Stalls and slow flight poll/discussion.

[Bob - S50]

I'll wade in too...

Never stalled?  Does that mean you never flew a flight review?  Who are the people that voted never?

AOA indicators are a nice tool but they are not the do-all, be-all, cure to all problems.

I've got maybe 2000 hours in planes with AOA indicators.  The indication changes with every little twitch of the stick.  IF I had an AOA in my plane, I would not fly it on final.  Instead, I would use it to find the proper approach speed and then fly that airspeed.  I might reference the AOA during the final turn.  However, since I never horse the plane around the pattern and am willing to accept an overshoot of the final, I'm happy with just the airspeed indicator.  I already calculate a good final approach speed based on weight and maintain about 15 knots above that on base.  In the pattern, once I'm configured I only look at two things (assuming other traffic is not an issue), runway and airspeed... well, ok, I also check to make sure I'm not running my engine steady state in the yellow arc of the tachometer.

[cnoe]

18 hours ago, teejayevans said:

How does Cloudahoy know your IAS?

I followed up on your question in an e-mail with Chuck Shavit (the developer of the CloudAhoy app and am posting his response below. It's interesting to note that the app uses actual pitot information when available from an EFIS such as the G1000. I did not know that. Also, do click on the links for more info; they are informative.

 

A growing number of CloudAhoy flights are imported from an EFIS (such as G1000), and the IAS we display and use is the actual pitot measurement.

For flights logged using our iOS / Android app, or imported from sources (see http://help.cloudahoy.com/importing-flight-data) that do not include IAS, we compute the wind (see http://help.cloudahoy.com/wind) at every point along the flight path. We then compute the TAS from the GS and the wind. From the TAS we compute the IAS.

Feel free to post this in the forum.

 

[HRM]

11 hours ago, jonhop said:

My J's stall was so benign, that even I was surprised... 

Welcome to flying a Mooney

[201er]

50 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I don't think the plane stalls any different on a high and hot day

The pitch attitude of the stall will be lower (less dramatically nose up for a power on), the ground will be coming by quicker (higher TAS), and since the climb rate will be worse, a stronger impatience to pull back is more likely to occur. So while indicated airspeed will be the same, the "feel" of the situation will be different. Those who prefer to "keep their eyes outside in the pattern" are more likely to fall victim to this stall scenario when high, hot, and heavy.

Another reason rising terrain leads to inadvertent stalls is pulling back to set pitch attitude by a false horizon. Not even the "pull back to climb" situation but even with altitude to spare, pulling back to a pitch that looks normal but is actually too high. I found myself suckered into a progressively increasing angle of attack (declining airspeed) in the mountainous area by Gatlinburg, TN. Video of flying in that area but not the situation I mentioned.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, 201er said:

The pitch attitude of the stall will be lower (less dramatically nose up for a power on), the ground will be coming by quicker (higher TAS), and since the climb rate will be worse, a stronger impatience to pull back is more likely to occur. So while indicated airspeed will be the same, the "feel" of the situation will be different. Those who prefer to "keep their eyes outside in the pattern" are more likely to fall victim to this stall scenario when high, hot, and heavy.

Another reason rising terrain leads to inadvertent stalls is pulling back to set pitch attitude by a false horizon. Not even the "pull back to climb" situation but even with altitude to spare, pulling back to a pitch that looks normal but is actually too high. I found myself suckered into a progressively increasing angle of attack (declining airspeed) in the mountainous area by Gatlinburg, TN. Video of flying in that area but not the situation I mentioned.

 

Sure, Just as I said. The plane stalls the same as anywhere else, but when the conditions limit aircraft performance, you are more likely to get into a stall situation.

The pitch attitude of the stall is lower because you don't have enough power to get the nose that high in the first place. If you do stalls at 75% power instead of 100% power you will see similar stall performance.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't usually practice stalls at low altitude. I usually practice them at 4000 to 6000 AGL which puts me in the realm of a high elevation airport.

[AndyFromCB]

22 hours ago, 201er said:

I've had some close calls to power on stalls on departure when heavy at high DA.

There you go again pushing it. 

[201er]

9 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

There you go again pushing it. 

If you call taking off from Florida 3500ft runway at gross weight pushing it...

Came from winter in NY to hot florida to get gas before going onward. Just wasn't ready for takeoff performance to be THAT much worse after doing flights in the cold. AOAi helped get my head out of my ass and fly the wing and not the airspeed.

