Flying to close, what would you have done, if anything.

[Danb]

I was flying into Lancaster yesterday and received a traffic alert on adsb.A big yellow plane +100 directly above me, well I thought it was a false alert of my own position but after 30 seconds or so it didn't go away I tried looking up saw nothing so I slowed down, then a Baron appeared just above me also going into Lancaster, I called and gave my position and intentions was asked to sqwack was told a plane appears above and just past me he is not in contact with him. I told the controller he just appeared and passed overhead was told keep visual separation proceed right downwind runway 13, then the Baron called in given left downwind 13. 

I was amazed at the poor airmanship and danger imposed on me, I was going to confront the guy but didn't. My buddies at KILG said I should have done something like confronting him or talk to tower or something ? 

Its been bothering me about how close I came to a midair plus I did nothing about it. He was on top of me most likely less than 100 feet for 3-4 minutes until I slowed down.

What would you have done, if anything

[PTK]

Just count your blessings and be thankful nothing happened. That's what counts and that's all you can do. It may have been that he just didn't see you.

Similar thing happened to me at Mt. Pocono, (KMPO) several years ago only worse. This was before adsb. I was flying an Arrow on final approach preparing to land when literally out of nowhere comes an airplane from no more than 50 feet above me, and cuts in front of me! No radio calls no nothing. He had to be deaf mute and blind not to hear my radio calls or see me! Must've had to go bad! I broke the approach and let him land.

We have to make room for the idiots amongst us! They will always be around us.

[XXX]

I am beginning to believe this is and has been a common occurrence in G.A. The only difference today is technology makes us aware of it. I almost always use VFR flight following for the extra measure of awareness. 

Once when departing 18 with my wife and two very young (at the time) children, I happened to look down on climb out only to see an Eclipse jet flying under us in the opposite direction. I had been announcing my position since taxi, he was shooting an ILS to 36 an never made a call on advisory. I immediately called approach to inquire if they were working with an Eclipse at KOCF and was told yes but he had switched to the local frequency.  If I had not looked out and down (we were in a high wing) I would have never known.  It makes me wonder how many times I've been close to another aircraft and never had a clue. 

 

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, Danb said:

I was flying into Lancaster yesterday and received a traffic alert on adsb.A big yellow plane +100 directly above me, well I thought it was a false alert of my own position but after 30 seconds or so it didn't go away I tried looking up saw nothing so I slowed down, then a Baron appeared just above me also going into Lancaster, I called and gave my position and intentions was asked to sqwack was told a plane appears above and just past me he is not in contact with him. I told the controller he just appeared and passed overhead was told keep visual separation proceed right downwind runway 13, then the Baron called in given left downwind 13. 

I was amazed at the poor airmanship and danger imposed on me, I was going to confront the guy but didn't. My buddies at KILG said I should have done something like confronting him or talk to tower or something ? 

Its been bothering me about how close I came to a midair plus I did nothing about it. He was on top of me most likely less than 100 feet for 3-4 minutes until I slowed down.

What would you have done, if anything

Dan -- what time was this? The reason I am asking is that I think I know who was in the Baron. He left New Garden sometime in the afternoon to go to Lancaster to swing his compass. This could be the same guy. And I know how you can reach him. Time to Marine up...

[Danb]

Around 2:30-3:30

[Marauder]

Just now, Danb said:

Around 2:30-3:30

That would be them. Did you hear where they went when they got to the airport?

[Danb]

 I went to Weber's they to the Pilot shop to get gas and did not see them on that side, so not sure where they went. The dude needs to acquire some piloting skills or learn so decorum. In 30 yrs of flying that was the closest I've been to a plane in flight. If I could Id turn him into the Fisdo even though it would do no good.

[Marauder]

Just now, Danb said:

 I went to Weber's they to the Pilot shop to get gas and did not see them on that side, so not sure where they went. The dude needs to acquire some piloting skills or learn so decorum. In 30 yrs of flying that was the closest I've been to a plane in flight. If I could Id turn him into the Fisdo even though it would do no good.

Want their names? 

[Danb]

1 hour ago, Chupacabra said:

I am beginning to believe this is and has been a common occurrence in G.A. The only difference today is technology makes us aware of it. I almost always use VFR flight following for the extra measure of awareness. 

Once when departing 18 with my wife and two very young (at the time) children, I happened to look down on climb out only to see an Eclipse jet flying under us in the opposite direction. I had been announcing my position since taxi, he was shooting an ILS to 36 an never made a call on advisory. I immediately called approach to inquire if they were working with an Eclipse at KOCF and was told yes but he had switched to the local frequency.  If I had not looked out and down (we were in a high wing) I would have never known.  It makes me wonder how many times I've been close to another aircraft and never had a clue. 

 

This guy was right above me for awhile when he went past me he was close enough I could see his dirty belly, I guess Baron guys don't clean there planes

[Danb]

Sure you can e-mail me if you want, are they jerks or clueless

[Marauder]

I know the passenger. He is a new Mooney owner and is a nice guy. He is an active pilot and takes his flying seriously. He is working with my buddy on his Mooney checkout requirements. I met the Baron owner. He has owned his Baron since 2009. I saw the plane up close and spoke with the owner for a while. Definitely not a cowboy.

My guess is that they weren't paying attention. They had a new compass installed and were talking about flying over to Lancaster to have it calibrated. I don't get the sense they did this maliciously. I will send you the Mooney owner's email, let him know we spoke.

[Danb]

Sounds good, I'd rather just have him concerned, I don't want to do him any harm

[pinerunner]

I don't think they were being deliberately rude. They'd have been just as dead as you if there had been a collision. I just read an article that said 'see and avoid' is much harder than we appreciate. And of course it gets worse at airports where we get bunched up.

