Flying to close, what would you have done, if anything.

[peevee]

Just now, Stetson20 said:

Aren't we all trying to learn from the situation so it lessens the chance of another near mid-air?

 

No, we seem to be trying to blame anyone else we can for it.

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, peevee said:

So what if they were both talking to tower? So what if they were in/out/above adjacent to class D airspace? Does the tower have radar? Are they certified to use it? The chances are that the tower has no idea where they are except a rough direction and distance. All of it is moot. You guys think as soon as you enter class D airspace you can stop looking around because it's someone else's problem. IT ISN'T. IT IS YOUR JOB TO SEE AND AVOID.

KLNS has a BRITE from Harrisburg. I listened to the tapes. Dan called 15 out, the Baron 12 out. Dan was at 2,600' the Baron was at 3,300'. The rules can found under 91.113. Not sure who was faster and that becomes the deciding factor per the FAR. The exchange with the tower starts around 24 minutes. Now you guys know why I want TAS in my plane! This is the stuff I see all the time around here when I am VFR.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/klns/KLNS-Twr-Oct-06-2016-1830Z.mp3

[Marauder]

Just now, Stetson20 said:

Nope. Just another tool for situational awareness. You seem a little aggressive in your response. Aren't we all trying to learn from the situation so it lessens the chance of another near mid-air?

Tell me what else I think. 

If I am not mistaken Peevee is a controller. To be honest, listening to the tapes and speaking to people in both planes, this IS the real world of uncontrolled airspace. The rules are clear in the FAR concerning right of way.

BOTH planes had onboard TIS and BOTH planes saw each other. 91.113 applies.

[Stetson20]

Just now, peevee said:

No, we seem to be trying to blame anyone else we can for it.

I didn't read it that way. But I did learn something. Another tool for the kit. I much prefer learning from others experiences. I like my flights unexciting these days.

No blame being directed here. Just another learning experience. 

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, peevee said:

So what if they were both talking to tower? So what if they were in/out/above adjacent to class D airspace? Does the tower have radar? Are they certified to use it? The chances are that the tower has no idea where they are except a rough direction and distance. All of it is moot. You guys think as soon as you enter class D airspace you can stop looking around because it's someone else's problem. IT ISN'T. IT IS YOUR JOB TO SEE AND AVOID.

No need to shout. I think we all know what VFR rules are re see and be seen. I did not and I don't think anyone else claims that the tower should have known about the exact position of the planes. All I'm pointing out is that airports attract airplanes. If faster planes, in particular, wait until the last moment to announce their intentions to land they are asking for close calls. 

[peevee]

Just now, Marauder said:

KLNS has a BRITE from Harrisburg. I listened to the tapes. Dan called 15 out, the Baron 12 out. Dan was at 2,600' the Baron was at 3,300'. The rules can found under 91.113. Not sure who was faster and that becomes the deciding factor per the FAR.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/klns/KLNS-Twr-Oct-06-2016-1830Z.mp3

And how many other targets are in the area on their DBRITE? if there are 15 targets squawking 1200 he might mistake him for another target. Either way, additional services are advisory in nature and provided workload permitting. The point is, see and avoid is still the pilots responsibility.

[Stetson20]

8 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Prior to entering the Class D the pilot must establish radio contact with the tower. The OP does not tell us what altitude he was at the time (the Class D extends to 2900 MSL = 2500 AGL) but assuming a reasonable definition of "downwind", both planes are in or near the Class D and should have been talking to the tower which might have alerted each to the other's presence.

This

[peevee]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

No need to shout. I think we all know what VFR rules are re see and be seen. I did not and I don't think anyone else claims that the tower should have known about the exact position of the planes. All I'm pointing out is that airports attract airplanes. If faster planes, in particular, wait until the last moment to announce their intentions to land they are asking for close calls. 

Personally I would have outrun the baron

[Marauder]

Just now, peevee said:

And how many other targets are in the area on their DBRITE? if there are 15 targets squawking 1200 he might mistake him for another target. Either way, additional services are advisory in nature and provided workload permitting. The point is, see and avoid is still the pilots responsibility.

Never said it was the tower's responsibility, just pointed out they have a BRITE. The rules are in the FAR I quoted. It is the pilot responsibility.

