Will Samurai Husky pass his checkride?

[Samurai Husky]

every plane i call on is sold... I really wish people would pull their add's from controller. 

Just a little disclosure, it might seem like i have 'get plane itis' but i have an ulterior motive. I have a really large tax burden this year and i really wanted to chip away at that by flying Pn  missions. I can just pay the government, but i figured the animals deserve it more and if i can gain experience out of it, then even better. The club explicitly prohibits animals in their rental planes, so that's out. So i have options and I'm not chasing anything. 

 

Anyway, back to the fun stuff:

I had been fixed on a J because everyone's instance early on that a ovation would be too much plane. Though to everyone's credit, the more i looked into it, the more i liked the fuel economy and found some models that had 900lb or more UL. 

I looked at the Ovation1's early on, but they are pretty pricey for what they are giving you. I would rather have a plane thats almost 10yrs newer and G1000 for 30-50k more. Unless there is something i am missing. 

 

 

[Hank]

My C has 970 lb. useful load, which is 660 lb. when I leave 1/2" space above the fuel for thermal expansion [important this time of year, we'll be pushing 100º all week].

[gsengle]

  On 7/21/2016 at 5:14 PM, Samurai Husky said:

every plane i call on is sold... I really wish people would pull their add's from controller. 

Just a little disclosure, it might seem like i have 'get plane itis' but i have an ulterior motive. I have a really large tax burden this year and i really wanted to chip away at that by flying Pn  missions. I can just pay the government, but i figured the animals deserve it more and if i can gain experience out of it, then even better. The club explicitly prohibits animals in their rental planes, so that's out. So i have options and I'm not chasing anything. 

 

Anyway, back to the fun stuff:

I had been fixed on a J because everyone's instance early on that a ovation would be too much plane. Though to everyone's credit, the more i looked into it, the more i liked the fuel economy and found some models that had 900lb or more UL. 

I looked at the Ovation1's early on, but they are pretty pricey for what they are giving you. I would rather have a plane thats almost 10yrs newer and G1000 for 30-50k more. Unless there is something i am missing. 

 

 

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Well, that sucks.  But at least planes are selling - I would have you move on a purchase sooner rather than later - I predict prices will firm up and become less of a buyers market soon - 2 factors, improving economy and medical reform bringing back a non trivial number of pilots.

I assume you've read this but just in case: http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20R Evaluation/M20R.htm  Makes the case why the Ovation (and at that time the O1) is a great Mooney, and not a bad airplane with some training for a high performance transition.  Has enough power that still does well to a pretty good altitude without the management/maintenance complexity of a turbo. No Ovation is cheap, but I still think the early ones are great values - especially if you want to avoid the whole G1000 can't upgrade problem.

Buy an early one, and then go Aspen or G500 if you still really want glass - but use the standard instruments to get your instrument rating - the ability to visualize what is going on without the big screen is priceless imho.  Glancing at Controller, there can be a $100,000 gap between the newer glass ones and the early ones - and you get pretty much THE SAME CAPABILITY or more in the case of WAAS.

How do you beat something like this: http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1435859/2001-mooney-m20r-ovation3

Greg

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Samurai Husky]

ah the early ones arnt turbo; Well that makes some sense.

How are the mooeny turbos when it comes to maintenance? In the cirrus world they tend to be pricey because of having to replace the exhaust, turbo rebuilds, eating up cylinders etc. Overall i think i came to the conclusion that I dont need a turbo and would actually prefer not to have one because of the added maintenance, but if the right plane at the right price comes around then i wont ignore it. I might have asked that already at some point, but i cant ask enough. 

Oh and in general, i do not like the aspin's. Some people like Macs, Some like PC's, I like Garmin or Avadyne.

 

Edited July 21, 2016 by Samurai Husky

[gsengle]

No, none of em are Turbo... I was saying vis a vis say a K or M

That's why I got an Ovation, lots of power but simple no turbo. No cowl flaps either, and no cooling problems. Runs great lean of peak. Can still get you up high.

All turbos cost more to maintain, Mooney cirrus or whatever.

I agree on aspen, so do a g500 some day!

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[carusoam]

Go Long Body,

Lots o room for doggy crates.

Fly around at 12,500 and below to avoid the FAA defined O2 challenges.

Getting a feel for one Mooney buys you most of the experience of the others.  They all share the same wing (sort of).  The Marvelous wing is fast and efficient but also is responsible for the landing challenges.  Speed control is the key.

once you gain the experience of the NA Mooney, add on the higher HP and or the benefits of turbo C or N.

