Gulf Coast Avionics PIREP

[Kristoffer]

So I have been holding off on this PIREP in order to give Gulf Coast a fair and accurate review.

When I made the decision to upgrade my panel, I started reaching out to avionics shops within the state of Florida. Of the shops I reached out to, many never got back to me, some were way over priced and others just did not give me a good impression. Gulf Coast however, always got back to me and was quick to send me written quotes.

I had planned on attending Sun n Fun, so I decided I would wait for the event for any announcements and potential show specials Avidyne may have. That turned out to be a wise move as Avidyne made an announcement which encouraged me to make a small change to my planned panel.

So while at the show, I went through with the purchase and scheduled the installation of my new equipment. Avidyne IFD440, APX340 Transponder & ADS-B StyTrax100.

Two days after the plane arrived I received an email stating that there was some old wire left behind the panel from a previously installed RNAV and they now ned an additional 40 hours @ $90! Thats $3600! When I questioned this the manager said they only quoted me for 70 hours and they did not anticipate the additional labor. So now my labor bill will be increasing by over 50%. I should point out however, that the original quotes they send me broke down the labor and included 110 hours of labor, so where did thought hours go? I can say while I was at Sun n Fun they did lower the quote if I would commit while I was there. they didn't lower it by 40 hours and turned out to be irrelevant with the additional charges. Just to be clear, I understand they may have run into additional work that they were not anticipating. As a business owner, I feel that when making a quote, first they should give a disclaimer that labor maybe higher. Second, and really the bigger issue for me is that 40 additional hours seem excessive.

Ultimately, I just want a clean instal and a fully functioning panel. They install was suppose to take less then 2 weeks and I planned my business trips around that, including a return flight into Tampa so I could pick up my airplane but unfortunately, they needed an additional week. Something we have all learned to expect in aviation. During the installation they did find the shock mounts on my HSI needed to be replaced so they went ahead and changed those out as well.

So three weeks after I dropped my Baron off I picked her up with a new GPS and Transponder with ADS-B in and out.   

On my flight home I noticed once in the air I lost my ADS-B in signal to my IFD. I found it a bit odd as I never lost it on my Foreflight/Stratus 2S. With an external antenna I would expect it to have even better reception. But I was dropping the airplane off for a new windshield so I will have to look into it later. After the new windshield I had another trip and still no ADS-B in. On my return flight home I also dissevered (the hard way) that the light in my HSI wasn't working. The same one Gulf Coast took out and re-installed with new shock mounts. 

So I finally make it back to the shop to address among other things the ADS-B in and the HSI light. After spending half a day at the shop I was informed that the light was a grounding cable and the ADS-B in was working fine. They could not duplicate. I was happy to hear about the light but not the ADS-B. I expressed my concerns as even my flight in to the airport did not receive ADS-B. Their response was that they didn't know what to tell me and that it was working fine. I work with RF so I questioned if it could be an antenna issue as there is an ADS-B antenna on the field. I was informed that the broadcast was not close enough for them to receive the signal when in the hanger and I should be fine. So as I depart LAL, as soon as I am airborne I once again loose my ADS-B in signal. When I land at my home airport I informed the shop that it is still not working and there response was that it must be a bad unit and we will need to swap it out.

In the mean time I reach out to Avidyne. Their tech support spent nearly 2 hours on the phone with me discussing the issue including walking me through the settings to confirm everything was setup correctly. I must say Avidyne was great, I never felt rushed or that I was a bother in any way. Fortunately and unfortunately everything was set up correctly. I brought up my antenna theory to him and he agreed that was a possibility.

In the mean time, I received a bill from Gulf Coast to the HSI light repair!   I pointed out that the light was in working order until they removed it & if there was a shredded cable as they are now claiming then it should have been spotted at the time it was out. I felt that they simply didn't reconnect the grounding cable correctly and was now trying to bill me for their mistake. After some back and for I received this reply from the Manager "Disregard the invoice. I have zeroed it out and sent the technician home for not complying with the post installation checkout to verify lighting." While I was happy about disregarding the invoice, I was speechless at his sarcasm. I am still a customer.