Other time was as a complete newb, first time with 4 people aboard a skyhawk because the 4 instructors I had learned from by that point did a poor job teaching me about angle of attack. They were inept and simply taught me to fly a specific airspeed and that's it. So I had no idea back then how my AOA was actually higher than expected (because of weight) while flying exactly the airspeed I was taught. I was a bit perplexed why the stall horn was chirping if I was spot on Vx "speed." I haven't talked to many instructors since that adequately teach angle of attack either. It's definitely an instruction and a culture problem in aviation.

[201er]

Good summary of some (but not all) reasons to fly by AOA: http://airfactsjournal.com/2015/03/airspeed-vs-angle-attack-pilots-dont-understand/

[Mooneymite]

When I was first learning to fly, I was taught to roll wings level, lower the nose and add power to recover from a stall.  Some instructors had the order different, but mostly it all happened at the same time.

Later in a part 121 simulator program, the emphasis was on rolling the wings level and "powering out of the stall", using power to achieve minimum altitude loss during the recovery.

Now Flight Safety is emphasising the importance of lowering the nose to unload the wing and accepting that there will be "some" altitude loss.

Isn't it strange how wings have always flown according to the same laws of physics, but how we are taught changes?

[Hank]

Mike, my only comment about your landing at Gatlinburg is that you touched down almost at the end of my home runway (3200'). I'm generally chirping on the third stripe; you touched down on stripe #10 or #11, and my previous base of 3000' runway had 13 stripes between the numbers. That may work for you, but if that is the steep approach you are advocating, it will not work for me, and it won't work for you if you come visit me.

I fly the pattern as I detailed above, and never reach the end of the runway unless I just want to, or the wind is squirrelly and I'm intentionally fast.

Fly on, though, just watch out for runways shorter than a mile . . .

[201er]

Just now, Hank said:

Mike, my only comment about your landing at Gatlinburg is that you touched down almost at the end of my home runway (3200'). I'm generally chirping on the third stripe; you touched down on stripe #10 or #11, and my previous base of 3000' runway had 13 stripes between the numbers. That may work for you, but if that is the steep approach you are advocating, it will not work for me, and it won't work for you if you come visit me.

I fly the pattern as I detailed above, and never reach the end of the runway unless I just want to, or the wind is squirrelly and I'm intentionally fast.

Fly on, though, just watch out for runways shorter than a mile . . .

Ever heard of landing long? I mean really...?

[Danb]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

Good summary of some (but not all) reasons to fly by AOA: http://airfactsjournal.com/2015/03/airspeed-vs-angle-attack-pilots-dont-understand/

Agreed but a nice explanation for those who don't understand the correlation of AOA in relation to real performance.

[Mooneymite]

Just now, Danb said:

Agreed but a nice explanation for those who don't understand the correlation of AOA in relation to real performance.

None of this makes any sense to me.  For those of you like me, here is what AOA means:

AOA (Ace of Angels)

[Greg252AY]

One thought I would like to bring up is that most (almost all) stalls in transport aircraft are with the auto pilot on.. Stall training in the simulator at my work  has changed from hand flying them to using the auto pilot until the stall then of course hand flying the recovery. For those of you that have autopilots i would become familiar with how your autopilot and airplane react to approaching and stall. Your more likely to stall the plane by mismanagement of the auto pilot than hand flying for those of you that use auto pilots regularly.

[AndyFromCB]

13 hours ago, 201er said:

If you call taking off from Florida 3500ft runway at gross weight pushing it...

Came from winter in NY to hot florida to get gas before going onward. Just wasn't ready for takeoff performance to be THAT much worse after doing flights in the cold. AOAi helped get my head out of my ass and fly the wing and not the airspeed.

Other time was as a complete newb, first time with 4 people aboard a skyhawk because the 4 instructors I had learned from by that point did a poor job teaching me about angle of attack. They were inept and simply taught me to fly a specific airspeed and that's it. So I had no idea back then how my AOA was actually higher than expected (because of weight) while flying exactly the airspeed I was taught. I was a bit perplexed why the stall horn was chirping if I was spot on Vx "speed." I haven't talked to many instructors since that adequately teach angle of attack either. It's definitely an instruction and a culture problem in aviation.

