ATC privatization

[Dream to fly]

On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 9:32 PM, Yetti said:

I have kind of always wondered why they don't send you a speeding ticket for the calculated time elapsed between toll booths... Along with charging you the toll. 

They do!!  Several years ago I was visiting family on the east coast.  Drove the Jersey turn pike entered at exit 4 and exited at exit 13.  Toll collector told me to pull to the side.  Apparently they clock your speed by time.  I had far surpassed my time allotted and was getting a speeding ticket for that.

[khedrei]

21 hours ago, peevee said:

So much ignorance here I can't ignore it.

 

He can issue you a discretion descent. that is considered a service.

conflict alert in the enroute enviroment does not make noise. Approach it does but there are many beeps and buzzes going on often. What you heard was very very unlikely conflict alert. How exactly do you have the slightest idea what was going on from his side?

 

per the 7110.65 he does not have to call alphabet soup foreign callsigns phonetically.

section 2-4-20, maybe you should read it before criticizing someone.

I stand corrected regarding call signs.  As I mentioned, I don't have a lot of contact with US ATC.  He was the only one that I heard doing that and I have never heard of a controller in Canada do that.

But good job on responding to my supposed ignorance with some of your own.  You were not in the plane with me so you did not hear what the controller said.  I also said we requested a descent and he told me that "altitude was at my discretion" he did not give me a discretionary descent as you put it.  He simply said "altitude is at your discretion".  That would imply that if I wanted to climb I could as well.  I am not IFR rated, and I was on a training flight, and even with being quite overwhelmed at all that was going on it didn't make sense to me.  So I asked my CFI who has 35 years of instructional experience if what he said made sense and he said absolutely not and proceeded to tell the controller that we were on an IFR clearance and in IMC.  The controller sounded surprised, which didn't really give me warm tingly feelings to say the least.  He has a lot of experience with those particular controllers and said they are routinely unprofessional and not overly reliable.  He also said that not all ATC in the US is like that.

Regarding the collision warning, again, my instructor told me that that was what happened when airplanes lose separation.  He has had tours of ATC centres and has friends in ATC.  I took his word for it, and it all made sense given how close we were to the other aircraft when we broke out.  It happens occasionally but it simply means they weren't planning well enough.  I have an acquaintance in ATC and I think I asked him this but I will have to check again.  Apologies for stating hearsay as fact when I was not sure.

 

In response to the other question, we pay sales tax on the purchase price of the aircraft based on the province we live in (register it to).  Sometimes that can be avoided in private sales where invoices can be manipulated.  As far as I know, there is no annual registration fee....  I have not had my plane for a year yet.  We do pay an initial registration transfer fee, but it is not very much.  We do pay these ATC service fees whether we use ATC or not.  And we would also pay them even if our plane does not fly for a whole year.  If you have an aircraft registered in your name you will pay an annual ATC fee.  The dollar amount based on the gross weight of the plane.

[khedrei]

22 hours ago, gsengle said:

 

 

Alas, I don't think socialism is what gave us all the great airports and schools and businesses and technology


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Right...  Cause socialist countries don't have airports... 

Or schools, or businesses or technology for that matter....

 

Let me guess, you voted for Trump?

[gsengle]

Right...  Cause socialist countries don't have airports... 
Or schools, or businesses or technology for that matter....
 
Let me guess, you voted for Trump?

It was sarcasm. I think Trump is a danger to the republic. And I believe as we automate more and more jobs the old capitalist assumptions will need to be examined, as anti Communist as I am. And I find it ironic that some of the best places to live in the US, arguably, with good schools and standards of living, get derisively referred to as people's republics. All because we take care of business and that takes money.

Well those patriots should check the top marginal tax brackets under Eisenhower. It's our patriotic duty to contribute to the collective good through infrastructure and education...

Is that the answer you expected?


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[khedrei]

No, it wasn't what I expected.  Sorry, I missed the sarcasm.  It seemed like the comment made after about Obama was sarcastic and a stab at him.  It seems to me that a lot of people down there, even the ones that didn't like Obama wish he was still the president now....

My personal opinion, he was the best, most professional president that you guys have had in decades.  But I'm not really old enough to go back that far.

I wouldn't classify myself as a socialist, but there are some things that governments should be taking care of.  You can say what you'd like about socialism, it is a well known fact that the medical system, educational system and quality of life in the US is dwarfed by those in so called "socialist" European countries.  Whether US citizens will open the eyes and accept it and actually see the obvious truth that is right in front of them is a different story.

One thing is for sure...  there is no quicker way to start getting hated than by offering your political opinion...  I should have just stuck to asking questions about my airplane...

