Dream Panel?

[Discus]

O.K. Mooneyacs, tell me what your dream panel in an M-20 E would look like.  Only caviat is I don't want glass MFD's except for JPI.  I like steam.  Keeps things classy. Also, which autopilot would you get?

[gsxrpilot]

Without going glass, I don't see upgrading the panel in my C really at all.  

Certainly the left side is done. Both Primary (vacuum) and Secondary (electric) AI's, HSI, Stec 30 with Altitude hold, and finally, AOA.

Center stack also done: Garmin GMA-340 Audio, Garmin GNS-530 WAAS, Garmin GTX-330ES (ADSB Out)

Right side could be improved with a JPI 930 Engine monitor and a rearrangement of the layout.

Nice yokes with PTT and Autopilot controls built-in, along with full vernier controls, complete a really nice panel

[Glenn]

I felt the same way about round flight instruments when I redid the panel in my M-20F, I added the STEC 55X and the JPI 900 at the same time and have been very happy with it.  The GTX330es provides both traffic and ADS-B out. The GPS 496 provides XM-WX and music. 

I have owned this airplane for more than 30 years and this upgrade still makes me smile every time I fly it..  

 

Edited July 7, 2016 by Glenn
Better pix

[Bob_Belville]

Ignoring you no glass comment, here's a pic of my '66E panel. If $$$ is no factor or if you do not have a solid NavCom2 you could replace the KX155 with a GTN 650.

The AOA is the CYA100. There's a GDL 88 out of sight. The autopilot is a STEC50, you could go up to a STEC55 to get ALT preselect & ROC/ROD select.

My Stormscope is a WX900, I suppose a 500 would be your choice if you do not have one now.

The only vacuum instrument I have is the BU AI.

The EDM is the JPI 930.

The Xponder is a GTX 327, The A/P is a GMA 340, both new in 2012. The 750 can interface with remote units at a higher cost if panel space is a problem.

I have a Garmin 696 out of view on the right wired to ship power and connected to the 750.  

[DXB]

My panel redo was not quite a "no expense spared" upgrade, though it still made little sense in my old plane from a strictly economic perspective.  Instead I went for entry level modern equipment, tried to create a clean layout with good visibility and ergonomics from the left seat, and emphasized integration between components.

Don't rule out an Aspen PFD. If you want a reliable modern HSI (which you do), the one on the Aspen is fantastic, and includes two RMIs as a bonus.  The Aspen also negates the need to install GPSS (which you also want) as a separate item.  Thus the added cost isn't that great, and you can keep your "classy" 6 pack layout with the Aspen.  Also the Aspen plays very well in the sandbox with my GTN650 and STEC-30. And you can get AOA on it if you like.

Regarding autopilot,  I'm very happy with the STEC-30 - it's a basic autopilot but works like a champ with the GPSS and saves some panel space and weight by replacing the old Brittain turn coordinator.  To save money, I selected my King transponder w/ ADS-b out and PMA audio panel based on their plug and play capability with the items they replaced. The Bluetooth  functionality with the audio panel is nice. Without any big glass in the panel to display weather/traffic, I didn't bother with panel mount ads-b in.  Instead I just get it on the ipad from the Stratus2.  BTW, having an FS210 to transfer flight plans from ipad to the panel has proved to be a really wonderful thing.   

In the future (after finishing my IR and, hopefully, part 23 rewrite reducing costs), I'll dump the vac-driven backup AI for an electronic one and rip out the vac system entirely.  I'll also likely install a stormscope/strikefinder at the same time.  Then my crazy panel upgrade will feel complete 

 

[Marauder]

My panel redo was not quite a "no expense spared" upgrade, though it still made little sense in my old plane from a strictly economic perspective.  Instead I went for entry level modern equipment, tried to create a clean layout with good visibility and ergonomics from the left seat, and emphasized integration between components.

