Flying No-Com VFR vs With ATC

[jlunseth]

My home base is towered and it is just too easy to pick up flight following before departure, if I am not IFR already.  If I am going out to practice maneuvers or just larking at low altitude I may not talk to ATC.  If I get an instruction from ATC while I am VFR I always just do it. 

[PTK]

1 hour ago, chrisk said:

Lets say you are approaching class C, on a 350 degree heading, around 1000 feet above the class C, and on flight following.  What do you do when you get something like:   Mooney 201ER, turn heading 270.   It's clear ATC wants to vector you around the class C boundary, even though you are going to be above it and out of their airspace.    Do you comply?  Do you fail to respond to the radio call?  Do you cancel flight following?  Do you claim un-able? or Other?

And then the next time you fly the same route, do you get flight following?  Or do you think to yourself, I'll just look at the ADSB-in traffic on my tablet?

It's not clear to me that they're trying to vector you around necessarily. There may be another reason. After all that's the value of ff. We are not a unknown generic 1200. To the controller we are a known quantity in that they know our intentions. It has been my experience that they usually will tell you their reasoning. I would comply.

 

[bonal]

18 hours ago, cliffy said:

I,m one of those "old guys" that routinely do long cross countries without turning on the radio. I my case I had to listen to high density ATC (LAX, ORD. JFK, etc) for 30+ years. I now enjoy the peace of going somewhere quietly when I can. Have gone from N AZ to HOU only using the radio for fuel stops.  It's called- "looking out the window" and not fixated inside the cockpit looking at gadgets.:-)  :-)

Look up "Children of Magenta" on youtube

I like this but it's not usually what I do. Most of my flights are so short that as soon as I'm clear of one area I need to be on the CTAF for the approach to the destination. A typical flight that is under an hour but puts me over a couple class D I will just monitor the freq and if there is mention of traffic that I know is me I will contact and advise I am monitoring. Most controllers appreciate the contact. Long flights away from home will always get FF as I like being in contact for advisory on traffic and in case something goes amiss I'm already in the system. 

[tony]

2 hours ago, chrisk said:

Lets say you are approaching class C, on a 350 degree heading, around 1000 feet above the class C, and on flight following.  What do you do when you get something like:   Mooney 201ER, turn heading 270.   It's clear ATC wants to vector you around the class C boundary, even though you are going to be above it and out of their airspace.    Do you comply?  Do you fail to respond to the radio call?  Do you cancel flight following?  Do you claim un-able? or Other?

And then the next time you fly the same route, do you get flight following?  Or do you think to yourself, I'll just look at the ADSB-in traffic on my tablet?

you cancel flight following, sqwak 1200, and stay out of the class C.

Edited December 22, 2016 by tony

[tony]

4 hours ago, 201er said:

Why wouldn't you want someone to advise you where the traffic is and keep an eye out for you in case anything goes wrong?

I guess it depends on where I am going.  If I have to transition an active MOA, I guess I might consider FF instead of talking to the controlling agency.   Mike, if it makes you feel more comfortable to get flight following, then you should make use of the service.  I prefer not to talk to anyone if I don't have to.   In either case it is still the pilots responsibility to see and avoid.  Not the controllers.  

Edited December 22, 2016 by tony

[N201MKTurbo]

4 hours ago, 201er said:

Why wouldn't you want someone to advise you where the traffic is and keep an eye out for you in case anything goes wrong?

Because they keep interrupting the audio books...

[Hank]

12 hours ago, tony said:

I'm with Cliffy.  I prefer to exercise my god given freedoms as an american whenever I can.  Why would I want someone to tell me where to go and what to do?

That's the whole beauty of Flight Following--nobody gives VFR traffic instructions or vectors, the most ATC can do is recommend headings or tell you to remain outside Class B, C or D airspace. If I'm a couple thousand feet above their airspace, they cannot instruct me to climb higher or divert; they can try, but I'm VFR and as long as I'm outside their airspace, I can tell them I don't want to and keep on my path. That's never happened to me, though. 

Overall, I find FF to be a positive experience, either invisible or some traffic point-outs, not a single instruction outside of C or D airspace, although ATL approach never misses a chance to tell me to "remain clear of Bravo airspace" regardless of altitude or direction of flight.

Flight Following is a far cry from operating IFR, where ATC always issues instructions that must be complied with or negotiated.

[201er]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

It's not clear to me that they're trying to vector you around necessarily. There may be another reason. After all that's the value of ff. We are not a unknown generic 1200. To the controller we are a known quantity in that they know our intentions. It has been my experience that they usually will tell you their reasoning. I would comply.

Yeah. And being a Mooney doesn't hurt. I remember hearing a lot more "remain clear of the Charlie" or "here's a ridiculous go around airspace vector to keep you out of my way" when flying a Cessna 152. Now, more likely I hear "Mooney cleared into Bravo on course."

[cliffy]

Why wouldn't I want to listen -----

      Because I have to listen to every conversation on ATC After 30+ yrs I'm tired of the noise

      What if I have trouble?  That's why I carry an InReach SAT radio, on and tracking on every flight. It gives a far better location than any            ATC can. 1 button push and help is on the way to a WAAS location transmitted to them AND they see the track with altitude going              down on their end. They start the Cavalry !  Like right now!  If I'm not going down ATC can't do anything for me that I can't do for               myself.

