Gear up

[steingar]

15 hours ago, takair said:

I think it can even happen with the j-bar.  While it is huge and obvious, I don't think it would pass the modern human factors test.  The bar is UP when the gear is DOWN.  After almost 20 years I still prefer the light as the more intuitive way to verify gear position.   Maybe it's just my brain...

I think its your brain.  I don't even look at the light, I look at the J-bar.

[steingar]

15 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

I landed with the gear up once because I had to. I can tell you that once you get low and slow it doesn't feel much different without the gear. And that loud gear horn just becomes background noise pretty quickly. 

I dunno, I don think you get to talk about accidental gear ups.  Yours was on purpose due to no fault of your own.  Mine is a pretty different beast with the gear up.  Hard to get down to flap speed without it.

[M20F]

15 hours ago, takair said:

I think it can even happen with the j-bar.  While it is huge and obvious, I don't think it would pass the modern human factors test.  The bar is UP when the gear is DOWN.  After almost 20 years I still prefer the light as the more intuitive way to verify gear position.  

The green light on a J-Bar Mooney can give a false positive, the only thing I trust is tugging the handle straight down to make sure it is in and locked.  Never landed gear up in a Mooney or any other plane but have come close a few times.

[cnoe]

15 hours ago, takair said: I think it can even happen with the j-bar.  While it is huge and obvious, I don't think it would pass the modern human factors test.  The bar is UP when the gear is DOWN.  After almost 20 years I still prefer the light as the more intuitive way to verify gear position.   Maybe it's just my brain...

I think its your brain.  I don't even look at the light, I look at the J-bar.

I find nothing about the J-bar to be intuitive, and a couple of times I found my mind sorting it out on approach. Maybe it's just me but I think the label by the gear switch on my latest plane is more definitive.

I also have a rule to "silence the warning horn". Never let the thing blare except when practicing slow flight at altitude.

A verbal warning system would be a great addition but on flights when she's aboard my lovely wife fills that role automatically every time a warning horn chirps.

And still I realize I'm not immune to mistakes.

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Had some work done at the MSC at TTD some time ago.  He told me about two partners that owned a Mooney.  One of them landed gear up.  Took a couple months to get the plane fixed.  The other partner took it out on its maiden flight... and landed gear up.

Stuff happens.

Sounds like they make for good partners. Share the same philosophy.

[DXB]

When I first got my Mooney, a J bar plane and my first complex aircraft experience, I was so afraid of not being able to slow down that I would drop gear and do the before landing check at 5 miles out.  This made my plane fly kinda like my old trainer and let me just focus on the pattern entry and landing rather than wrestling the J bar.  Pretty much no way I could forget the gear under these circumstances. So as an uptight, nervous <100hr pilot, a J bar gear up seemed like an impossibility. 

Fast forward 150 hours - I have a wider zone of comfort with my plane across diverse power settings and configurations, and I'm still rapidly improving. In particular I manage speed more intuitively and effectively. So now I often wait until  abeam the numbers in the pattern to slow down and drop the gear.  However if the field is very busy, or I'm having trouble seeing an unfamiliar field or other traffic, I still sometimes drop the gear 5 miles out just to reduce my workload and let me focus on fewer things as a get closer.

So I would say that I'm much more likely to have a gear up now than when I first got the plane for two reasons:  (1) I can now manage speed more unconsciously, so the light bulb that something is wrong in how the plane is handling might not trigger on final  (2) I don't do things the same every time- I let the situation and my comfort level on a particular day dictate when I drop the gear- so I'm much more likely to forget it entirely.

I'm not sure this is bad per se, nor would i exactly equate it with the complacency that can come with increasing experience. But is does require that I develop new habits to offset the added potential for error.   E.g. never touching the flaps before dropping the gear, always repeating before landing check on final.

 

[Hank]

All of my landings are the same. I'm at pattern altitude by 3nm out, and enter downwind between 90-100 mph with Flaps out. Then drop gear near the numbers and start down. I check gear on base and the floor indicator on final. 

[47U]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

I think its your brain.  I don't even look at the light, I look at the J-bar.

On my C, the gear warning switch is adjusted such that the light can go red if you pull down hard on the handle after the gear is locked down.  Pulling down won't unlock the gear without pushing the button, but it has trained me to pull down on the handle after seating in the lock to make sure it's all the way in, then push it back up again to turn the lights from red to green.  

