PreBuy

[mccdeuce]

So I have found another plane - come to a price agreement. Its in Houston - and planning to take it to prebuy at Maxwell. 

The plane is corporate owned - used as their backup airplane.  Airplane came out of Annual on Monday.

Initial discussion was for me to cover the costs of fuel to take to Don, transport home for the pilot, as well as pay the pilot's daily fee.  (which is $500)
Im good with the fuel and transport but paying for his fee seems a little much for me.  PreBuys are normal practice and I feel that it should be the owner who moves the plane within reason for inspection. Otherwise I would do it myself - but of course I don't own the airplane yet!

Am I wrong here?

[Oldguy]

Personally, if I am not flying a plane, I would end up paying someone to do it, and in the case where it was not my plane, the decision as to who would do it would not be mine. From the brief description, it sounds like the owner is a corporation with a flight department with professional pilots. I don't think it is unreasonable to pay it.

And at $500 a day, that is less than my mechanic charges for an 8 hour day.

[DVA]

mccdeuce, Hi and good luck on this one!

There are no rules wrt pre-buys and who pays for what, the best you can do is negotiate.

If the seller is confident that the plane will pass the pre-buy, and you are committed to purchasing the plane if it passes, I would ask the seller to compensate the pilot, and you would bear the costs of the inspection as part of a presumed “closed” deal. If the seller hedges on his confidence that the plane will pass the pre-buy, I’d take that as a sign to move on.

In the end, do you want the plane more than the seller wants to sell it?

Its the art of the deal.

 

[mccdeuce]

Fair enough.

Paying for the pilot and transport to and from pre buy location it may be better to just have my local guys do the prebuy. and then its already here.

[Zwaustin]

When I bought my K out of Utah it went to Maxwell for pre buy prior to closing. Cost was about 1800 to get it there which included fuel, a pilot and his airfare home from Longview to Utah. Seller split this cost with me. I don't know that this is that common but it was what I got him to agree to do and it worked well for us both. He also paid for most of the pre buy findings as the plane was a week out of a fresh annual when Maxwell got it.

[Stetson20]

1 hour ago, mccdeuce said:

So I have found another plane - come to a price agreement. Its in Houston - and planning to take it to prebuy at Maxwell. 

The plane is corporate owned - used as their backup airplane.  Airplane came out of Annual on Monday.

Initial discussion was for me to cover the costs of fuel to take to Don, transport home for the pilot, as well as pay the pilot's daily fee.  (which is $500)
Im good with the fuel and transport but paying for his fee seems a little much for me.  PreBuys are normal practice and I feel that it should be the owner who moves the plane within reason for inspection. Otherwise I would do it myself - but of course I don't own the airplane yet!

Am I wrong here?

Good luck! Send pics when you close the deal!

I saw a really nice J model there in Norfolk for 98k. Have you seen it? Is it out of your price range?

I think it was on Trade-A-Plane

Roy

[carusoam]

There are going to be a lot of small costs involved, PPI, updates, TT, fuel, distance, other people's efforts....

If you are paying the asking price, it is easier to negotiate those other costs.  

If you have negotiated the price already, you should have thought this out more completely.

If you are taking the plane all the way to see Don Maxwell, you are sure this is the plane you want.

A PPI is for the protection of your wallet.

One done at Don's shop has always been the best protection available.

Don't forget to write a purchase agreement.  A top 10 list of what you both agree to.

Transition Training is for the protection of your life.

Don't take short cuts, unknowingly...

I am not a plane buyer or seller.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[mccdeuce]

1 hour ago, Stetson20 said:

Good luck! Send pics when you close the deal!

I saw a really nice J model there in Norfolk for 98k. Have you seen it? Is it out of your price range?

I think it was on Trade-A-Plane

Roy

Saw the one here in Norfolk. K model I think.  It's nice for sure but my mission requires me to not fly at oxygen altitudes. My pup deals with hearing protection (barely) and I'm sure would rip off the dog oxygen mask.....

So in that sense the extra expenses of the K I don't think meet my budget. 

[mccdeuce]

So the plane is only an hour and half from Don's and I mentioned that I wanted Don to do the pre-buy and the answer was that that was fine. Then once price was agreed upon and working out the details of getting the pre buy done the price of the pilot came up.  Just had never experienced that before. Then again this is only my 3rd time (not counting the failed pre buy)

[carusoam]

Check to see if the dog O2 is in reality a requirement.  There was another MSer in flight training that was looking into it.

1) If it's important, the equipment to know it's working doesn't seem realistic. How do you test the O2 level on a dog.

2) especially if he's gone to the baggage compartment to hide out...