You are so full of shit it's not even funny. If your stall horn is chirping at Vx at sea level (Florida), no matter how hot, you've got some serious issues with your pitot-static system or you're pulling Gs. Yours truly has flown a 1969 short wing Piper Arrow (last overhaul was 1982, I highly doubt that bird made 180hp at sea level on a perfect day, much less the advertised 200hp) , at gross, from almost every CO airport including Leadville and never, not once was I close to stalling once I accelerated to Vx in ground effect. I've climbed away at 200fpm but never even came close to what you are describing. You mean you were severely over gross in the Skyhawk (4 people in a 172 puts you overgross with no fuel aboard), not having issues with Vx. Maybe if you interpolated your Vx for the overgross conditions you would have been just fine without your AOA gizmo. Once again, you are full of shit. Plenty of airplanes, including the Voyager, climbed away on just Vx and Vy alone, without your bullshit. Including the King Air flight I took today with a 83 year pilot that has more hours in more hardware (including SR71) than you can ever dream to achieve. The flight was done by the book, by indicated airspeed like the POH calls for. If it was't, I'd fire the pilot on the spot. I was in the right seat. I verified 50knots, airspeed alive, I called V1, we climbed away, made to Kansas City and Des Moines and back to Omaha just fine by airspeed alone. I don't think we ever banked more than 15 degrees either. The old fellow prides himself on keeping the ship upright and the passengers happy. He can plan ahead so he doesn't have to bank.

Do you know what KA350 safety record in US of A. Zero crashes. No AOA sensor on the PL21 (best system ever created for flight management, I love copy and paste, G1000 in a TBM is a joke vs ProLine 21). It does come with aural radar altimeter. Much more useful than any AOA gadget and this it on an airplane with a 12 or 13knot difference at vRef between heavy and light. If you're not a vRef on final(+5/-0 IIRC), you go around. Not one crashed so far being flown by IAS.

Edited September 16, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[N201MKTurbo]

Wind gusts and turbelance can cause the stall horn to chirp at Vx. Mine does it all the time around here.

[201er]

12 hours ago, AndyFromCB said:

You are so full of shit it's not even funny. If your stall horn is chirping at Vx at sea level (Florida), no matter how hot, you've got some serious issues with your pitot-static system or you're pulling Gs.

You mean you were severely over gross in the Skyhawk (4 people in a 172 puts you overgross with no fuel aboard), not having issues with Vx. Maybe if you interpolated your Vx for the overgross conditions you would have been just fine without your AOA gizmo. Once again, you are full of shit.

And you're reading comprehension skills are surpassed by a typical seven year old. If you can't even remember what you read two minutes prior when responding, I would never get in an airplane with you. I did not say the stall horn chirped in my Mooney in florida. I did not say the 172 was overgross nor that it was 4 adults. You're just making things up again just like you are making up how airplanes actually fly.

[cnoe]

Marauder? Roll her on in now.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mooneymite]

Just now, cnoe said:

Marauder? Roll her on in now.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Please!

[cnoe]

But quickly, before the fat lady appears (no singing necessary) I'd like to briefly summarize and comment on the poll question.

It is notable that essentially 60% of respondents have practiced a stall in the past 12 months while 40% have not.

Also, about 15% indicated that they have NEVER stalled their Mooney.

I will make no judgement as to the merits of stall training.

But it would be interesting to see if any correlation exists between the pilots' age and their propensity for regular (or even occasional) stall training.

[201er]

Just now, cnoe said:

But it would be interesting to see if any correlation exists between the pilots' age and their propensity for regular (or even occasional) stall training.

Sounds like another poll

[Jsavage3]

Well, this discussion is quickly going from "beneficial to some new-b" to just downright distasteful and disrespectful of fellow Mooney drivers. 

Do I practice stalls every month? No, it's not necessary to refresh my memory on the low-speed handling characteristics of my bird that often.  I usually do a stall or two at the request of my kids who love roller coasters...and I use it as an opportunity for my training...i.e. refreshing my memory.

The wing stalls because an aircraft-specific AOA was exceeded. That exceedance can occur at any airspeed and attitude.  There are MANY things that can effect the way an aircraft reacts to being placed in a stalled condition and THAT is why we train...different configs, attitudes, power settings, etc...so that we can further our knowledge of what the airplane is doing, how it feels to us and how it will likely react to our inputs. An inexperienced instructor will likely spend a lot of time focusing on the how-to-set-up-the-stall simply so they can drive the desired outcome...and prepare you for your checkride. An experienced instructor will cause you to put yourself into an unexpected & insidious stall situation to help you learn to correctly react to the unexpected.