I discovered this when the horn started blaring when I retarted the throttle abeam the numbers on downwind in the pattern.  I had all of 25 hours in the airplane and 20 of that was cross country.  My wife, on her first ride in the Mooney, was unimpressed that I had let the warning horm start blaring at all.    

While solo, I did some further exploration of exactly what it takes to result in a locked gear.  I found that I could get the handle into the lock, but below the pin.  The handle looked like it was seated, but the red light indicated it was not.  This condition is probably the origination of the thumbnail test.  

[Browncbr1]

I think everyone is missing the point.  If anyone finds that they either forgot their gear or bounced causing prop strike, just pull everything back, turn master off, and just curse as loud as you can while  sliding down the runway.     Live to tell the story

[Danb]

Except for the sadness,there is a lot of knowledge contained within this thread. I was going to add a few items  then decided to accept there is some good that comes from the extreme grief . RIP.

[DXB]

I'm curious to know how commonly an inadvertent gear up causes a pilot to attempt a go around after the prop strikes.  It is intrinsically a split second instinctive decision, not a carefully considered one. And if you've put yourself in that situation, you're not at your best that day anyway to make quick decisions under stress.

Also this situation could actually represent multiple sequences of events from the pilot's perspective:

1. realizing forgot the gear when sinking in the flare -> start advancing throttle for go around, but it's too late -> prop strikes at high power -> disaster

2. hear abnormal noise when sinking in the flare -> still no realization of having forgotten the gear -> something's wrong but I dont know what! -> try to go around -> disaster

3. hear abnormal noise in the flare -> realize forgot the gear -> try to go around anyway to save the belly -> disaster.

I think there's an assumption here that we are dealing with #3. In a calm and rationale state of mind,  I think most of us would do the right thing in this case, particularly with the forethought provided by this thread.  But under stress it's still a bit unpredictable.  In #1 and #2, I can't predict at all, but I suspect it might end badly for me.  These are split second decisions where it's tough to develop the mental hard wiring necessary in advance.  And it is drilled into us in training to go around if something doesnt seem quite right, so our bias is already in this direction.

 

[takair]

20 hours ago, DXB said:

I'm curious to know how commonly an inadvertent gear up causes a pilot to attempt a go around after the prop strikes.  It is intrinsically a split second instinctive decision, not a carefully considered one. And if you've put yourself in that situation, you're not at your best that day anyway to make quick decisions under stress.

Also this situation could actually represent multiple sequences of events from the pilot's perspective:

1. realizing forgot the gear when sinking in the flare -> start advancing throttle for go around, but it's too late -> prop strikes at high power -> disaster

2. hear abnormal noise when sinking in the flare -> still no realization of having forgotten the gear -> something's wrong but I dont know what! -> try to go around -> disaster

3. hear abnormal noise in the flare -> realize forgot the gear -> try to go around anyway to save the belly -> disaster.

I think there's an assumption here that we are dealing with #3. In a calm and rationale state of mind,  I think most of us would do the right thing in this case, particularly with the forethought provided by this thread.  But under stress it's still a bit unpredictable.  In #1 and #2, I can't predict at all, but I suspect it might end badly for me.  These are split second decisions where it's tough to develop the mental hard wiring necessary in advance.  And it is drilled into us in training to go around if something doesnt seem quite right, so our bias is already in this direction.

 

Good analysis.  I think there are a couple of other outcomes to consider.  I suspect that in many, if not most cases, even if you push full power, it's too late and the aircraft will continue to settle.  In another case, you may actually do little enough damage that the aircraft is flyable.  I know this has occurred, and you may get into the hangar without anybody ever knowing.  Also, keep in mind the case of the porpoise on landing.  The Mooney is prone to this and the outcome could be similar.  

[Guest]

This product from Electronics International would work as a "bitching Betty"

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/ei-av-17.html

Clarence

[Bob - S50]

I made a suggestion to a Garmin Rep at the aviation trade show a couple years ago, maybe I need to make it to Trek.

For those of us with a GTN650/750, the unit already has voice capability.  You just have to pay to turn on the ground proximity warning system.  Why not, in the interest of safety, at the owner's option, have a free configuration that will allow the system to say "Check gear down" at some chosen altitude in the range of 100 - 500 AGL?

[Andy95W]

My Garmin portable GPS says "Five Hundred" to me at 500 AGL through my headset. I use that as my prompt to say back to it "500, green light". So far, so good and very inexpensive. Displays traffic and weather, too. 

