Ramp checked...

[N201MKTurbo]

These off border check points are an admission by the government that the border is not secure.

I don't think these checkpoints are actually intended to catch anything. Everybody knows where they are. I think they are there to deny the use of the best roads to human and drug smugglers.

There are a lot of human rights advocates that think the checkpoints are cruel because it forces immigrants to walk and die in the hot deserts. The fact is they volunteer to do that, so they take their own risk.

[1964-M20E]

42 minutes ago, CCowboy said:

We drive to southern AZ a few times a year to check on our retired horses that are out to pasture.  Just north of where the pasture is is a CBP checkpoint on I-19 about 20 miles north of the Mexico border.  There is significant technology there, facial recognition cameras going both directions.  You must stop, they do a brief interview while looking into your vehicle and the drug sniffing puppy dog checks out the car.  It has never been an issue for us, but this shows the power of CBP to "search" you without probable cause.  What happened to Paul is the air side analogy to this checkpoint.   I am not saying this is right or wrong, just a sign of the times we live in.

I have never been a fan of the indiscriminate stops by the authorities even though the supreme court said stopping everyone was legal. i.e DUI check point, boarder check point etc.  I consider these unconstitutional because there was no probable cause to question you at any level JMHO.  I think selecting someone specifically for a stop with probable cause is more effective. 

I would like to add that from an LEO perspective once a stop has been initiated, with probable cause, looking into windows and having a dog smell around a vehicle is permissible and not considered a search under the 4th amendment.  Climbing on or in the vehicle by the dog or the officer in my opinion is questionable.  Moving things, opening boxes or compartments is not legal and is a search under the 4th amendment and needs either permission or a warrant.  There are hours of classes regarding legal searches, pat down etc.  Like wise the officer cannot detain you for an unreasonable amount of time.  What is unreasonable?  That is up to the judge if it goes to that level but again my opinion is the amount of time it takes the officer to conduct the business for which you were stopped i.e speeding 10 to 15 minutes to run license, insurance checks and write a ticket if he is so inclined.

[Shadrach]

On February 10, 2016 at 3:26 PM, gsxrpilot said:

They asked if they could "take a look in the plane?" This was after they asked about weapons or drugs. I asked how long it would take and they replied it would be just a couple of minutes. They also didn't have a dog with them. I would have been much less likely to consent willingly to a dog climbing through the plane.

As it was, they looked in the baggage door and asked about my duffel which I then removed from the plane and offered to them. They never got in the plane or even up on the wing walk.

To be honest though, they always say that.

They never say...

"First we're going to start off asking politely as if we're doing you a favor to help you clear your good name of anything suspicious. If you seem reluctant, we'll then play on your sense innocence, I mean you don't have anything to hide, right?...so what's the problem? After you're  convinced that we really just want a peak, we'll spend the next hour and half tearing your vehicle apart looking for contraband. When we don't find it, we'll pretty much leave it in a heap and tell you that you're free to go."

As a youth in the late 90's I was foolish enough to wear my hair long. I was far more straight edge than many of my clean cut friends. My "hair" landed me by the side the Capital beltway in handcuffs (for their safety) after I agreed to a courtesy search at 1:00AM on a Tuesday. I sat on the guard rail while 7 of Montgomery County's finest tore apart a 14 year old Mercedes that I had bought as a parts car and rejuvenated.   

I say with every fiber of my being that even today, I would not piss on any of those steaming piles of excrement if they were burning in front of me. Flat top Gestapo... none of them were worthy of the badge.

But I'm sure it was an isolated incident.

I wish this was my only bad cop(s) story.

[Tony Armour]

Why would a weapon be contraband  ? Hell, search all you want....the weapon will be on me outside the airplane :-)

Last month when we drove a Viper back from Ca. I went thru those stop points near the border. Office bending down looking in and asks "is there anyone else in the vehicle ?" I look over at my wife and look back at him " no, it's just us two" :-) 

All were pretty cool guys doing their job. One even started a conversation about the car. Something I didn't know about, we don't have those in N. Georgia :-)

[M20F]

11 hours ago, Tony Armour said:

All were pretty cool guys doing their job. One even started a conversation about the car. Something I didn't know about, we don't have those in N. Georgia :-)

My experience has been like Tony's and others voicing this sort of description.  It seems the gamut runs either no issues, or people having multiple unpleasent issues with LEO.  It makes one ask the question why some individuals have no issues, but others seem to have repeated issues....