Don't rule out an Aspen PFD. If you want a reliable modern HSI (which you do), the one on the Aspen is fantastic, and includes two RMIs as a bonus.  The Aspen also negates the need to install GPSS (which you also want) as a separate item.  Thus the added cost isn't that great, and you can keep your "classy" 6 pack layout with the Aspen.  Also the Aspen plays very well in the sandbox with my GTN650 and STEC-30. And you can get AOA on it if you like.

Regarding autopilot,  I'm very happy with the STEC-30 - it's a basic autopilot but works like a champ with the GPSS and saves some panel space and weight by replacing the old Brittain turn coordinator.  To save money, I selected my King transponder w/ ADS-b out and PMA audio panel based on their plug and play capability with the items they replaced. The Bluetooth  functionality with the audio panel is nice. Without any big glass in the panel to display weather/traffic, I didn't bother with panel mount ads-b in.  Instead I just get it on the ipad from the Stratus2.  BTW, having an FS210 to transfer flight plans from ipad to the panel has proved to be a really wonderful thing.   

In the future (after finishing my IR and, hopefully, part 23 rewrite reducing costs), I'll dump the vac-driven backup AI for an electronic one and rip out the vac system entirely.  I'll also likely install a stormscope/strikefinder at the same time.  Then my crazy panel upgrade will feel complete 

 

Everytime I see pictures of your old panel I have a hard time believing that what was installed in your great looking plane. You would think you were looking at two different airplanes if just shown pictures of the panel and exterior.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

12 hours ago, Discus said:

O.K. Mooneyacs, tell me what your dream panel in an M-20 E would look like.  Only caviat is I don't want glass MFD's except for JPI.  I like steam.  Keeps things classy. Also, which autopilot would you get?

Is there a reason why you don't like glass other than you prefer steam? The reason I ask is because I owned an all steam plane for years (22 years). In fact, I didn't even have a GPS in the panel. I thought cutting edge was having a Garmin 295 on the yoke.

Like Bob, Dev and others -- once you go glass there is no going back! I am on going on 3.5 years with the glass panel. I'm just pissed I didn't do it sooner.

Here is your dream steam panel (circa 2001). Note the boat anchors in the panel (LORAN C, ADF).

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[PTK]

A cursory review of the literature is disappointing. It seems to support that glass panels do not improve safety.

According to the NTSB:  Glass cockpits can potentially improve safety but in actuality they have not.  Aircraft equipped with glass cockpits have a higher fatal accident rate than comparable aircraft equipped with so called "old-fashioned"  steam gauges.

Studies show a decrease in total accident rates but an increase in fatal accident rates. Overall studies don't support a "significant improvement in safety" for the glass cockpit group.

http://www.bestinflight.net/doclibrary/glass cockpit 100309.pdf

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/NTSB_Study_2010_Glass_Cockpits.aspx

I'd be interested in comments.

[Glenn]

I confess that my love of round gauges began more than 40 years ago when I took my first flying lesson. I thought that if I could learn to master (probably not the right verb) this, it would be a significant accomplishment.  They still speak to me of the romance that I originally associated with learning to fly.  Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I have no interest in video games, but keeping the needles centered while maintaining a basic scan is still enjoyable to me.  It is probably a generational thing.

Alternatively, maybe I'm just to cheap to go for the Garmin 500.

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

A cursory review of the literature is disappointing. It seems to support that glass panels do not improve safety.

According to the NTSB:  Glass cockpits can potentially improve safety but in actuality they have not.  Aircraft equipped with glass cockpits have a higher fatal accident rate than comparable aircraft equipped with so called "old-fashioned"  steam gauges.

Studies show a decrease in total accident rates but an increase in fatal accident rates. Overall studies don't support a "significant improvement in safety" for the glass cockpit group.

http://www.bestinflight.net/doclibrary/glass cockpit 100309.pdf

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/NTSB_Study_2010_Glass_Cockpits.aspx

I'd be interested in comments.