Mean while, my ADS-B in was still not working. So I finally got under my airplane, removed the access panel next to my ADS-B antenna and I'm sure you can guess what I found next!!! Yep, The ADS-B antenna was NOT connected. The BNC cable was laying right next to it. Just Like I said, if your next to a transmitter and you can receive a signal but loss it as soon as you move away, its probably an antenna issue. I would call that troubleshooting 101. Its the same reason the annoying tech support guys for your home electronics ask questions like "is it plugged in?" So needless to say after informing the manager as to what I discovered, I did not receive a single reply.

So that should be where this PIREP ends..... But its not. 

As I have become very familiar and comfortable with my new GPS I started to realize that I was not hearing my Aural callouts. Terrain, Top of decent, 500' etc. So I once again reached out to Gulf Coast to inquire about this and I received this response from the manager "As far as the audio for aural warnings, I just went through the STC installation manual wiring diagrams page by page and there is no audio interface shown for that. It may be a feature they advertise, but not authorized under the STC." 

I immediately reached out to Avidyne who in turn informed him that statement was untrue. I then asked the manager what we need to do to to get the Aurals to my audio panel. His response was that it would be labor and materials to remove the IFD and Audio panel and wire the panel. I told him I was ok with paying for the labor and material to wire it, however, I do not feel the labor should include removal and installation of the units as it should have been done at the time of instal. To which his response was "According to the wiring diagrams, that is a TAWS audio output, only required for TAWS. It is impossible for us to wire up all options (no customer will pay for that) or even remember every option available, some of which are software dependent and aren’t even available, so I don’t see it as something we should have done at the time unless requested by the customer."


To which I wrote "ALL of the callouts require the same two wires (see below). We are not talking about every callout requiring additional wires. So the additional time would have been minimal.

Just to be clear, as of yesterday, you didn’t think there was an option for the callouts. I understand it may be “optional” in the sense of not being require for IFR or STC, however, since they are standard with the unit & can be activated and deactivated within the unit by the pilot, why wouldn't a customer want it attached? After all, we are only talking about 2 audio wires. 

Further, as an authorized dealer/installer, shouldn’t you be aware of all of the features of these units and ask if the owner would like them wired? I came to you because I assumed you were an expert. To be honest, you wired the transponder to the audio panel with out asking me. That was an Optional feature and if I had to choose between the two I would have chosen the callouts all day long. 

As a customer, I have no idea whats considered optional or requires separate wiring. I came to Gulf Coast because I believed as a large company and authorized dealer, you would know these units and know what to ask me. If you brought your car to have a new stereo installed you would expect all of the speakers in the car to be connected, not just the two front speakers. Even though that is all you need to listen to your stereo. 

So if this is your stance and you expect me to pay for the removal and installation of the unit when it should/could have been done during the initial installation, then I will have a local shop fix it. Much like the ADS-B antenna which was never connected."

That is his stance and he refuses to budge. Needless to say if I am going to be paying full labor to fix this I will not be paying the same shop that failed to do it in the first place. Not to mention the additional $200 in fuel just to bring it to them.

When I choose a shop or recommend a shop I do so based on a few factors. Can I trust them? Are the knowledgeable? What is the quality of their work? & lastly what are there people skills? Needless to say I believe they failed on all accounts. So I will not be using them for addition upgrades or recommending them to friends.

 

[Guitarmaster]

Wow.... Thanks for sharing! I understand mistakes happen, but I expect them to be fixed free of charge.
That's a crazy about of money to be treated like that.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

See if this is of any help...

1) your a pilot of Brand B.

2) you have held a membership here for a while.

3) you didn't share the decision process as you went through it.  No Pirep on the great decision.

4) often people ask for references when spending that kind of dough to at least get comfortable with the shop.

5) Bashing a shop isn't usually going to be very helpful.

6) helpful reviews come in the form of multiple positive pieces of feed back.

7) A bad review by a single person with no post history often looks bad on the poster.