As an USAF fighter pilot, I employed a weapon that included an AOA gauge and I was taught, in depth I might add, when it was prudent to use it...as well as how to use it.  AOA is not useful for the takeoff, as in nobody rotates an aircraft based on AOA, but it can add to one's situational awareness for the approach and landing...as in helping one identify 1.3 Vso.  If one has an AOA gauge, then using AOA in conjunction with the ASI would be the wisest way to keep your SA bucket full.

201er, I remember when you got your 201 and you were a new-b not all that long ago.  You're obvious lack of respect for your whole "four instructors" is disgusting and your willingness to get on a public forum and bash them the way you have is unprofessional to say the least...especially since I know just how small the aviation community really is.  Your sole reliance on some after-market "AOA" gauge and apparent lack of willingness to fully explore your airplane's low-speed envelope with stall training is sending a bad message to other new-bee pilots...i.e. setting a bad example.  I truly hope you don't bend your bird soon and cause our insurance prices to go up even more.

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Jsavage3

[jkhirsch]

I don't think Andy even used the word Mooney in his post unless he edited it out?

[Yetti]

Here is one:

I think the Mooney POH covers all this with one sentence.

"To allow a safe margin of safety above stall speed throughout the approach, hold airspeed above 90 mph (78 knots) until flaps are deployed."

Silly of me to refer to the POH,  And no 201er this does not mean you have to fly a 3 mile final and can't do 30 degree turns in the pattern.

[201er]

54 minutes ago, Jsavage3 said:

201er, I remember when you got your 201 and you were a new-b not all that long ago.  You're obvious lack of respect for your whole "four instructors" is disgusting and your willingness to get on a public forum and bash them the way you have is unprofessional to say the least...especially since I know just how small the aviation community really is.  Your sole reliance on some after-market "AOA" gauge and apparent lack of willingness to fully explore your airplane's low-speed envelope with stall training is sending a bad message to other new-bee pilots...i.e. setting a bad example.  I truly hope you don't bend your bird soon and cause our insurance prices to go up even more.

No, I just don't respect morons like who would rather lie about people than focus on the actual topic.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/19671-steep-turn-base-to-final/?do=findComment&comment=294055

"

On September 4, 2016 at 1:29 PM, carusoam said:

Great conversation points.  Do you have a method of cross checking the AOA to see if it is working properly?  Is it easy to verify against the ASI in the traffic pattern just before depending on it?  Do you see any effects on AOA caused by slipping to the left vs to the right?

Yes. While I fly by AOA as a concept, I don't solely rely on the AOA indicator for that information. I keep Angle of Attack and Angle of Attack Indicator as separate terms. AOA Indicator is the device that displays measured Angle of Attack. When I talk about flying by AOA, I actually mean by thinking in terms of Angle of Attack. My inference of angle of attack is not only fed by my angle of attack indicator. I also use airspeed, groundspeed, wind noise, pitch attitude, understanding of weight/da, etc for additional feedback to drive my impression of the AOA. Most pilots use those bits of information to derive airspeed and then solely use airspeed to interpret AOA. I on the other hand prefer to go straight to AOA. I cross check AOA and airspeed occasionally.

"

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/19752-stalls-and-slow-flight-polldiscussion/?do=findComment&comment=296048

" Other time was as a complete newb, first time with 4 people aboard a skyhawk because the 4 instructors I had learned from by that point did a poor job teaching me about angle of attack. They were inept and simply taught me to fly a specific airspeed and that's it. So I had no idea back then how my AOA was actually higher than expected (because of weight) while flying exactly the airspeed I was taught. I was a bit perplexed why the stall horn was chirping if I was spot on Vx "speed." I haven't talked to many instructors since that adequately teach angle of attack either. It's definitely an instruction and a culture problem in aviation."

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/19752-stalls-and-slow-flight-polldiscussion/?do=findComment&comment=295889

"1) I see no value in practicing stalls. Instructors and examiners are so hung up on making you stall completely and seeing the break. Beyond some initial training so you know what it is like, there is no benefit to stalling that far. Being able to recover early is better and it is shameful that instructors are more hung up on teaching you how to stall rather than how not to."

 

I enjoy learning. I enjoy hearing differing opinions. I feel challenged having my understandings challenged. Lying about what I said is all that's been happening though so I guess I'm right about everything if that's the best you can come up with.

Edited September 16, 2016 by 201er