This will be fun Peter! An avionics neutral discussion. I think the first take away I get is from the NTSB report is the timing of the study. They looked at accidents between 2002 and 2006. I think this narrows it down (supported by your second article) to the G1000 crowd and those who may have MX-20 or MX-200 type glass panels. My beloved Aspens and your Garmin G500 were either just deploying or were just starting to. I wonder what the statistics would show if it were taken for the last 4 years.

As for glass, like any other power tool, you need to know how to use it properly. When I did my upgrade, it took me a solid 10 hours to consider myself proficient in the usage of it. And I am a guy who at the time flew my Mooney for 22 years prior to upgrading. I wonder how many accidents were caused by pilots trying to figure out their glass while in flight. On top of that is the proficiency requirement. Steam is simpler in design and function. Maintaining proficiency with glass does require practice. 

I think a second dynamic to look at it is the "bold" factor. I wonder if there is any correlation between the increased capability and an increase in taking on flight risk. Being able to see weather on your MX-200 or G1000 through a GDL-69 may have led to some pilots to try to take on weather risk they normally wouldn't have without it. I do know there has been a documented case of a weather related accident that the Air Safety Foundation posted. The pilot was attempting to navigate around a thunderstorm in Texas using dated FIS-B data.

The third factor I would be interested in seeing is the demographics of the planes and pilots these statistics were measured on. How many are pilots who bought more plane than they could handle? Or is there some indicator that these accidents were linked to a poor transition to glass? 

 

[Marauder]

24 minutes ago, Glenn said:

I confess that my love of round gauges began more than 40 years ago when I took my first flying lesson. I thought that if I could learn to master (probably not the right verb) this, it would be a significant accomplishment.  They still speak to me of the romance that I originally associated with learning to fly.  Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I have no interest in video games, but keeping the needles centered while maintaining a basic scan is still enjoyable to me.  It is probably a generational thing.

Alternatively, maybe I'm just to cheap to go for the Garmin 500.

Your video game comment got me thinking. I was a video junkie all the way back to the Atari days. I wonder...

[Bennett]

As much as I would like to swap out my old school steam gauges (sacred six) for a Garmin 600, I have to admit that this desire really is not a priority for me. In fact, since I flew for several years with a complete set of Dynon SkyView glass panels, I am not convinced that they have a great advantage. Hey, I'm an old timer, and I grew up without video games. I do have quite a few glass screens in my J, and I can't imagine being without them: GTN 750, GTN 650, AERA 796, and a iPad Mini 4 running ForeFlight. Oh, and a JPI 830, plus a couple of EMI Glass gauges. I am really hoping that there will be an EAA sponsored STC to allow for the Dynon SkyView panels to be installed in our Mooneys, but only if the STC would allow autopilot coupling - ether the KAP series, or Dynon's own servos which are far less expensive than the legacy Honeywell servos for the Bendix/King/Allied autopilots. Frankly, an iPad running ForeFlight, with Garmin's FlightStream 210 coupled via a GTN box, provides a huge amount of data, and when you run ForeFlight in split screen mode with the AHRS in the FlightSteam 210, you get an EFIS presentation (with SV) that rivals the Garmin 600. Yes, I know this combination is not truly equivalent to a Garmin 600, but look at the cost differential. Maybe, just maybe, Garmin will work with EAA to STC their G3X box for Mooneys. At the right price, I would install that as soon as it was available.

[DXB]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

Like Bob, Dev and others -- once you go glass there is no going back! I am on going on 3.5 years with the glass panel. I'm just pissed I didn't do it sooner.

Truth be told I haven't really gone glass yet- I'm not sure I've ever looked at my airspeed tape and rarely use the altitude tape (although i do love the altitude alerter function).  I always look to these two round gauges by default. I do want to try to use the tapes though for IR - it makes sense that your eye having to cover a narrower field would make the scan more efficient.  Or I could stick to the round gauges to have the old school experience.  Which is the better way to go for IR training?  I dunno.  I suspect folks favor the one they did.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Glenn said:

I felt the same way about round flight instruments when I redid the panel in my M-20F, I added the STEC 55X and the JPI 900 at the same time and have been very happy with it.  The GTX330es provides both traffic and ADS-B out. The GPS 496 provides XM-WX and music. 