[peevee]

 

 

35 minutes ago, khedrei said:

 

Quote

You were not in the plane with me so you did not hear what the controller said. 

 

Quote

I am not IFR rated, and I was on a training flight,

sounds like neither do you!

Quote

 He has had tours of ATC centres and has friends in ATC.

I had a donut at tim hortons the other day, I guess I know everything about canada.

Maybe some remedial training on the difference between VFR flight following and being on an IFR clearance is in order.

[gsengle]

No, it wasn't what I expected.  Sorry, I missed the sarcasm.  It seemed like the comment made after about Obama was sarcastic and a stab at him.  It seems to me that a lot of people down there, even the ones that didn't like Obama wish he was still the president now....
My personal opinion, he was the best, most professional president that you guys have had in decades.  But I'm not really old enough to go back that far.
I wouldn't classify myself as a socialist, but there are some things that governments should be taking care of.  You can say what you'd like about socialism, it is a well known fact that the medical system, educational system and quality of life in the US is dwarfed by those in so called "socialist" European countries.  Whether US citizens will open the eyes and accept it and actually see the obvious truth that is right in front of them is a different story.
One thing is for sure...  there is no quicker way to start getting hated than by offering your political opinion...  I should have just stuck to asking questions about my airplane...

I should add for my Mooneyspace compatriots, noting the high level of civility of our conversations, I take it as good natured jabs from fellow states


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[khedrei]

Huh...  you want to try that again?

And please, feel free to make sense this time...

 

EDIT: Oops...  not you, this was directed at peevee

Edited June 6, 2017 by khedrei

[co2bruce]

2 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

Same here in South Florida, it's been raining steadily for the past three days with no end in sight.

I know, can you believe this rain. My pool is creeping into my living room.

[flyboy0681]

Guys, learn from my mistakes here, shut down the political banter before the administrator shuts down this thread.

[peevee]

17 minutes ago, khedrei said:

Huh...  you want to try that again?

And please, feel free to make sense this time...

 

EDIT: Oops...  not you, this was directed at peevee

it's pretty simple. You were probably not actually on an IFR clearance, you were probably VFR flight following. That's why altitude was your discretion and remedial training seems to be needed.

So your friend visited a facility. Big deal. He has no idea what he's talking about.

[co2bruce]

I can tell you here in South Florida the private towers, including the one at my home base, seem to be friendlier and more likely to assist.The federal towers are like dealing with the employees at the driver license office.........

Everyone always resists change,. All change is not bad. Everything the government runs is not necessarily good. Lets see what they come up with before we get our knickers in a wad. 

[khedrei]

You're on glue!  Go back and read my post again.  We were not on VFR flight following.  We were on an IFR clearance in IMC.  Can you even read?

I'm reasonably new, but I am not stupid.  I know what the difference is.  And my friend is a CFI with 35 years of experience and thousands of hours of flight time.  But if the only thing you can believe is that we were flying in IMC without a clearance and not that the US controller was not very proficient then by all means.

Clearly I could be accomplishing more by talking to a wall.

[flyboy0681]

Just now, co2bruce said:

I can tell you here in South Florida the private towers, including the one at my home base, seem to be friendlier and more likely to assist.The federal towers are like dealing with the employees at the driver license office.........

Everyone always resists change,. All change is not bad. Everything the government runs is not necessarily good. Lets see what they come up with before we get our knickers in a wad. 

Same at my tower, BCT. Very friendly and they stop by the hangar before and after their shift just to shoot the breeze.

[peevee]

2 minutes ago, khedrei said:

You're on glue!  Go back and read my post again.  We were not on VFR flight following.  We were on an IFR clearance in IMC.  Can you even read?

I'm reasonably new, but I am not stupid.  I know what the difference is.  And my friend is a CFI with 35 years of experience and thousands of hours of flight time.  But if the only thing you can believe is that we were flying in IMC without a clearance and not that the US controller was not very proficient then by all means.

Clearly I could be accomplishing more by talking to a wall.

can you even remember what you wrote?

Quote

and proceeded to tell the controller that we were on an IFR clearance and in IMC.  The controller sounded surprised,

 

Yeah, he sounded surprised because you were on VFR flight following. That is really the only plausible the reason you heard the words "altitude your discretion" but you don't seem to grasp the difference.

 

Since this guy clearly destroyed your entire week you know there's a really easy solution to sort it out. We have these things down here called telephones. Call the facility and ask what happened.

[khedrei]

Wow...

Every so often in life I meet people, and I wonder how they made it into adulthood.  This is one of those times.

I think I'm finished here.  I can feel myself getting dumber by talking to you.