[Bob_Belville]

Flying cross country? I file. See and be seen is the law but I want all the help I can get. (It is scary to have ATC or TIS point out traffic that passes pretty close that we do not see even knowing where to look.)

[PMcClure]

Based on what i read here (didn't listen to the tape), I don't fault the Barron or the Mooney. They both called location and were outside of class D. If there was an accident, I suspect they would blame the Baron pilot more since he would have overtaken and descended into the Mooney. But they would have noted both pilots as responsible for see and avoid.

I would still approach them but with the attitude of  - "hey we both almost died yesterday, what can we learn from it" than hey "idiot you almost killed me". Seems more can be learned from this approach and perhaps a friendship started that leads to happier times. 

 

[XXX]

8 minutes ago, PMcClure said:

 

I would still approach them but with the attitude of  - "hey we both almost died yesterday, what can we learn from it" than hey "idiot you almost killed me". Seems more can be learned from this approach and perhaps a friendship started that leads to happier times. 

 

Wisdom from a true southern gentleman.

[AndyFromCB]

48 minutes ago, peevee said:

Personally I would have outrun the baron

Hard to do for a Turbo Mooney below about 12,000ft ;-)

Big sky theory at work. Had the same thing happen to me 3 times in my life. Actually had a smoldering cigarette butt fly right past me tossed out of the little side window of a Piper Seneca. Really nobody to blame, see and avoid is mostly a joke invented for peace of mind more than having any value in providing actual separation. Sticking to sofa, netflix and drinking is the only sure way of avoiding a midair. 

Edited October 7, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[jkhirsch]

If two planes get that close together on accident  [or without knowing they are that close] while "maneuvering" for a landing someone has done something wrong.

If there are clear calls on the tape from both pilots and they didn't engage each other then they are both wrong. I could not careless about the guy in the tower at a Class D if I hear there's other traffic anywhere near me. The other plane and I are going to get on the same page as quickly as practicable. I could also not careless about "me having the right-of-way," doesn't matter how right you are if you're dead.

Edited October 7, 2016 by jkhirsch

[Yetti]

I think the "problem" starts when we start assigning blame or right or wrong.   There are less pilots than PHDs in the world. Can't we just work together for a good outcome?

 

[Bob_Belville]

3 minutes ago, Yetti said:

 There are less pilots than PHDs in the world. 

 

Is that true?!

[GeorgePerry]

11 hours ago, Danb said:

I was flying into Lancaster yesterday and received a traffic alert on adsb.A big yellow plane +100 directly above me, well I thought it was a false alert of my own position but after 30 seconds or so it didn't go away I tried looking up saw nothing so I slowed down, then a Baron appeared just above me also going into Lancaster, I called and gave my position and intentions was asked to sqwack was told a plane appears above and just past me he is not in contact with him. I told the controller he just appeared and passed overhead was told keep visual separation proceed right downwind runway 13, then the Baron called in given left downwind 13. 

I was amazed at the poor airmanship and danger imposed on me, I was going to confront the guy but didn't. My buddies at KILG said I should have done something like confronting him or talk to tower or something ? 

Its been bothering me about how close I came to a midair plus I did nothing about it. He was on top of me most likely less than 100 feet for 3-4 minutes until I slowed down.

What would you have done, if anything

Glad you're alright.  If flying VFR its hard to lay blame on anyone.  Often times pilots just don't see what's around them.  Your story solidifies the fact that ADS-B traffic has become an indispensable tool, esp for traffic avoidance.  I have it and hate flying anything that doesn't.

Best way to handle a situation like that is have a calm conversation and put in terms any rational person can relate to.  Example "Coming into the field we got really close.  I didn't see you and I guess you didn't see me.  GA doesn't have enough pilots to lose, any more.  I'm glad I talked to the tower and my ADS-B was there to help keep us apart.  Do you have ADS-B?  When did you check in with tower b/c I didn't hear you on the radio."

Of course all that's easy to say without the emotion of a near death experience running through the veins.  Most pilots want to do the right thing and are open to feedback.  I've said sorry more than once over the radio when I've screwed it up.  

[AndyFromCB]

14 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Is that true?!