      I'm way out west, you have to look hard to even find any traffic, back east maybe I'd have a different thought process

       I go to Dallas often and use Approach Control BUT even when VFR you ALWAYS get routed way around the airspace as a little guy.          It's  just their thing.  KABQ does the same thing, miles out of the way for no reason than to keep you away. 

Now, ADSB In might be a God send even for me, we'll see what the next couple of years have to offer after what I saw at Oshkosh this last summer. 

[chrisk]

3 hours ago, PTK said:

It's not clear to me that they're trying to vector you around necessarily. There may be another reason. After all that's the value of ff. We are not a unknown generic 1200. To the controller we are a known quantity in that they know our intentions. It has been my experience that they usually will tell you their reasoning. I would comply.

 

After it happens 5 trips in a row, you know it is SOP.  They are trying to vector you and its because it makes their life easier.  I typically go along with it since ts a minor inconvenience that adds 5 or 6 minutes to my trip.  I do so because I'm convinced Austin Tx will be the next class B and I'd like to see that delayed as long as possible.  Austin has over 106,000 commercial operation a year.    Or roughly the same volume as St Louis or Kansas City, and more than Cleveland.

[Hank]

When I'm told to remain clear of ATL's Bravo, I do, generally paralleling the vertical East or West sides a couple miles away, or cutting around the Southern arc and turning north right at the SE corner. Two miles out is plenty of extra space, and adds ~20 minutes; the direct line goes straight over the center of ATL, but they don't even let me use the T-routes when I ask for them. So first come, first served, I go through their gates at 9500, eyes outside. They do me no favors, I do them no favors back.

[astravierso]

I have made a few long XC's without the "aid" of FF. Kingman AZ to Brigham City UT, Brigham to Apple Valley CA and back. I fly around and under Salt Lake City Bravo and over the top of Las Vegas Bravo keeping to myself while still listening. This is not to say I am radio silent. I listen to all of the Center enroute and CTAF's Frequencies and announce my presence (location, direction and intent) over the CTAF's as I go by.

Using this tactic and keeping my eyes looking outside has allowed me to do my thing without incident

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, astravierso said:

I have made a few long XC's without the "aid" of FF. Kingman AZ to Brigham City UT, Brigham to Apple Valley CA and back. I fly around and under Salt Lake City Bravo and over the top of Las Vegas Bravo keeping to myself while still listening. This is not to say I am radio silent. I listen to all of the Center enroute and CTAF's Frequencies and announce my presence (location, direction and intent) over the CTAF's as I go by.

Using this tactic and keeping my eyes looking outside has allowed me to do my thing without incident

If you are going to listen to them, you might as well check in.

I just don't want to listen.

[astravierso]

1 minute ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If you are going to listen to them, you might as well check in.

I just don't want to listen.

If you don't want to listen, that's fair enough. I prefer to listen to improve my SA as I do my own thing. I used to check in until I had a few unpleasant conversations as a result of being vectored (significantly) off course even though I was outside (on top) of their airspace where they could not/ would not tell me the hazard I was being vectored around. There is an uncomfortable silence when you cancel FF after ATC starts to play "Simon says" because they "can"

Before some of you try to flame me for my last sentence, if you fly long enough you will have a bad interaction with ATC. Sometimes it's their fault, sometimes it's your fault. This is just how I choose reduce the probability of it happening to me while staying safe and legal.

Cheers

[201er]

1 minute ago, astravierso said:

If you don't want to listen, that's fair enough. I prefer to listen to improve my SA as I do my own thing. I used to check in until I had a few unpleasant conversations as a result of being vectored (significantly) off course even though I was outside (on top) of their airspace where they could not/ would not tell me the hazard I was being vectored around. There is an uncomfortable silence when you cancel FF after ATC starts to play "Simon says" because they "can"

Before some of you try to flame me for my last sentence, if you fly long enough you will have a bad interaction with ATC. Sometimes it's their fault, sometimes it's your fault. This is just how I choose reduce the probability of it happening to me while staying safe and legal.

Cheers

If you fly far enough, many times it will be inevitable that you are IFR anyhow.

[astravierso]

1 minute ago, 201er said:

If you fly far enough, many times it will be inevitable that you are IFR anyhow.

I get that if I were in the system and I will get plenty of opportunities for it this coming year as I start my instrument rating, but we are talking about under VFR

[M016576]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

If you fly far enough, many times it will be inevitable that you are IFR anyhow.

If you fly far enough, you won't have to talk to anyone, anymore.... then again, you also won't be able to see land, either.

no need to be IFR to fly a long ways, so long as the weather is ok.  I base my decision to file IFR on 2 things.  

1) weather

2) overall volume of traffic/density of airspace (socal, mode c veils, etc). 

Overall distance isn't necessarily a driving factor for me, but could lead me to one of the two things above.