If we could just stay away from active airports.

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

How do you start the conversation?  "Hi. I'm the guy who just saved your life."(?)

[jkhirsch]

If someone is not communicating and I later find out it wasn't an "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" situation I would have a real problem with that. Communication is very simple and proper and accurate communication is life-saving as we have seen many times in safety discussions.

I assume that some deaths and accidents deviate from proper and accurate communication due to the fear of "legal consequences" for "putting themselves into a jam" or taking a "risk" that they were comfortable with.

I would begin the conversation as blunt as possible and try to avoid tone:

"Hi this is ____ ____, I was flying the downwind yesterday at Lancaster and you ended up 100 feet above me and there was no radio communication."

Then I would let them respond, and go from there.

[Marauder]

I don't know the details of this situation since I wasn't in either plane. Dan has been introduced to the passenger and fellow Mooney owner by me through email. I will let them hash it out. Honestly, if I understood Dan's original post, both were in uncontrolled airspace and not yet in the Class D. Doesn't this stuff happen routinely? It does for me. (Hence my interest in sorting out the ADS-B stuff).

I was flying VFR into Westminster Maryland last week and was playing with the features on an audio panel I am evaluating and not doing a thorough scan. My Garmin Pilot app pops up a traffic alert. It's a Cessna directly ahead of me at the same exact altitude and flying the exact same course and of course into the setting sun. No one to blame because neither of us were talking to anyone. I wouldn't want to be a controller because I bet they see this all of the time and can do nothing about it.

[Bob_Belville]

That's a towered field, isn't it? Were you both in the tower's airspace?

 

[peevee]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

That's a towered field, isn't it? Were you both in the tower's airspace?

 

if it's class D it doesn't matter. they are not responsible for the airspace.

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, peevee said:

if it's class D it doesn't matter. they are not responsible for the airspace.

Aren't the pilots required to make contact when entering their space?

[peevee]

12 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Aren't the pilots required to make contact when entering their space?

Yes. What does that have to do with anything I said?

 

AIM 3-2-5 (e)

Separation for VFR Aircraft. No separation
services are provided to VFR aircraft.

 

Controllers at class D airports do not provide separation services to VFR aircraft in class D airspace. They are only responsible for the surface areas but may provide traffic advisories and suggestions depending on workload and what kind of equipment and certification they have.If you want IFR services the cost of admission is an IFR flight plan.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2016 by peevee

[Bob_Belville]

22 minutes ago, peevee said:

Yes. What does that have to do with anything I said?

 

AIM 3-2-5 (e)

Separation for VFR Aircraft. No separation
services are provided to VFR aircraft.

 

Controllers at class D airports do not provide separation services to VFR aircraft in class D airspace. They are only responsible for the surface areas but may provide traffic advisories and suggestions depending on workload and what kind of equipment and certification they have.If you want IFR services the cost of admission is an IFR flight plan.

 

 

Prior to entering the Class D the pilot must establish radio contact with the tower. The OP does not tell us what altitude he was at the time (the Class D extends to 2900 MSL = 2500 AGL) but assuming a reasonable definition of "downwind", both planes are in or near the Class D and should have been talking to the tower which might have alerted each to the other's presence.

[Marauder]

I believe this occurred outside of the KLNS Class D and neither were being worked by Harrisburg that performs the radar coverage for Lancaster. Peevee is right, we own the separation even in Class D under VFR.

[Stetson20]

39 minutes ago, peevee said:

Yes. What does that have to do with anything I said?

 

AIM 3-2-5 (e)

Separation for VFR Aircraft. No separation
services are provided to VFR aircraft.

 

Controllers at class D airports do not provide separation services to VFR aircraft in class D airspace. They are only responsible for the surface areas but may provide traffic advisories and suggestions depending on workload and what kind of equipment and certification they have.If you want IFR services the cost of admission is an IFR flight plan.

 

 

If the Baron had talked to tower, that should have alerted the Mooney to another aircraft in the Class D. That's how I read the scenario. Did either aircraft talk to tower? Was tower operational at the time? 

Just my .02

[peevee]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

Prior to entering the Class D the pilot must establish radio contact with the tower. The OP does not tell us what altitude he was at the time (the Class D extends to 2900 MSL = 2500 AGL) but assuming a reasonable definition of "downwind", both planes are in or near the Class D and should have been talking to the tower which might have alerted each to the other's presence.

So what if they were both talking to tower? So what if they were in/out/above adjacent to class D airspace? Does the tower have radar? Are they certified to use it? The chances are that the tower has no idea where they are except a rough direction and distance. All of it is moot. You guys think as soon as you enter class D airspace you can stop looking around because it's someone else's problem. IT ISN'T. IT IS YOUR JOB TO SEE AND AVOID.

The twin likely never saw the mooney against city clutter, especially at an angle with a low wing and engine in the way but by all means, hunt the guy down and yell at him, I'm sure it'll make you feel better.

Edited October 7, 2016 by peevee

[Stetson20]

Just now, peevee said:

So what if they were both talking to tower? So what if they were in/out/above adjacent to class D airspace? Does the tower have radar? Are they certified to use it? The chances are that the tower has no idea where they are except a rough direction and distance. All of it is moot. You guys think as soon as you enter class D airspace you can stop looking around because it's someone else's problem. IT ISN'T. IT IS YOUR JOB TO SEE AND AVOID.

Nope. Just another tool for situational awareness. You seem a little aggressive in your response. Aren't we all trying to learn from the situation so it lessens the chance of another near mid-air?

Tell me what else I think.