[MyNameIsNobody]

So having a "Weapon" in the plane is considered contraband?  This whole scenario IS due to American Citizens that choose to participate in illegal drug use.  Our freedoms are being taken/forfeited because there are people that use illegal drugs.  As long as those people use these drugs there will be people looking to make/grow/transport/sell them in the U.S.

I have ZERO tolerance for the people that use these drugs.  THEY are the problem.  Everybody else whether enforcing or selling are there because of the user.  Get rid of the demand/user you have no problem.

Now, if you want to make it legal.  Tax it.  Provide "help" for the users because they wish to participate.  Strictly enforce laws regarding vehicle operation/crime as a result of their use/addiction...THAT is a different story.  We have a booming LEO and Prison business in the U.S. Because of laws and people that choose to break the law.  I save my anger for them (user/lawbreakers).

No anger for the individuals enforcing the laws.  Just doing their job.  You look, walk act like a duck...Your a duck until proven not a duck.  Anger should be for the lawmakers/users/enablers.

That said I will NOT cede my individual rights to anybody.  Polite?  Yes.  Going through my vehicle without a warrant?  NOPE.

[steingar]

5 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

I have ZERO tolerance for the people that use these drugs.  THEY are the problem.  Everybody else whether enforcing or selling are there because of the user.  Get rid of the demand/user you have no problem.

Fermentation's as old as civilization, I personally think it was the force the trove humans from a hunter-gatherer existence to grain monoculture.  Poppies have been cultivated since antiquity.  Coca leaves were used by Mesoamericans for thousands of years before Europeans ever arrived.  Hell, they were originally in Coca-cola, which is named eponymously.

The desire for substances of this kind is part and parcel of the human condition.  That's why the War on Drugs hasn't worked and never will.

[MyNameIsNobody]

21 minutes ago, daver328 said:

Just curious. If I have a CC permit, fly over states who recognize my state's concealed carry permit, and I fly to non airline airports ... I am legal to carry in the aircraft?

There is a chart somewhere that shows states that have reciprocal acknowledgement of CC permits.  I personally wouldn't mess with that.  Firearms are unloaded/cased/mags empty and separate from ammunition.

The nuances of local laws on transport of firearms are one of many reasons NOT to consent to access of your home/vehicle/body for any search.

[MyNameIsNobody]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Fermentation's as old as civilization, I personally think it was the force the trove humans from a hunter-gatherer existence to grain monoculture.  Poppies have been cultivated since antiquity.  Coca leaves were used by Mesoamericans for thousands of years before Europeans ever arrived.  Hell, they were originally in Coca-cola, which is named eponymously.

The desire for substances of this kind is part and parcel of the human condition.  That's why the War on Drugs hasn't worked and never will.

Thanks for the history lesson.  I fully understand and appreciate the desire by a given percentage of the population to use/abuse illicit drugs.  We have some heavy reporting of opioids overdose/death due to the tightening of prescriptions.

I could not agree more that the "War on Drugs" is a failure.  What is your point?  What do you propose change?  More of the same?

[steingar]

22 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Thanks for the history lesson.  I fully understand and appreciate the desire by a given percentage of the population to use/abuse illicit drugs.  We have some heavy reporting of opioids overdose/death due to the tightening of prescriptions.

Yes, the level of prescription drug death in the US is alarming at best.  Unfortunately, the additive effects of opioids and alcohol are to blame.

22 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

I could not agree more that the "War on Drugs" is a failure.  What is your point?  What do you propose change?  More of the same?

I prefer societal tolerance if not outright legalization.  I like Portugal's approach.  Folks are going to use these things.  Says me let them, its a free country, or at least its supposed to be.  Put he money we're spending on interdiction into offering help for those who want it.  Let the cops chase thieves and robbers.  Get the CBP and Homeland Security out of the drug interdiction business.

[MyNameIsNobody]

36 minutes ago, steingar said:

Yes, the level of prescription drug death in the US is alarming at best.  Unfortunately, the additive effects of opioids and alcohol are to blame.