I have owned this airplane for more than 30 years and this upgrade still makes me smile every time I fly it..  

 

How did you get approval for Beech yokes?

Clarence

[Glenn]

45 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

How did you get approval for Beech yokes?

Clarence

The yokes are aftermarket, Cygnet-Areospace,,they also provided an adapter to allow use of the original shaft.

[Discus]

I have been reading, and I think you guys may have convinced me to go aspen for HSI and ADI. Thinking of an Stech 30 for an auto pilot...  I originally wanted steam gauges because....'Murica.

[Yetti]

Having some time behind a G1000, but learned on steam.   Speed tapes are slower to understand. You have to Look at it read a number then know if that number is correct.  With dial gauges all you have to do is make sure the needle is in the proper place.  So now do a scan of all the instruments and engine.   It would take a lot more time.  Like I can't tell you what the fuel pressure should be, but I know the needle needs to be top left. and it needs to change when I turn the pump on and off. The only guage I know the numbers on are the tach and MP.  A needle will catch your eye if it fluctuates a tape will not. How you catch a mech fuel pump before it fails. 

[Bob_Belville]

8 hours ago, Yetti said:

Having some time behind a G1000, but learned on steam.   Speed tapes are slower to understand. You have to Look at it read a number then know if that number is correct.  With dial gauges all you have to do is make sure the needle is in the proper place.  So now do a scan of all the instruments and engine.   It would take a lot more time.  Like I can't tell you what the fuel pressure should be, but I know the needle needs to be top left. and it needs to change when I turn the pump on and off. The only guage I know the numbers on are the tach and MP.  A needle will catch your eye if it fluctuates a tape will not. How you catch a mech fuel pump before it fails. 

The (glass) JPI 930 displays FP both graphically and digitally. Ditto MAP RPM.

The 930's digital info alerted me that the voltage regulator had drifted down to 13.3 V instead of the desired 13.9. I don't know how you'd catch that with a little analog gauge.

Having flown 3 plus years with an Aspen I have come to like the airspeed and altitude tapes and I seldom look at the backup steam. The ASI has the same color markings as the analog plus a number of V speeds are labels on the tape. The pic shows Va & Vle which I look for as I slow on downwind. 

[Marauder]

I have been reading, and I think you guys may have convinced me to go aspen for HSI and ADI. Thinking of an Stech 30 for an auto pilot...  I originally wanted steam gauges because....'Murica.

I think you'll be happy with glass. Especially if you have a GPS. The Aspen GPSS roll steering on an STEC autopilot is awesome.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

Having some time behind a G1000, but learned on steam.   Speed tapes are slower to understand. You have to Look at it read a number then know if that number is correct.  With dial gauges all you have to do is make sure the needle is in the proper place.  So now do a scan of all the instruments and engine.   It would take a lot more time.  Like I can't tell you what the fuel pressure should be, but I know the needle needs to be top left. and it needs to change when I turn the pump on and off. The only guage I know the numbers on are the tach and MP.  A needle will catch your eye if it fluctuates a tape will not. How you catch a mech fuel pump before it fails. 

It took me a while to make the switch to the numerical ASI but once I did, it is as natural for me to process as the position on the steam ASI. Part of this transition was driven by going all digital. My mind looks for numbers now not position of a needle.

It was much easier for the altimeter. Only one number to interpret versus two needle positions.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Browncbr1]

if you have an aspen and don't update terrain or charts, but have a nav radio driving the HSI such as vor/Loc/GS, are you still legal to fly IFR or are you captive to having to pay for data updates?  is it even possible to have a kx155 drive the aspen?

 

also, if i have the brittain hsi converter box, is the aspen ap output compatible?