By starting with a short or mid body, your decision making will appear to be more conservative, than jumping directly into a fire breathing Rocket or Acclaim.

of course the experience required to fly a Long Body accross the country includes picking up the IR.  It can be done without the IR, but that looks less conservative.

Changing planes for some people is incredibly expensive. For others, not so much.  When spread out over decades, it isn't even partially noticeable.

Summary: Being a Mooney pilot, makes you a more pleasant person to be around. 

Best regards,

-a-

[Danb]

Sammy:  For an idea on maintenance for a turbo, I have had my Bravo since new or almost new 50 hours, just out of annual, all r/m and annuals done at MSC'S average yearly annual $4,000, had one small crack in a Turbo charger at 400 along with a small crack in the exhaust. I pay strict attention to temps both cold and hot. Rarely ever see 400* on the cyl's, just came home from a 2500 mile trip and I touched 405* on cyc 3 for a couple minutes climbing through 16,000 ft. basically I don't think the maintenance is to bad on these big bad boys, just treat them with TLC. Now they do like gas, but its still a legit 200 knot machine, again there are no bad Mooney models.  Good luck on your quest for a new bird.

[carusoam]

Maintaining CHT, EGT, and TIT are the key to minimizing maintenance costs.  Some people choose economics over speed.  Others choose speed knowing a set of cylinders will be sacrificed for the cause.

OH costs are additional when the time comes.  Continental generously post the FOH prices for both the IO550 and the TNIO550.  The difference is clearly stated.

Accidentally not controlling these temperatures defines the words expensive and surprise.  It is really easy to push the throttle in.  More of a challenge to hold it back.

Best regards,

-a-

[gsengle]

Which is why the Ovation commands a premium over most Bravos - cheaper to operate and maintain and just as much performance below 10k msl

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[Samurai Husky]

so just so that i can stop being confused; We are no suggesting that i get a Ovation or Ovation2 over a J.... 

[gsengle]

Yes I am. I am suggesting an early Ovation probably pre 1999.

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[chrisk]

  On 7/21/2016 at 6:58 PM, Danb said:

Sammy:  For an idea on maintenance for a turbo, I have had my Bravo since new or almost new 50 hours, just out of annual, all r/m and annuals done at MSC'S average yearly annual $4,000, had one small crack in a Turbo charger at 400 along with a small crack in the exhaust. I pay strict attention to temps both cold and hot. Rarely ever see 400* on the cyl's, just came home from a 2500 mile trip and I touched 405* on cyc 3 for a couple minutes climbing through 16,000 ft. basically I don't think the maintenance is to bad on these big bad boys, just treat them with TLC. Now they do like gas, but its still a legit 200 knot machine, again there are no bad Mooney models.  Good luck on your quest for a new bird.

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Dan,

I have a 231 for 300+ hours. My maintenance experience has been similar.  There are added costs with a turbo,but they have not been that significant.   An example is the pressurized mags probably need more maintenance than the non-pressurized versions,  unless of course you are flying you NA Mooney up high (where the lack of pressurization might result in arcing).     --The world is a trade off.

I think the big maintenance expense will come when it is time to overhaul.  In particular, the M20M has a reputation for high overhaul cost.  If memory serves me, some where in the $60K range.

[Danb]

Couldn't agree more chris

 

[Samurai Husky]

  On 7/21/2016 at 9:14 PM, chrisk said:

.  If memory serves me, some where in the $60K range.

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OMG  I've seen twins for less.

[gsengle]

That's why the IO550 in the ovation makes a lot of sense....

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[chrisk]

I couldn't help it. I had to look up the prices for overhauling a  Lycoming TIO-540-AF1B which is  used in the M20M (aka Bravo).  I can't help it because I would really like a Bravo, but the rational side takes over when I look at the overhaul price.

http://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/TLEngineDetail.asp?catID=33&prodID=10267

 

New:  $96,554

Rebuilt: $64,017

Overhauled: $58,017

 

By contrast the engine in an Ovation (I think a Continental IO550G) is around $50K new and $40K rebuilt.

[Hank]

Husky--

A little clarity:  all Mooney models beginning with "L" are long bodies. Bravo is an M, and turbo just like the K. R = Ovation (1, 2 & 3); S = Eagle; all normally aspirated. K (231, 252, 262, Encore and Rocket) and Bravo are turbo, as are Acclaims. You can tell a long body by the super long cowling covering the 6-cylinder engine, the nose up attitude on the ground, and the divided back window on both sides where it goes across a structural steel frame piece.