I prefer societal tolerance if not outright legalization.  I like Portugal's approach.  Folks are going to use these things.  Says me let them, its a free country, or at least its supposed to be.  Put he money we're spending on interdiction into offering help for those who want it.  Let the cops chase thieves and robbers.  Get the CBP and Homeland Security out of the drug interdiction business.

There you go.  Could NOT agree more.  Most can see that recreational opioid use is an expensive death sentence, but for those that just have to play...and there will always be those...let's make it legal and tax it.  That or death sentence...

I really don't feel tolerant toward them, but I want to eliminate the cartel and border issues relating to drugs.  Taxpayers and society is paying for the dregs one way or another...

[Marauder]

5 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said: I have ZERO tolerance for the people that use these drugs.  THEY are the problem.  Everybody else whether enforcing or selling are there because of the user.  Get rid of the demand/user you have no problem.

Fermentation's as old as civilization, I personally think it was the force the trove humans from a hunter-gatherer existence to grain monoculture.  Poppies have been cultivated since antiquity.  Coca leaves were used by Mesoamericans for thousands of years before Europeans ever arrived.  Hell, they were originally in Coca-cola, which is named eponymously.

The desire for substances of this kind is part and parcel of the human condition.  That's why the War on Drugs hasn't worked and never will.

Wasn't the first sign of trouble was when Adam & Eve got sloshed on all those fermenting apples?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[chrisk]

3 hours ago, daver328 said:

Just curious. If I have a CC permit, fly over states who recognize my state's concealed carry permit, and I fly to non airline airports ... I am legal to carry in the aircraft?

I'm under the impression that it only matters for the states where you land.   I think you can land at any airport, no restriction on "airline" airports.  The difficult part is you have to comply with the laws of the state where you land.  --These laws typically differs in where you can carry with your CHL. Churches, bars, restaurants,  and sporting events require careful research.  An example where one might get into trouble is having a CHL and carrying in your car.  --No problem, unless you had a beer.

The best policy is to keep your gun out of sight.  If I was asked about the contents of my plane, I would probably respond with "I don't have anything in the plane you need to know about".  That said, the last time I was pulled over in my car, I gave my CHL to the cop.  He asked where the gun was.  I told him it was at home, and that was the end of it.

 

[carl]

Really, we can only object to the search but we can not stop it. The  U.S.Constitution prohibits unreasonable search and seizures. The question is of course what is reasonable.That is decided by a judge. A warrant would give a pre-search judicial decision.

A warrant is not a requirement of a search,or a seizure. 

Is a pilot not allowing his aircraft to be searched reason enough to have the search accepted as reasonable? Yes; the pilot is acting suspiciously.

Can evidence be moved ,lost, destroyed?  Yes.A plane can just fly off.

It does not disallow the search,that task is given to law enforcement, later a judge would decide if it was legal, or enforceable.  If it was not a reasonable,legal search or seizure the exclusionary rule would disallow evidence found to be admissible in trial. 

In essence the evidence would be thrown out of a trial. 

So the cop has the ability to search your plane. and to detain you and the plane. 

If he thinks he is going to find something in your plane, usually you will be detained and a warrant will be obtained so they can press findings it into evidence. 

If he thinks you are clean and wants to harass you he will search your plane and mess it up.Then your recourse is to file a law suit .

If he is just working his 8 hour day, he has time to kill and has to do these things, he is not looking for the bad guy, he is training.

Having been searched many times. I say "I do not allow this by I am helpless stop you, let me buy you guys a soda" (donuts work better),"and can I sit in the shade"

One time the coast guard searched me for three hours. When they were all done I asked the "commander" why did they pick me. He responded " No reason, you were the first guy to cross our path, we are training some new guys and have 8 hours to kill "  

My rule is never break the law and it is not pleasurable, even the coast guard wan't bad,that was a boat and we were fishing.

 

 

[Shadrach]

26 minutes ago, carl said:

Is a pilot not allowing his aircraft to be searched reason enough to have the search accepted as reasonable? Yes; the pilot is acting suspiciously.

That is completely false.