[gsengle]

Guys, learn from my mistakes here, shut down the political banter before the administrator shuts down this thread.

Normally I wholeheartedly agree but this is a public policy and thus a political topic *sigh*

And despite that it's relatively civilized!


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[peevee]

Just now, gsengle said:

 

And despite that it's relatively civilized!


 

 

I haven't even called trump a treasonous cheeto yet.

[flyboy0681]

Just now, peevee said:

I haven't even called trump a treasonous cheeto yet.

I must admit, that was funny.

[Bob_Belville]

5 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Sorry, Bob, you lost me on your last sentence.  Please re-read my post- when was I "whacking the other guys manning oars"?  I expressed a concern that reasonable costs could climb if the privatized system lost money.

I agree that 99% of Americans do use ATC services- but I truly doubt that they see it that way, since it is all rolled into their airline ticket or FedEx price.  AOPA has mentioned this repeatedly over the years with regard to corporate aviation or personal business jets- they are seen as having deep pockets and not paying their fair share (although they do from the fuel tax.). And you and I, with our modest 50 year old airplanes, are seen the same way by the rest of America- rich guys with deep pockets who own personal airplanes.

When I, against my better instincts, entered this thread it was to suggest that it was not obvious to me that GA should oppose the latest effort speed up the modernization of ATP. Specifically I question the accepted dogma that the airlines are the enemy and will take advantage of whatever weight they can throw around to shift cost to GA and grab airspace. 

That may be so but I am skeptical. ISTM we're fellow users of the system and any improvements will benefit all users.   

[Guest Mike261]

This has been coming for a while. The European model, blah, blah...

I am so tired of the tentacles of government reaching into my private life and business. I am 56 years old and have no fight left in me. General aviation has been dying on the vine for some time now...user fees are coming, the fuel tax is going nowhere, don't kid yourself. This so called privatization is BS. ADSB shifts the tracking of aircraft to the owner, saving the government money and establishing a perfect billing system. Airline control of the "non profit" company will lead to loss of airspace, loss of IFR slots, and what ever other creative things they can conjure up. General Aviation is about to get prohibitively expensive except for the really rich. couple all this with the public perception of pilots as 1 percenter playboys getting their runways paid for by the public only to ruin their sunday cookouts with the noise pollution...

I for one will welcome our new robot overlords, and I will be putting my plane on the market when it gets back from avionics... before the this happens.

last nail for me. 

maybe an ultralight or something.

Mike

[Bob_Belville]

54 minutes ago, Mike261 said:

This has been coming for a while. The European model, blah, blah...

I am so tired of the tentacles of government reaching into my private life and business. I am 56 years old and have no fight left in me. General aviation has been dying on the vine for some time now...user fees are coming, the fuel tax is going nowhere, don't kid yourself. This so called privatization is BS. ADSB shifts the tracking of aircraft to the owner, saving the government money and establishing a perfect billing system. Airline control of the "non profit" company will lead to loss of airspace, loss of IFR slots, and what ever other creative things they can conjure up. General Aviation is about to get prohibitively expensive except for the really rich. couple all this with the public perception of pilots as 1 percenter playboys getting their runways paid for by the public only to ruin their sunday cookouts with the noise pollution...

I for one will welcome our new robot overlords, and I will be putting my plane on the market when it gets back from avionics... before the this happens.

last nail for me. 

maybe an ultralight or something.

Mike

Mike, it's sad to see someone from the great "Live Free or Die" state just give up in the face of a little fake news. You're not really a New Hampshire guy are you? I'm guessing you work down I93 in the People's Republic?

I'm a 74 year old Vermonter (from when Vermont was the only state FDR did not carry, not the Sanders, Leahy carpetbagger version) and I think I'm made of sterner stuff.

[Marauder]

Mike, it's sad to see someone from the great "Live Free or Die" state just give up in the face of a little fake news. You're not really a New Hampshire guy are you? I'm guessing you work down I93 in the People's Republic?
I'm a 74 year old Vermonter (from when Vermont was the only state FDR did not carry, not the Sanders, Leahy carpetbagger version) and I think I'm made of sterner stuff.

Are you starting to count backwards? I thought you told us you were 75! I have another technique. I have been 28 for years!


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[Browncbr1]

On 3/18/2017 at 11:04 AM, rogerl said:

 

[Browncbr1]

So a memo is signed.  I kind of doubt anything will actually happen in congress.  It seems both parties are hell bent on opposing Trump no matter what.   I'm not too worried anything will happen for a long long time.  Congress actually works better for me when they don't work at all.     All this talk about "nothing getting done" because congress is in gridlock seems to be good for GA.   I guess the upside to privatization would be that Shuster would get his wiener rubbed.