All models alphabetically through E are short bodies; only E models are fuel injected with 200 hp, the others (like my C) have 180 hp and carburetors. You can tell us by looking in the window while parked, the front seats touch the back seats.

Mid-bodies are F through K; the Ks are all turbo'ed; only the Gs are carbed, the rest are injected. Some Fs have aftermarket TurboNormalizers, and a few Fs have aftermarket TurboChargers.

Any of these will do well, but many are suggesting to avoid the turbo models until you get some experience flying around with an Instrument Rating. But some R / Ovation owners are suggesting you can move directly into one of them. Just get one without the G1000, since upgrading them to WAAS is apparently not on Garmin's To Do list at all . . . Sadly . . .

Whatever you do, whichever brand you buy, have a mechanic who knows the type do a thorough Pre-Purchase Inspection.

in the meantime, stay sharp and wow the DPE!

[Samurai Husky]

I called up Savvy to handle the pre-buy; they are more knowledgeable about mechanics and service centers than i am.

I gave the 2 planes to look at; 1 a SR22 of which the people responded and are willing to negotiate http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1414073/2007-cirrus-sr22-g3-turbo,

the other a mooney Ovation2 that already has WAAS; The Mooney People havent contacted me back yet on what the price is, may guess is over budget because there are only 300TT on it. http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1439587/2008-mooney-m20r-ovation2-gx

Im taking everyones advice and ignoring all the non waas G1000's since its like a $30k conversion. Still debating the rest of the options since i have been told more than once that its not worth the money to update avionics in a plane.

For non G1000's i havent really dug in yet. I have to see whats available. 

[gsengle]

It's an impossible conversion.

Aren't you jumping ahead if you haven't picked a type yet?

And you haven't flown an Ovation yet. Might love it might hate it...

There are tons of planes of both types out there, and don't discount high time planes just factor in overhaul costs. It's nice to do the overhaul yourself and then control the quality and the break in etc.

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[Samurai Husky]

What do you mean impossible? I have seen G1000 Ovations with GFC700's that have WAAS? Whats impossible about it? 

Im not discounting any high hour planes, in fact i would rather have a high time plane and do a OH in 2 years or so, but the plane has to be priced accordingly. I am doing all of the math to make sure that what i am looking at is the right thing. 

I havnt really rejected any idea yet. Though i am trying to narrow things down. I feel like I could make a offer on a ovation fly out there and see if i like it, if not then no harm. But i dont want to do that to someone unless i am serious. If i fly one and fall in love, then at least i have the process started. 

As for a type goes; The ovation seemed to meet all of the mission criteria the best.

Mission budget: No more than 300k OTD period. Its my red line, but unlike some presidents i mean it.  

1. Can make it 650nm at full load with reserves

2. Has a UL of 900# or more

3. Doesnt have a crazy expensive OH cost and decent fuel eco. (looking at you bravo)

4. Can get from KPAO>KFFZ in 4hrs or less (~650nm) This is more of a want not a need. 

5. Has glass - this is a want, nuff said

So based on that it could mean a lot of mooneys. A 20R, 20J, 20K, S, etc. But i have taken to heart what everyone here has said about 'time in type' and what I should and shouldnt be looking at so that i am not in over my head. Like, i probably wouldnt look at a Acclaim or Ovation 3, i think its simply too much plane for me to rodeo at this point same goes for a missle or Rocket. Maybe thats a 'next' plane idea.

Im going to spend some more time tonight look at the other options. But at least i am pretty set on either a Mooney or a Cirrus. I just want to narrow things down a little more.

 

BTW, my training plane is broke again.... I had to spend all morning calling people asking them to move around so that i can still do the club check ride on monday. This is why i dont want to rent

[gsengle]

Ok not impossible I believe if you're willing to rip out one autopilot and put in a Garmin at a HUGE cost... I seem to recall north of 70k, if it is legal at all...

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[gsengle]

What did you think of the plane I posted in my previous post from Colorado?

Already has O3 upgrade, well below budget, even assuming an overhaul in a couple of years...

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[Samurai Husky]

According to this site there was a factory option to have the GFC700 installed instead of the STEC55X; So there are 'some' planes out there that have the GFC700; There was an additional charge of $5000 to enable the WAAS feature. All in i think someone said it was about 60k or something like that. I would have to pull up the post again from a few years ago. 