[chrisk]

32 minutes ago, carl said:

Really, we can only object to the search but we can not stop it. The  U.S.Constitution prohibits unreasonable search and seizures. The question is of course what is reasonable.That is decided by a judge. A warrant would give a pre-search judicial decision.

I totally agree

32 minutes ago, carl said:

Is a pilot not allowing his aircraft to be searched reason enough to have the search accepted as reasonable? Yes; the pilot is acting suspiciously.

I find this twisted logic and likely not true.  It basically allows a search of your plane (boat, car, or person) any time.  --There is no reason to search,  So ask.  If they say no, they are suspicious, so now you have a reason. 

 

32 minutes ago, carl said:

One time the coast guard searched me for three hours. When they were all done I asked the "commander" why did they pick me. He responded " No reason, you were the first guy to cross our path, we are training some new guys and have 8 hours to kill "  .

And this is a perfectly good example of why you would not want your plane searched.

 

As for the boating analog.  The Coast Guards authority to board and search is quite clear on commercial vessels.   When it comes to non-commercial vessels, they are probably on shaky ground. It's unfortunate the courts have allowed this.

[PMcClure]

An officer cannot search without probable cause and cannot detain you without probable cause. A judge will not issue a warrant without probable cause. They cannot stop and search you as a training exercise unless you allow it. You are within your rights to say no thank you and drive, float or fly away. Each situation takes individual judgment on behalf of the officer and citizen and neither is going to have perfect judgement. 

Edited February 13, 2016 by PMcClure

[carl]

39 minutes ago, chrisk said:

The Coast Guards authority to board and search is quite clear on commercial vessels.   When it comes to non-commercial vessels, they are probably on shaky ground. It's unfortunate the courts have allowed this.

Yes ,but you can't stop them, 

you can sue them, 

and you could get evidence thrown out.

otherwise , you are at their mercy.

 

[carl]

29 minutes ago, PMcClure said:

An officer cannot search without probable cause and cannot detain you without probable cause. A judge will not issue a warrant without probable cause. They cannot stop and search you as a training exercise unless you allow it. You are within your rights to say no thank you and drive, float or fly away. Each situation takes individual judgment on behalf of the officer and citizen and neither is going to have perfect judgement. 

Can't do so Legally!

When a illegal detainment happens , what is your recourse.

No someone tell me the police never acts illegally.

Civil suit. BAM! 

We have no rights without going to court.

[Shadrach]

On February 12, 2016 at 9:14 AM, M20F said:

My experience has been like Tony's and others voicing this sort of description.  It seems the gamut runs either no issues, or people having multiple unpleasent issues with LEO.  It makes one ask the question why some individuals have no issues, but others seem to have repeated issues....

Part of it is exposure. Many of my encounters have been brought on by circumstances, others due to my own actions.  I drive over the limit; I always have and likely always will.  Not out of defiance, it's just where my natural comfort level is.  Without cruise control on, the needle slowly edges up unless I focus on it incessantly. If I lived in the west or southwestern states with 75-85mph limits, no sweat. Here in MD the land of 12 lane 55mph freeways, I've been ticketed for 12mph over the limit.  I've had many pleasant interactions with very professional LEOs. 

Part of it is geographic.  I believe that some organizations are managed with public relations in mind and others could care less. I have never encountered a member of the Sheriff's Department that didn't act with the utmost professionalism (perhaps because the Sheriff is an elected office), nor has a deputy ever asked to search my vehicle just because... I also think that LEOs that deal with real "in your face" violent crime  and theft tend to be far more down to earth when it comes to dealing with the small stuff.  In my experience, Baltimore City Police rarely set up speed traps and when they do, they are not robotic, revenue collectors, they are friendly and kind and it is clear they're just trying to slow folks traveling through the neighborhood.   MD State Police have become the most unprofessional fraternity I have seen anywhere. They drive like they're above the law (triple lane changes at triple digit speeds), text and talk behind the wheel. Run lights. Watching this as a motorist on a daily basis does not foster good will.

The reason I likely seem so passionate about searches is that I have experienced it first hand on many occasions in the last 20 years, I have had my car searched under the threat of "Just give a few minutes or I will get a warrant and we'll be here all night" a total of 4 times.  My answer now would be "I understand, please get the warrant". Of course now that I'm a 40 year old in a BMW station wagon with a car seat, no one seems to have much interest in a search.