3) how do you know the ear protection is working?  Is he visibly more comfortable?

my dog won't answer my questions...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[mccdeuce]

Ha! Well it's a husky and she sure talks to me.

wihout the hearing pro she would go to sleep. With hearing pro she's glued to the window watching the world. I base it on that. 

It may not be a requirement but it just doesn't seem like the best idea to me. She's everything. She keeps me sane. So not a risk I'm willing to take. The E I'm looking at is more than half the K and meets my mission.

[Guest]

Aren't dogs known to have hearing in the higher frequency ranges? If so then why the Doggy muffs?

Clarence

[carusoam]

12,500' is probably the best way to handle it.  Pets may be different from humans in this regard.

Do we have any vets around to ask? (We have in the past)

 

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

Aren't dogs known to have hearing in the higher frequency ranges? If so then why the Doggy muffs?

Clarence

So they dont lose their hearing. My J noise level is 90-95dB, I assume more sensitive hearing is more sensitive to loud noise...

[Bravoman]

Our cat travels real well in the flight levels with no supplemental O2. He just crawls into my wife's lap and goes to sleep (:

[glafaille]

Mccdeuce:

Hello!  My son is an Ensign in Norfolk, been there for a year after finishing up OCS about a year ago.

I spent almost 6 months looking for a C model Mooney but was not successful and ended up with something else.  I know how hard it is to shop long distance via internet and telephone.  I don't know how long you've been at this so I will offer a few tips anyway.

I hope you have done your due diligence before comitting to the pre-buy.  Have you inspected all of the logs, mapped out the STCsand 337 to compare with the log entries, insured all ADs are complied with and the SBs that are important to you complied with? Happy with the maintenance of all expensive components, prop, engine, mags?  Have you had someone put hands on it for you to warn of severe hangar rash, corrosion or leaky tanks?  Pretty cheap to hire a mechanic for a few hours to drive over and have a look, or maybe just a friend.

It's really difficult to get a read on a plane from a thousand miles away, you have to be extra careful.

As to the pilot, Don Maxwell may know of someone.  And by the way, ask Don if he is familiar with the airplane.

Please send me a PM if you need any help on this end, I work at KGGG where Maxwell is and live in Tyler, about 120 mi North of Houston. 

Good luck with your purchase!

Gene

[KLRDMD]

On September 15, 2016 at 0:36 PM, glafaille said:

I spent almost 6 months looking for a C model Mooney but was not successful and ended up with something else.  I know how hard it is to shop long distance via internet and telephone.  I don't know how long you've been at this so I will offer a few tips anyway. I hope you have done your due diligence before comitting to the pre-buy.  Have you inspected all of the logs, mapped out the STCsand 337 to compare with the log entries, insured all ADs are complied with and the SBs that are important to you complied with? Happy with the maintenance of all expensive components, prop, engine, mags?  Have you had someone put hands on it for you to warn of severe hangar rash, corrosion or leaky tanks?  Pretty cheap to hire a mechanic for a few hours to drive over and have a look, or maybe just a friend. It's really difficult to get a read on a plane from a thousand miles away, you have to be extra careful.

I find it amusing how difficult many make buying an airplane. Less than a month ago, Jimmy Garrison posted a Mooney for sale or trade. I sent him an E-Mail (on a Saturday) expressing interest. The first thing Tuesday morning we had a deal. Not a single phone call even, just E-Mail. And that was with a trade, more complicated than a straight sale. We sent each other logs after the fact just to verify what we had already told each other.  No pre-buys on either side, just be honest with each other. The average "C" model is about 1/3 the price of what the airplane I bought sold for. It isn't that complicated and shouldn't be that expensive a proposition. Buy from someone you trust and get on with it.

Six months to buy a "C" model ? I don't have that kind of patience.

[glafaille]

KLRDMD:

I'm very happy you had a very easy time finding what you were looking for at All American.  I'm impressed that you purchase planes without a prebuy.  You are a trusting man indeed.

I made a point of driving 5 hours to see Mr. Garrison in person after spending a couple of weeks attepting communications via phone and email with only limited success.  My visit in person was not productive, he did not have a "C" model Mooney that met my requirements.

I wouldn't think of purchasing an airplane from anyone without a pre-purchase inspection, even All American.  No dealer can be expected to know everything about the aircraft they represent.

Finding a Mooney is easy.  Finding one fairly priced, in good condition, with complete logs and a good history is not.

 

[KLRDMD]

4 minutes ago, glafaille said:

I made a point of driving 5 hours to see Mr. Garrison in person after spending a couple of weeks waiting on emails and phone calls.  My visit was not productive.I wouldn't think of purchasing an airplane from anyone without a pre-purchase inspection, even All American.  No dealer can be expected to know everything about the aircraft they represent. Finding a Mooney is easy.  Finding one fairly priced, in good condition, with complete logs and a good history is not.