8) I understand that you may be upset.

9) Wondering why you would want to take this approach?

10) I assume you posted on BT as well.  This would remove some of the quirkiness of posting a bad review as your first post here.

11) maybe the offending company really is that bad.  Wait for the cavalry of affected plane owners to arrive.  You're probably not their first bad install job.

12) Want us to reach out to the shop?  There are often times, two sides to a customer complaint situations.  We have a really good MS contact from Avidyne, need some help with that?

Aviation is a small world.  What are you trying to accomplish?  Just venting?

Best regards,

-a-

[Kristoffer]

Carusoam,

 

1. I am an owner of "Brand B" I am also a former owner of "Brand M"
2. I have been a member here a while. As I mentioned above, I use to own a Mooney for several years but sold in when I was getting divorced.
3. I didn't share the process. However, I did look for PIREPs on message boards to get an idea on other owner's experience with avionics shops. It was the lack of negative reviews that led me to that shop.
4. See Above
5. I was not "bashing" as much as I was giving my experience. Hence why I also included actual quotes from email conversations.
6. Positive reviews are helpful, however lack of negative reviews gives the impression that no one has anything negative to say about a company or perhaps no one has used the yet. So I believe both are useful.
7. I completely understand. I only posted here because of how much my PIREP was appreciated on the BT site. While I currently own "Brand B", I am still very loyal to Mooney as it is the only single engine I would ever own.
8. I am more disappointed then upset. When I find a great company I am their biggest advocate and best advertisement. Ask me about a good mechanic or paint shop..
9. We are a tight community that looks out for one another. If we don't give feedback on our experiences then we really aren't looking out for anyone but ourselves. 
10. I did post on BT, (copy & Paste) and post regularly, and that community was so grateful of PIREP that it encouraged me to post it here.
11. Based on the responses I received on BT, I was not a isolated incident.

Aviation is a small world. Even more reason to treat your customers properly.

 

I believe a gave a honest review and I stand behind it and have the documentation to prove every word.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Kristoffer

[mccdeuce]

Kristoffer,

Have you mentioned this to Avidyne?  I worked with GCA a long time ago when I was a newly minted Grumman owner.  They were ok. Nothing great nothing bad. Large corporation. 

The reason I ask though - they are an authorized dealer and maintainer of Avidynes equipment but based on your account don't actually know the gear.  Not good for them. Maybe they should re teach GCA or stop using them. 

[PTK]

6 hours ago, Kristoffer said:

...Two days after the plane arrived I received an email stating that there was some old wire left behind the panel from a previously installed RNAV and they now ned an additional 40 hours @ $90! Thats $3600! When I questioned this the manager said they only quoted me for 70 hours and they did not anticipate the additional labor...

 

Based on your account of your experience, it appears that you've fallen victim to the old bait and switch tactic! The oldest trick in the book! 

I would have instructed them to stop immediately right then and there and go pickup your airplane. Take it to a shop who values you as the customer rather than try to deceive you and rip you off. You would have saved the aggravation. 

 

[Kristoffer]

5 hours ago, mccdeuce said:

Kristoffer,

Have you mentioned this to Avidyne?  I worked with GCA a long time ago when I was a newly minted Grumman owner.  They were ok. Nothing great nothing bad. Large corporation. 

The reason I ask though - they are an authorized dealer and maintainer of Avidynes equipment but based on your account don't actually know the gear.  Not good for them. Maybe they should re teach GCA or stop using them. 

I have been in contact with Avidyne. First when I had an issue with the not receiving the ADS-B in. Then I forwarded GCs email to Avidyne when the shop said the IFD call outs were not STCd. They reached out to GC immediately and corrected them and forwarded them the information needed to show GC that was an incorrect statement. Again when GC calmed that every option would be additional wiring. Avidyne sent the page showing is only one connection (2 wires). I also reached out to another contact I have at Avidyne. Avidyne has been great and was going to look into the problem to see if they need additional training etc.. They agreed that it impacts them negatively.