I am always polite to LEOs. I do not like being lectured by LEOs, but I tolerate it without protest.

DHS has its place, but it's not inside or near my airplane. Maybe if they're able to get the unchecked flow of unkowns coming across the border I'll be more willing to submit my federally registered aircraft to a search.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, carl said:

Can't do so Legally!

When a illegal detainment happens , what is your recourse.

No someone tell me the police never acts illegally.

Civil suit. BAM! 

We have no rights without going to court.

You will need a witness or video evidence. The testimony of a citizen vs. a LEO is worth very little unless you have physical evidence.  If it's a he said/officer said situation, you lose.  Ever wonder why all of the police organizations fight the idea of "Body Camera's".   They only take video of traffic stops after the offence, but they almost never capture the infraction with physical evidence even though the technology is available.

These are the kind of pros we get in MoCo Md.

In recent weeks, officers have twice been photographed speeding past a camera and extending a middle finger, an act that police supervisors interpreted as a gesture of defiance. “There is no excuse for that kind of behavior,” said Andrews, who was briefed on the incidents. - See more at: https://www.motorists.org/blog/maryland-police-refuse-to-pay-speed-camera-tickets/#sthash.HsjmTwW8.dpufhttps://www.motorists.org/blog/maryland-police-refuse-to-pay-speed-camera-tickets/

[MB65E]

On February 10, 2016 at 7:55 PM, M20F said:

Can you share a link to the story?

Disregard already posted.

-Matt

 

Edited February 13, 2016 by MB65E

[NotarPilot]

If you plan to decline an impending search (if you sense one coming), one suggestion might be as soon as someone walks up to you or your plane and identifies themselves as a law enforcement agent is to not say anything at first, raise one index finger (INDEX guys, not middle) as if to nonverbally indicate "one second" while you take out your cell phone, get the video camera recording and say "Yes sir, can you please repeat that?" And get the ENTIRE interaction on video. That way they can't later say you consented to a search should they decide to search against your will.  Do not resist or interfere but you can later use that video recording to file a complaint or pursue other legal options.  Most cops will let you record and aren't going to grab it out of your hand since they never know who else is recording from a distance or what's being recorded on surveillance cameras.  Remember, a lot of FBOs and airports have security cameras all around. But then again there's always the chance you get some cowboy cop so just be aware of that.

As for searching your plane without a warrant, any law enforcement officer can ask for consent to search anything. It's probably how most searches are done everyday in this country because so many people just "go with the flow" don't believe me, watch a few episodes of "Cops" and even people with contraband allow cops to search them. But one key factor is they need to ask someone with legal standing to either allow or decline the search. Example: You run to the Atlantic Aviation FBO at Palm Springs to use the restroom or get some free vegan chocolate chip cookies while you leave your buddy standing next to the plane. Unless he's a partner or partial co-owner he can't legally allow the plane to be searched as he has no legal standing. Your wife on the other hand probably does so just keep that in mind. Maybe incorporate that into your passenger briefing if you leave someone with the plane while you step away. Stay safe and stay smart.

By the way we all know no self respecting Mooney driver eats vegan cookies so this is all a moot issue for us.

[jlunseth]

I see I am late to this discussion and maybe someone has covered this, but I would probably say no.  Decades ago a cousin and I were crossing the border back from Mexico in a car and we must have looked suspicious.  They decided to search us and took the thing apart, including dissassembling part of the dashboard, then left it for us to put back together.  There were a couple of parts I never got right for the life of that car.  If they did something like that to your aircraft, you could not leave until you could find an A&P to repair and certify.  I would not trust them searching my aircraft.  If they have a dog and want to sniff the aircraft from the outside you can't stop them. Its not what they might find that concerns me, because there wouldn't be anything.  It is what they might decide to do to the plane that does bother me.  Quite alot.

[C-GHIJ]

On ‎2016‎-‎02‎-‎12 at 2:38 PM, chrisk said:

If I was asked about the contents of my plane, I would probably respond with "I don't have anything in the plane you need to know about". 

You would be far better to say that you don't have anything illegal in the aircraft.  By saying that you don't have anything that they need to know about would only make them more curious as to what you do have in the plane and make them want to dig further.