugh. It's all in good fun.

When an airplane gets shoved into a "bunker" innocent and trusting pax die. No one laughs and it's not good fun. 

Got it?!

[Marcopolo]

Oh I got it, that's why I practice (solo or with an instructor, no "pax") a few things that some may feel unsafe or useless, to try my best to keep the plane out of the bunker.

[Yetti]

The problem here is thinking a touch and go is flown differently than landing normally. it's not

 

[Hank]

Just now, Yetti said:

The problem here is thinking a touch and go is flown differently than landing normally. it's not

 

Yes sir. All same same, wheels down, flaps up. Then change; if problem, no change, stop like always.  

[Tommy]

Personally I think T&G is an integral part of flight training and it's for good reasons. First being that it saves money and time for the student to master the art of landing. Second it is also an essential skill in bounce recovery or other landing emergencies. Yes it carries an elevated risk but I think it's easily mitigated if you have an instructor sitting next to you to render assistance. I had done plenty of T&Gs with my Mooney but only with an instructor. It gave the confidence in knowing that I can do a T&G when the situation demands it and the peace of mind knowing that an instructor is going to stop me from doing silly things like forgot the flaps or the cowl etc.