[Kristoffer]

3 hours ago, PTK said:

Based on your account of your experience, it appears that you've fallen victim to the old bait and switch tactic! The oldest trick in the book! 

I would have instructed them to stop immediately right then and there and go pickup your airplane. Take it to a shop who values you as the customer rather than try to deceive you and rip you off. You would have saved the aggravation. 

 

At that point the panel was apart and they wires were everywhere. I think trying to stop and get my plane back would cause caused even greater aggravation unless I was willing to pay for several days labor with nothing to show for it.

[glafaille]

My wife and I are "Foodies".  When visiting a new restaurant we never order the most complex item on the menu the first visit.  Instead we order something very simple to see if they can make it properly.  It takes many visits before we trust them with a complex dinner with friends.

I've been in aviation for 40 years and manage vendors much the same way.  I  try a new vendor out on simple tasks to gauge his integrity, the quality of his work, and how he handles problems as they arise.

Handing a new vendor a complex task right out of the box greatly increases the odds of unhappiness.  You must build a relationship before entrusting your treasure to others.

If forced to hand over a complex task to a new vendor I watch him every step of the way in person or hire others to do so.  I never drop off the airplane and keys and walk away.

[XXX]

FWIW, My "F" is currently at CE Avionics @KSFB. I was the high bidder on the Lynx NGT 9000 at Mooney Summit and it is getting installed. I am also having my KLN 89B changed out to a KLN 94, my #2 radio moved to the right panel, my ADF and related accessories removed, vertical card compass and USB charging port installed and a lazy AI repaired.

My experience so far has been a good one. Robert Powell is the salesman, a retired pilot and most professional. Their hourly rate is $105 but I have learned it is sometimes less expensive to pay for experience than to pay for someone to learn. I received a detailed estimate and will report back after the work is completed. 

 

 

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, glafaille said:

My wife and I are "Foodies".  When visiting a new restaurant we never order the most complex item on the menu the first visit.  Instead we order something very simple to see if they can make it properly.  It takes many visits before we trust them with a complex dinner with friends.

I've been in aviation for 40 years and manage vendors much the same way.  I  try a new vendor out on simple tasks to see the quality of his work and how he handles problems as they arise.

Handing a new vendor a complex task right out of the box greatly increases the odds of unhappiness.  You must build a relationship before entrusting your treasure to others.

Good advice.

I wrote a check for $54k to Twin Lakes Avionics for my new panel 4 years ago. The shop had previously done several small jobs including transponder/altimeter/static system certification, and trouble shooting old equipment - KNS80, Stormscope rebuild. On one visit they spent 2 hours taking down the ceiling panel to replace a coax connector. No charge. 

When they did the big job it was done on schedule, per quote, and I have had zero squawks. 

[Andy95W]

5 hours ago, glafaille said:

My wife and I are "Foodies".  When visiting a new restaurant we never order the most complex item on the menu the first visit.  Instead we order something very simple to see if they can make it properly.  It takes many visits before we trust them with a complex dinner with friends.

I've been in aviation for 40 years and manage vendors much the same way.  I  try a new vendor out on simple tasks to gauge his integrity, the quality of his work, and how he handles problems as they arise.

Handing a new vendor a complex task right out of the box greatly increases the odds of unhappiness.  You must build a relationship before entrusting your treasure to others.

If forced to hand over a complex task to a new vendor I watch him every step of the way in person or hire others to do so.  I never drop off the airplane and keys and walk away.

In this day and age, a WAAS GPS, transponder, and ADS-B install is NOT a complex task, and Gulf Coast is not your run-of-the-mill restaurant.

[glafaille]

Apparently it was a complex task for that particular installer, as evidenced by all the problems encountered by the OP.

My bet is you are correct in that Gulf Coast is not a "run of the mill" restaurant. 

[Kristoffer]

UPDATE:

The President of GCA has reached out to me and apologized for my experience.  He has offered to wire the audio free of charge and reimburse me for my fuel expense in an effort to make things right.

Carusoam, still questioning the validity of my post and my approach? 