[Hector]

My Garmin portable GPS says "Five Hundred" to me at 500 AGL through my headset. I use that as my prompt to say back to it "500, green light". So far, so good and very inexpensive. Displays traffic and weather, too. 

This! I do the same.

[Bob_Belville]

Distractions at the right/wrong moment can contribute to the interruption/abandonment of a mental/written check list. I used to think that I would notice the reduced drag. Y'all be careful out there!

I have this system. It works great. Unless the CB is pulled to quiet false alarms. 

http://www.flyingsafer.com/landing-gear-warning-systems.html

[mike_elliott]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 6:07 PM, carusoam said:

It's the way the brain works. Or doesn't work.

you see the J bar, and it's not where it's supposed to be... But, it doesn't completely register... Next thing through your busy mind is...  Man, I should have seen the green light to go with that.

The J bar does have a few advantages.

Best regards,

-a-

Anthony, you are spot on about the brain not registering correctly all the time. A distraction, you see the j bar, all is well is what is registered, not what is reality. There have been way too many gear ups in manual gear mooneys, on par with electric I have heard from "the guy" who fixes a great many of them, indicating it has to be pilot error.

The J bars advantage is not in its position reporting to the brain, but in its gentle nature with one's wallet.

[Hank]

Habit patterns and muscle memory are what saves all of us, and are why it is so important to establish correct habits. I scared the bejeezus out of myself Saturday, thinking in the flare that I had forgotten to put them down. A quick panic check of the green light and floor made me relax and finish the landing. I just could not remember dropping the gear, but I had done so. For winds variable at 3, it just seemed like I was floating an awful lot . . . but sometimes that happens.

I ALWAYS drop gear on downwind, abeam my landing point. I ALWAYS wait for the thump and check the green light. I ALWAYS check the green light on base. I ALWAYS check the floor indicator on final. But I didn't remember doing any of that, and at 5' agl, its' a bad feeling. I may have ballooned a little bit while confirming.

[1964-M20E]

I have only had two instances where the tower asked to confirm down and locked.  Once going to Talladega for the race and sometimes landing at Ft Stewart KLHW

 

Maybe we can start a trend and announce to the tower gear down and locked?  Not sure how ATC would receive it?  I announce it to myself  and passenger multiple times during the final approach.  I have even told my wife if she does not hear me say that she has full permission to b$%^& at me to no end she has asked why I say it so many times.  I told her if I forget that we have a very bad day.

 

I'm not sure how some of the 6 cylinders or turbocharged planes behave but whit the NA IO360s my opinion is for the GUMPS check the U is the most important you can forget all the others and things will tend to work themselves out but forgetting the U makes for a bad day and months ahead.

 

 

 

 

[N601RX]

My experience has been that all the Military controllers in this area will say "verify gear down and locked". 

[takair]

3 hours ago, N601RX said:

My experience has been that all the Military controllers in this area will say "verify gear down and locked". 

I wonder why this simple reminder is not used by civilian towers?

[kpaul]

6 hours ago, N601RX said:

My experience has been that all the Military controllers in this area will say "verify gear down and locked". 

Yep, it is a requirement for Air Force pilots to make a 'gear down' call.  With out it the tower will generally not give the clearance or at the very least ask to verify the gear is down while giving the clearance.  It has become such a habit for me that I give the gear down call to civilian towers even in my Mooney.  In my experience the civilian towers just ignore the call. 

[HRM]

56 minutes ago, kpaul said:

Yep, it is a requirement for Air Force pilots to make a 'gear down' call.  With out it the tower will generally not give the clearance or at the very least ask to verify the gear is down while giving the clearance.  It has become such a habit for me that I give the gear down call to civilian towers even in my Mooney.  In my experience the civilian towers just ignore the call. 

Let's see, multi-million $ aircraft, possibly billion--yes, I could see why they would want to verify with a 20-something pilot 

[wiguy]

 Back in the day many/most/all(?) military tactical type A/C were very lacking with any gear & take-off warning systems. For the most part it was up to you to remember. That call to tower was just another link in the chain to avoid a mishap.

 

  I think it was an EA-6B 'Prowler' that tried to take-off at North Island NAS with the flaps up, didn't make it. Flap deployment also shifted the elevator to allow more control movement at the slower speeds. As I recall, part of the cause was attributed to 'distractions' on taxi-out. Of course, distractions on taxi-out are the norm in many cases.