But i agree with you, Im not going to spend $65k on a plane that doesnt have it, especially for just WAAS. I would spend $65k redoing an entire panel if the cost of the plane still kept me under my max price.

For the Colorado plane there are some red flags; 1. needed a TOH at <1000hrs; 2. it was converted to a O3 from a O2,.... Though i dont know if that madders or not, i dont know whats involved for the conversion. Im not to found of the auto pilot, im more of a STEC or Garmin person, but i never used it so i really cant comment.

I figure i would want to put in a G500; I would (at a latter date) put in a 750/650 combo to replace the 530/430. In general though once you put that stuff in, you are already in a different pricing territory.

[211º]

  On 7/21/2016 at 6:45 PM, carusoam said:

Summary: Being a Mooney pilot, makes you a more pleasant person to be around.

-a-

At first I thought that it was the Zig Ziglar tapes, but I now think you are correct. Love the Mooney. Quite happy that I didn't go for the RV.

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[carusoam]

Ideas...

(1) A top OH is not a red flag is it?  It is a sign of how the plane was used.  Some owners prefer to fly fast as their priority. Really fast can be accomplished using up a set of cylinders.  15AMUs on a 500AMU plane to go really fast... (Good for somebody with a higher income than me)

(2) A long body is not recommended for training.  Sam, your basic training is coming to an end.  You will have enough experience to wisely select which Mooney meets your requirements.

(3) Expect a fair amount of transition training will be required by you and your insurance company.  Your first year of insurance will be more than you want to pay.  A high powered LB probably won't be a lot of fun to fly until you become comfortable with all of the systems, V speeds, and stall speeds.  The fun really comes when all this stuff gets mastered.

(4) isn't it early in the discussion to talk about WAAS issues and prices when you don't have the IR to make any value out of it?

I like beating up on big G when they stand in the way of a Mooney pilot getting a WAAS update that has been promised.  Without the WAAS hardware,  the IR pilots are unable to execute a few types of modern approaches.

Without having an IR, the argument of how expensive a WAAS upgrade is...   Is moot?

(5) Both Cirrus 20 and 22 share the same engines that are used in Mooneys.  Every time you see a video of Cirrus chute pull, Mooney pilots watch wanting to know if there is something about the engine not working properly.  Is there something to be learned...  Early IO550 installations had issues with the oil cooler spewing oil out of a crack.  

(6) Are you interested in a plane that flies fast and efficiently or are you still swayed by the look of fancy electronics and a chute handle?

(7) I can add WAAS capability to my O1 by installing a used G430W. All in 5-6AMU.  Few people would be interested if I were to post a photo of that.  Even if a splurged and added a 2AMU GPSS box to go with it. I can't add a chute handle. I train to lower the nose land straight ahead.  We all discuss various ways of keeping enough fuel in the tanks. Mr. Monroy has made a really wise business argument out of it.

(8) you sound like you want a new Ovation at used Ovation prices (I would too).

(9) The solution to your problem is simply....

   - get a LB that is nearly run-out with an ancient (20 year old) instrument panel.

   - get transition training.   Go fly.

   - add stuff when you and your wallet are ready. (Every year at tax time)

  - get IR

  - fly some dogs around.

  - compete in the Panel Wars competition.  (Don Kaye has set an interesting bar for West coast LBs, Steven is completing a high bar O project on the East coast.)

  - post a video of a WAAS approach in your plane with a trio Go-pros.  Post a nasty-gram to Big G, a nice photo of a complete Avidyne panel in your O should work pretty well.  Use your best MS candor for this.

(10) set some goals that go out farther than - get my PPL.

(11) Like everything else,  the IR is a license to learn.  You don't get measured by what you start.  The important part is what you finish.  The hard part is, there is no end to acquiring useful experience...  Don't be in a rush to get to the end.

(12) acquiring experiences like flying a high wing low powered airplane with draggy struts is still beneficial.

(13) spending a cash horde because it is beneficial to your tax situation adds additional pressure to your plan.  Get good financial advice to make sure you are doing it properly.  

(14) fly to a local Mooney fly-in.

(15) fly to KOSH.

(16) Get some formation training.

(17) Check in with the rest of your life forces.  There may be some other important things like family, house, work, dogs...

There is no rush.  A measured pace, following a plan that gets updated along the way, works wonders.

Any of this sound familiar?

Best regards,

-a-