My airplane will be down for it's annual before I can address this. Stay Tuned... 

[carusoam]

I am looking forward to a really positive resolution!

Panel upgrades have become more complex and costly than some entire airplane purchases.

We have disccused the wallet defending plane purchase steps including purchase agreements and PPIs several times.  I am thinking a similar process with follow-up discussions would be great.

an defensive Avionics Suite Purchase and Integration list...?

I watched a bit of your video after midnight last night.   You have some interesting skills.

Hope you can hang around a while.  You have gained a lot of experience with this project.

Best regards,

-a-

[rbridges]

11 minutes ago, Kristoffer said:

UPDATE:

The President of GCA has reached out to me and apologized for my experience.  He has offered to wire the audio free of charge and reimburse me for my fuel expense in an effort to make things right.

Carusoam, still questioning the validity of my post and my approach? 

My airplane will be down for it's annual before I can address this. Stay Tuned... 

that is the way it should be.  own up, admit your mistake and make it right for the customer.  In no part of this did you ask for anything beyond what is fair.  Glad they're trying to make it right.

[Kristoffer]

Just now, carusoam said:

I am looking forward to a really positive resolution!

Panel upgrades have become more complex and costly than some entire airplane purchases.

We have disccused the plane purchase steps including purchase agreements and PPIs several times.  I am thinking a similar process with follow-up discussions would be great.

I watched a bit of your video after midnight last night.   You have some interesting skills.

Hope you can hang around a while.

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks, so am I! A positive resolution is all have ever asked for.

Thanks for watching my video. Between work, editing videos for my YouTube channel and BT, I'm running out of time during the day. LOL But I loved the Mooney community when I owned my Mooney so I will try to spend more time here. As long as I don't end up missing my plane to much! 

 

[carusoam]

Somebody just started another thread regarding a surprise quote from the West Coast arm of GCA... Pacific Coast Avionics...

aparently, a slide in transponder exchange can turn into a full three day Integration.... they are just getting into what the reality should be.  Fortunately for them, it is before any money has been exchanged.

The slide in option doesn't seem to meet the requirements of people looking to meet the 2020 mandate. To meet the 2020 mandate may require a whole new tray and install not just add a couple of wires.

Not a very useful option for somebody that has a non-2020 transponder already.

Best regards,

-a-

[Kristoffer]

1 minute ago, Hyett6420 said:

Ok so how did you get that emoji with the tongue hanging out in there.  I can only get smiles or sulks.

Maybe its because I'm cooler then you or maybe its because I'm on a Mac  Its probably the Mac LOL

 

its just a : p without the space between.

[Oldguy]

On 10/27/2016 at 2:36 PM, carusoam said:

Somebody just started another thread regarding a surprise quote from the West Coast arm of GCA... Pacific Coast Avionics...

aparently, a slide in transponder exchange can turn into a full three day Integration.... they are just getting into what the reality should be.  Fortunately for them, it is before any money has been exchanged.

The slide in option doesn't seem to meet the requirements of people looking to meet the 2020 mandate. To meet the 2020 mandate may require a whole new tray and install not just add a couple of wires.

Not a very useful option for somebody that has a non-2020 transponder already.

Best regards,

-a-

I guess I am the exception to the rule, then. Sliding in the KT74 in place of my KT76A, adding a wire from my 430W to the KT74 and everything is done. Was able to get my 2020 validation on the first attempt.

It is true I did not end up with the audio function available on the KT74, but turning it around in a bit less than a day was a trade-off I was willing to make.

[Brandontwalker]

I guess I am the exception to the rule, then. Sliding in the KT74 in place of my KT76A, adding a wire from my 430W to the KT74 and everything is done. Was able to get my 2020 validation on the first attempt.
It is true I did not end up with the audio function available on the KT74, but turning it around in a bit less than a day was a trade-off I was willing to make.

Who did yours? I got a quote from a local shop today for 40-50 hours to install a KT74. I held my wallet tightly, chuckled and told him I'd call someone for a second opinion. My next call was to King tech support who said they cannot think of any contingency which would justify that much time for a transponder install. They recommended that I contact another dealer (obviously).