I'm guessing you don't have a lot of experience buying and selling airplanes. Most of the airplanes I've bought were without a pre-buy and most without ever seeing them in person. I've never been burned. Of course I've only bought 14 airplanes in my flying career so there's always a first time, I guess. Finding a fairly priced Mooney, in good condition, with complete logs and a good history is not difficult at all.

[glafaille]

You guess correctly.  Long time aviation professional but first time single engine piston buyer.  You are a lucky man indeed to have had such awesome luck buying used airplanes.  I wish I had time to describe all the problems I encountered, missing logs, undocumented overhauls, pencil whipped annuals, missing STCs, wrinkled skins, corrosion, severe hangar rash, and the list goes on.  

To think you have not encountered any problems is nothing short of astounding.

Perhaps you should teach a class or at least clue others in on how to find nice planes.  I would love to learn your secret.

[KLRDMD]

Just now, glafaille said:

You guess correctly.  Long time aviation professional but first time single engine piston buyer.  You are a lucky man indeed to have had such awesome luck buying used airplanes.  I wish I had time to describe all the problems I encountered, missing logs, undocumented overhauls, pencil whipped annuals, missing STCs, wrinkled skins, corrosion, severe hangar rash, and the list goes on.  To think you have not encountered any problems is nothing short of astounding. Perhaps you should teach a class or at least clue others in on how to find nice planes.  I would love to learn your secret.

It has nothing to do with luck; it has everything to do with preparation, expectations and dealing with honest people. There have been any number of sellers that I've walked away from for various reasons. I'm happy to help anyone buy an airplane, simply ask. Give me specifics and I'll work with you, or anyone in making recommendations. I've found lots of airplanes for friends over the years. None have been unhappy.

[carusoam]

it's OK when...

Some young people don't have the kind of excess cash available to zip on over to AAA.  Less cash = more risk.  

Waiting for a Mooney to show up for sale, close enough to rent a plane to go see,  may take additional time.

Life's other challenges may get in the way...  Rent, kids, and food.

What does one do when you accidently buy a plane that doesn't meet expectations?  There are some horrible examples around here of this.

There have been a few failed PPIs and a couple of rusty tubes and at least one corroded spar in recent plane purchases around here.  It certainly isn't a lot, or most, but it could end a young Guy's flying career...

Ken's experience may not fit the next guy...?  

It can be very helpful to know the person selling a plane.  At MS you might know a few...

buy from an owner that has excess cash.  They are more able to keep maintenance up to date, and a roof over it's air frame.

Newer 200 AMU planes are more likely to pass a PPI with no issues than older 20 AMU planes. But who wants to risk spending 200 AMU without everything being reviewed.

Then there are people that have gained experience in buying and selling planes.  They can be as complex as buying and selling a house.  Once you have bought 13, the 14th doesn't have much mystery to it.

PPIs are for protecting an ordinary Guy's wallet.  Even then the PPI isn't a guarantee, there are no standards.  The more you pay, the more gets reviewed...

Its kinda like an insurance policy.

Just my PP thoughts,

-a-

 

[KLRDMD]

Just now, carusoam said:

Newer 200 AMU planes are more likely to pass a PPI with no issues than older 20 AMU planes. But who wants to risk spending 200 AMU withiut everything being reviewed.

Me, me, me, me . . .  

Of course the airplane (known ice Mooney Bravo) was listed by Don Maxwell who was selling it for the widow and Don had maintained it for years. Who are you going to have do a pre-buy when Don just finished the annual last week (as well as the +/- 10 annuals before that) ?

My current 231 was listed by Jimmy Garrison with a recent annual by Dugosh. What would you expect a pre-buy to reveal ?

IMHO, pre-buys are only to make sure you don't end up with a $10,000 gotcha on your first annual and then only if you don't trust the seller.

[carusoam]

Trust or don't trust the seller...  Things break between annuals without telling the owner.

Corrosion of a spar is a creepy deal killer.  Seeing it first hand gives you a lesson on inter granular corrosion.  How quickly it can get too deep.

some less fortunate owners didn't recognize that was a spar cap under their kids feet, little spilled soda on the worn yellow anti-corrosion coating...

Some of us are more pilot and less machine guy.  Some of us are pretty good machine guys as well.

As for me, Bought from AAA, had PPI turned annual at Don's.  Didn't fly it until after I owned it.  Got transition training on the way home to NJ.

Some things just aren't worth the risk.  Having to explain taking these risks to my financial administrator keeps me from living on the edge.

You probably skipped the TT... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

Back to the topic

I am around Houston area.  Really busy with work, but I can maybe sneak over and take a look at it if you like