In general, it's monitarily cheaper for me to fly VFR... so I tend to do that as much as practical.  I guess that's part of the reason I'm a member of the CB's.  It helps that I have to fly IFR at work 3-4 times at week... so I don't feel compelled to "flex my instrument ticket" in the mooney.

[Chris from PA]

I made numerous trips between Philly and Augusta, GA this past year and I often flew without talking to anybody once I was out of controlled airspace. However, I always monitor 121.5 in case anybody needs to chat with me.

[Marauder]

47 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I always monitor both Approach and 121.5 when en route VFR and feel that I get most of what they have to offer by just listening, especially now that an increasing percentage of the traffic ATC can call out I have already been monitoring on my iPad.  I don't fly in NYC either, though.

Jim

I actually got to rely a telephone number to a guy over 121.5 once. Bad boy.

[bradp]

I fly in the NE corridor. Talking to ATC, in my opinion, is a very good idea.

My last flight from CT to PIT was Thursday. I had the pleasure of watching a bunch of traffic conflicts (one set both talking to ATC, another set of converging targets near Andover aero flex - not talking on CTAF or to ATC come within 200ft of each other. I was able to see them on the iPad (I have in but No out with the stratus). In NY approach airspace there are so many pings for towers that you get a pretty good but still incomplete picture of traffic around you without the "out" or an L3 style active traffic solution.

One of the Andover AC made an abrupt climb towards my cruising altitude. Another Cessna climbed through my altitude (must have been about 300 fpm) and 1.5 nm about 5 min later. I texted my wife when I got home that I felt like I went through a gauntlet. Oh I forgot a sabrejet (those look cool) that climbed just under my right wing departing off of HPN. Literally put my head on a swivel for the first 40 min of my trip.

2 weeks ago went nose to nose (bad instruction by ATC for a guy doing a practice approach) over Charlottesville, which is controlled but not what I'd consider busy airspace. Climb immediately is never something I want to hear.

I personally cannot see anything past 2-3SM unless it's 1) really big 2) above me or 3) there are super clear conditions.

There's no big sky in the NE corridor. I'll take what I can get.

(I'm about this close to the Mrs approving the WAAS/ADS-B for an improved traffic solution.)


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[flight2000]

As many have already said, it all depends on location and your area.  Out here in the wild, wild west I rarely see any traffic and sometimes can go for an hour or more without seeing a house or gasp...a car...once I'm out of Reno.   

If I'm heading to the NoCal or SoCal area, that's a different story.  I'll normally pick up radar advisories out of Reno and stay with ATC until I get to my destination on the coast or in the San Fernando Valley.   If I'm heading east, north, or south of Reno, I lose radar coverage with OAK Center because I'm below the bigger rocks in those areas and radio communication usually gets dropped as well, but it's not really a big deal with the amount of traffic (or lack there of...) out here. 

So for me, it all depends on where I'm at, where I'm heading, and if I really need that extra set of eyes watching me.  Even then, you have to keep the Mark IV eyeballs outside as ATC services are still provided by a human sitting at a computer and prone to make mistakes as we have seen in the past....

Cheers,

Brian

[Marauder]

The Northeast is a zoo. Especially on a nice summer evening with light winds. Also on any weekend with decent VFR, the corridor between Philly and Washington headed to the shore points is a site to behold. And you're not going to get VFR flight following with Philly. You might lucky and have Dover pick you up. I've learned over the years, fly high.


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[flight2000]

I get to move back to the zoo in July.  Heading to Richmond, VA (Fort Lee) for my next job so will get to be immersed in the craziness again.  I'll probably end up filing IFR a lot more and still fly high (> 9K). 

I forgot to mention in my last post that when I brought the plane back to Reno from Saint Louis on an IFR flight plan, I had to call Salt Lake Center twice to make sure they still had me while coming across Wyoming on V6 between Cheyenne and Fort Bridger.  I went a solid 30 minutes with nothing.  No airliners, no other traffic...nothing but silence.  Kind of freaky....but radio traffic did pick up as I got closer to SLC though.  Never hear anything like that in the midwest or east.

Cheers,

Brian

[201er]

49 minutes ago, Marauder said:

The Northeast is a zoo. Especially on a nice summer evening with light winds. Also on any weekend with decent VFR, the corridor between Philly and Washington headed to the shore points is a site to behold. And you're not going to get VFR flight following with Philly. You might lucky and have Dover pick you up. I've learned over the years, fly high.


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I don't know why you have such a bad rap with Philly. I've heard bad things before too. But I rarely have any trouble getting advisories or bravo clearance as needed. Then again maybe it's because I fly a Mooney four letters up from yours 

[Marauder]

I don't know why you have such a bad rap with Philly. I've heard bad things before too. But I rarely have any trouble getting advisories or bravo clearance as needed. Then again maybe it's because I fly a Mooney four letters up from yours 

Or it could be your J is so much slower than my F they need to make sure you don't get run over.

I think Philly shares the workload with McQuire on the east side which probably helps. On the west side, they have all the arrivals coming in from the western U.S. coupled with a tight corridor between them and the Washington SFRA which leads to the shore. Whatever it is, it is congested.


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