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[M016576]

On 10/27/2016 at 0:36 PM, carusoam said:

Somebody just started another thread regarding a surprise quote from the West Coast arm of GCA... Pacific Coast Avionics...

aparently, a slide in transponder exchange can turn into a full three day Integration.... they are just getting into what the reality should be.  Fortunately for them, it is before any money has been exchanged.

The slide in option doesn't seem to meet the requirements of people looking to meet the 2020 mandate. To meet the 2020 mandate may require a whole new tray and install not just add a couple of wires.

Not a very useful option for somebody that has a non-2020 transponder already.

Best regards,

-a-

I started the other thread- and I ask anyone interested to please read and offer  your opinions.

my primary issue isn't that the transponder isn't exactly a plug and play design.  My issue is that some shops, like pacific coast, are perfectly ok with quoting 4 times the required labor (and I'm sure they will charge it, too), to accomplish a task.  It's insulting, in my opinion.  I can only assume these shops get away with this because some of the owners they are dealing with just don't care: they have money to burn... or it's because all their competition is gone due to over-regulation or insurance requirements.

ironic, because building a wire bundle in accordance with the install manual is not a complicated, or time consuming task... on a avidyne axp340 transponder, a KT-74 transponder or a trig TT31 transponder; if I re-built the entire 2 connector wire harness, I'd only be running 19 total wires!  A 22 hour quote to rivet a new tray and build 2 connectors with only 19 wires?  And I'm willing to bet that if I were to ask them to do the work, they would only build the 4 wire second connector, and just leave the original KT-76A connector intact.

Please.... I'll take my business somewhere honest.  5 hours seems reasonable for an install like one of these transponders.  But 22 hours? That's more like an insult.  As was the comment at the bottom of their e-mailed response: "and because, well, it's a mooney."

[bradp]

I had a single altitude encoding wire go intermittent after a JPI install.  The GNS told me which one.  Great - no real troubleshooting and I can surmise that it simply got knocked out or damaged during the recent work.  I called the closest local radio shop and they quoted me 1-2 hrs for the quick fix - no big deal.  I asked if they guaranteed their quotes.   And then the kicker, "we reserve the right to reorganize any and all panel wiring as we see fit. "  I asked what that meant and was told what you'd think.  Plus something about it being a Mooney.   I said I thank you but no thank you.  Clearly they either didn't want a small job or some shops are simply expecting a blank check for any and all work.  What that shop did was lose any future business with me for the inevitable panel upgrades...

Asking questions like you're a detective- within reason - can be a useful tool for self preservation. 

[Oldguy]

19 hours ago, Brandontwalker said:

Who did yours? I got a quote from a local shop today for 40-50 hours to install a KT74. I held my wallet tightly, chuckled and told him I'd call someone for a second opinion. My next call was to King tech support who said they cannot think of any contingency which would justify that much time for a transponder install. They recommended that I contact another dealer (obviously).


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Brandon, I went over to Columbus, GA to Stark Avionics. I have used them for years with mostly good results and any issues have been resolved to my satisfaction (or I would not still be using them). I think I did mine about this time last year. PM me if you want to talk details.

[XXX]

Just picked up 88V from CE Avionics at KSFB. I'm very pleased with my Lynx install and the other work they performed. I was given an estimate before the work was started and they stuck to it. Some minor issues popped up like finding my speaker cone was deteriorated. I was notified and asked if I wanted it replaced and quoted a price. Robert Powell, the sales rep, is very knowledgeable in all things aviation and kept me posted on the progress with regular emails and photos. He is actually a CFII, ATP and A&P. Robert likes airplanes and enjoys his job. He spent quite a bit of time with me discussing my immediate as well as long term plans for my panel. The shop is spotless, my windscreen was protected with an adhesive film while they worked on the panel, my wing walk was covered in protective cloth. It is always a pleasure doing business with professionals and the folks at CE Avionics are the at the top of their profession.