Oh yeah, everybody these days seem to have a PhD. I know a lot more PhDs than pilots in real life by a good 10 to 1 ratio. About 600,000 pilots total, about 2,800,000 PhDs.

Edited October 7, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[jkhirsch]

29 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I think the "problem" starts when we start assigning blame or right or wrong.   There are less pilots than PHDs in the world. Can't we just work together for a good outcome?

 

Unless you believe that people are supposed to die while flying airplanes, if someone dies it is wrong.

The definition of blame is to assign responsibility for a fault or wrong.

Someone is responsible when something goes wrong, especially when someone dies.

There is nothing complicated about making correct radio calls or listening for others radio calls.

If you don't make correct radio calls you are wrong, if you don't listen to others radio calls you are wrong.

If you are wrong then you are to blame.

Don't pitch me ADS-B as a cure for not following procedure.

ADS-B does not make pilots more aware, it allows pilots be less aware and let the equipment think for them. (Nah...if there's traffic the "finder" will pick it up, plus I've got an audible alert that dings in my headset, plus now ADS-B is mandatory they'll see me, everything is A OK)

If ADS-B was pitched with the equal requirement of automated avoidance systems then fine, I'm all for it.

[Hank]

Radio schmadio. VFR flight is see and avoid. Neither pilot saw, then one did, and he avoided. Good thing or there'd be two fewer pilots today. 

But I still think the Baron pilot should know what (almost) happened, it may increase his vigilance for a little while. 

Always fly as if your life depended on it. Because it does. 

[jkhirsch]

Procedures were created so that people work together for a "good" outcome. If you don't follow procedure and something goes "wrong" it's your fault.

[bradp]

No mention of VFR traffic advisory service from Harrisburg so far in this thread - except that both pilots were not using it.

It's not so big a sky.  Use /all/ of the tools at our disposal.

 

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, jkhirsch said:

Unless you believe that people are supposed to die while flying airplanes, if someone dies it is wrong.

The definition of blame is to assign responsibility for a fault or wrong.

Someone is responsible when something goes wrong, especially when someone dies.

There is nothing complicated about making correct radio calls or listening for others radio calls.

If you don't make correct radio calls you are wrong, if you don't listen to others radio calls you are wrong.

If you are wrong then you are to blame.

Good to know you have never made a mistake when flying.

[AndyFromCB]

2 hours ago, jkhirsch said:

Unless you believe that people are supposed to die while flying airplanes, if someone dies it is wrong.

The definition of blame is to assign responsibility for a fault or wrong.

Someone is responsible when something goes wrong, especially when someone dies.

There is nothing complicated about making correct radio calls or listening for others radio calls.

If you don't make correct radio calls you are wrong, if you don't listen to others radio calls you are wrong.

If you are wrong then you are to blame.

Don't pitch me ADS-B as a cure for not following procedure.

ADS-B does not make pilots more aware, it allows pilots be less aware and let the equipment think for them. (Nah...if there's traffic the "finder" will pick it up, plus I've got an audible alert that dings in my headset, plus now ADS-B is mandatory they'll see me, everything is A OK)

If ADS-B was pitched with the equal requirement of automated avoidance systems then fine, I'm all for it.

Yes, but even the radio doesn't solve much. Around here everybody has a very different idea of what north, east, west and south means and 2 miles south-east can mean between 1 to 5 miles on probably 110 different possible headings. Radio solves very little until in or close to pattern. With active traffic showing you exact direction and altitude and actively looking for traffic, I don't see them about 10% of the time and if it wasn't for active traffic I highly doubt I'd see half the traffic at all.

[jrwilson]

I was on the 45 going into Columbia o22 and had been announcing my position.  Out of nowhere, a green camouflaged L-3, cub type thing goes by 20' below me.  He had a sky-light and I see the pilot and passenger looking up at me with an "oh crap" look on their faces.  We were that close,. He starts talking on the radio at that point.  

I parked at the pump and he parked nearby.  I was going to yell at him, but he walked over first, apologized and said he was transmitting, just on the wrong frequency.  So while he screwed up, he was at least very courteous about it afterwards...

 

Edited October 8, 2016 by jrwilson