Edited July 8, 2016 by Browncbr1

[Bob_Belville]

24 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

if you have an aspen and don't update terrain or charts, but have a nav radio driving the HSI such as vor/Loc/GS, are you still legal to fly IFR or are you captive to having to pay for data updates?  is it even possible to have a kx155 drive the aspen?

 

also, if i have the brittain hsi converter box, is the aspen ap output compatible?

I have a single Aspen, no subscriptions. (No terrain or charts)

My NAV2, a  KX 155, is coupled to the Aspen and can be selected as the input which in turn can become GPSS to the STEC50. In the pic the Aspen is using the GPS to steer with the two (out of range) VORs as RMIs but any of the 3 could be selected for CDI.

Don't know about the Brittain interface to the Aspen.

[Bart Chilcott]

I do love my Aspens and now have full subscription for weather.    Having the ability to use the MFD (multi function display) for storm scope, maps, terrrain avoidance, synthetic vision and the ability to see other traffic via the Avidyne Traffic Avoidance (TAS605) has been great! The GPSS on the 430w is linked to my STEC and displays route of flight on the MFD. There is only one thing I would change if I could do it differently.  I would have used a JPI 830 or 930 like Bob had instead of my JPI700.  This fall, I will be adding a GTX345 to take the place of my GTX327 for ADSB.  Garmin has informed me that they will be offering an unlock feature that will allow the 345 to display ADSB traffic just as my Avidyne system does now.  However, I will keep my Avidyne TAS605 as well. 

[sailon]

I notice lots of STEC 50s in this thread.  I have an STEC 50 coupled to a GTN650.  I notice on RNAV approaches, that I am constantly overshooting (i.e., not turning fast enough) the 90 degree turn.  With GPSS steering, (forgot to mention I have Aspen glass), this puzzles me.  Is the STEC 50 or the GTN mis set?  I am entering the approach at 120 kts.  Too fast?  Thoughts?

A

[Bennett]

Having some time behind a G1000, but learned on steam.   Speed tapes are slower to understand. You have to Look at it read a number then know if that number is correct.  With dial gauges all you have to do is make sure the needle is in the proper place.  So now do a scan of all the instruments and engine.   It would take a lot more time.  Like I can't tell you what the fuel pressure should be, but I know the needle needs to be top left. and it needs to change when I turn the pump on and off. The only guage I know the numbers on are the tach and MP.  A needle will catch your eye if it fluctuates a tape will not. How you catch a mech fuel pump before it fails. 

You can have your cake and it it too. One of the Dynon SkyView screen options is to use the screen to present the "sacred six" layout instead of the EFIS layout. Looks fabulous. My preference for round gauges for the flight instruments directly relates to several years experience with the EFIS layout on my Dynon screens (before the Sacred Six option was available). I agree it is far easier to note a needle position than to read a tape.

So my "ideal" panel is what I have now:

GTN 750, GTN 650, AERA 796 in an AirGizmo panel mount with XM weather, remote Audio panel (3D), remote transponder controlled by the GTN 750, GDL-88 for ADS-B in and out, FlightSteam 210, for integration between the GTNs and a yoke mounted iPad Mini 4 running ForeFlight, a LifeSaver electrical AI with battery back-up, an electric back up vacuum pump in the tail cone, a 406 ELT with integrated GPS, a KAP 150 autopilot with a SAM Icarus GPSS, built in CO detector, JPI 830, CYA-100 AOA, and more. It's taken me a while to get to this point, and a whole lot of Dollars, but the pleasure of flying with all of this is "priceless". I'm 81 now, and am reasonably sure this is my last airplane, so why not? When my health slips, as it will inevitably will, I'll sell her and hopefully I will still be able to sail one more ocean adventure.

Some photos were taken before I replaced the 696 with the 796, and the GTN 650 replaced the 430. The Dynon D1 is gone as is the old traffic device on the glareshield.