Silly question about Instrument Proficiency Check

[Oscar Avalle]

I have a very silly question to put forward, but can a multi engine CFI do an IPC for a SEL?

 

In advance, thank you for your advice...

 

Oscar

[Cruiser]

Others more knowledgeable will have an answer.

I think the rating go something like CFI is required for flight instruction, then a CFI can add on the instrument rating (CFII) and/or the multi-engine rating(MEI).

 

So the instructor must have an instrument rating(CFII) which is in addition to the flight instruction (single(CFI) or multi(MEI)

[peevee]

Can't say I've met anyone with a multi only cfi, interesting.

[carusoam]

Is the pilot flying on the IPC the PIC 100% of the time?

I have forgotten the deep technical parts of the answers to these questions...

Our MCFIIs must be busy working today...

[peevee]

Is the pilot flying on the IPC the PIC 100% of the time?

I have forgotten the deep technical parts of the answers to these questions...

Our MCFIIs must be busy working today...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

the converse has been asked repeatedly and it's been answered that a CFI SEL cannot provide an IPC in a multi engine aircraft, so likely the FAA disagrees with me. I would have thought you could provide instrument instruction on a SEL CFI, big brother says no.

 

 

 

(Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and

(2) If appropriate, a type rating

[mike_elliott]

the converse has been asked repeatedly and it's been answered that a CFI SEL cannot provide an IPC in a multi engine aircraft, so likely the FAA disagrees with me. I would have thought you could provide instrument instruction on a SEL CFI, big brother says no.

 Peevee is correct, the Instructor must have the appropriate category and class rating to give instruction in that category and class. MEL doesn't mean it is in addition to and above a SEL. Sounds like you have a Military instructor...

[Seth]

Good question - not silly.

 

I have a colleague who has over 1000 hours - all Multi.  Does not hold an ASEL, only a multi land rating.

 

Purchased an Aztec, learned how to fly it, got his rating in it, IFR, etc . . . got an Aerostar, sold the Aztec.

 

So he's instrument rated, flies in the flight levels in pressurized comfort, and he flies an Aerostar.  He is not allowed nor knows how to fly a Cessna 172.

 

-Seth

[Hank]

Good question - not silly.

 

I have a colleague who has over 1000 hours - all Multi.  Does not hold an ASEL, only a multi land rating.

 

Purchased an Aztec, learned how to fly it, got his rating in it, IFR, etc . . . got an Aerostar, sold the Aztec.

 

So he's instrument rated, flies in the flight levels in pressurized comfort, and he flies an Aerostar.  He is not allowed nor knows how to fly a Cessna 172.

 

-Seth

 

Great example, but it's a rare occurrence. The overwhelming majority of ME pilots started as ASEL. All of the ones I know did . . . But that ain't too many. Even my friends are CBs.

[peevee]

Great example, but it's a rare occurrence. The overwhelming majority of ME pilots started as ASEL. All of the ones I know did . . . But that ain't too many. Even my friends are CBs.

I actually vaguely remember there being a part 141 program that did multi before cfi and I believe did Mei before cfi. St cloud state iirc. 

[M20F]

Peevee is correct, the Instructor must have the appropriate category and class rating to give instruction in that category and class. MEL doesn't mean it is in addition to and above a SEL. Sounds like you have a Military instructor...

Peeve and Mike Elliott are correct and below is the reference.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/grayson-2%20-%20(2010)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

[Oscar Avalle]

Thanks for the input... So I have to find a ASEL CFII... 

[peevee]

Peeve and Mike Elliott are correct and below is the reference.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/grayson-2%20-%20(2010)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

Had to edit it. My initial thoughts were incorrect. 

[midlifeflyer]

Had to edit it. My initial thoughts were incorrect. 

 

Some of the confusion over the question is the FAA's. At one time, not that long ago, the FAA's position depended on who you asked. The FAA had a formal order saying that, so long as a CFI-I had the appropriate aircraft category and class ratings on his commercial pilot certificate, he could teach instruments in that cat/class without also having the appropriate aircraft rating on his pilot certificate. In fact, it was common for instructors to get their first CFI certificate with an "instrument airplane:" rating rather than an airplane single-engine or multi-engine rating on the theory that (1) it was easier than trying to get the aircraft rating first and (2) they could teach instruments anyway.

 

The FAA legal department didn't buy into this and there were problems with different parts of the FAA interpreting the rule differently. There was even at least one enforcement action against an instructor who taught instruments in a multi with commercial certificate ASEL and AMEL ratings but only IA and ASEL ratings on the CFI certificate. It ended up getting dropped, most likely because of the published guidance that it was OK.  

 

As the Grayson letter linked earlier says, the FAA "clarified" the regulation in 2009. It is now clear that a CFI must always have the appropriate aircraft rating on his CFI certificate in order to teach in that category/class or aircraft.

[Oscar Avalle]

Now, to complicate things further... is an IPC an instruction per se or just a validation of the capacity of the pilot to fly IFR...

[M20F]

Now, to complicate things further... is an IPC an instruction per se or just a validation of the capacity of the pilot to fly IFR...

However you want to define it the requirements are the same.

[Hank]

Now, to complicate things further... is an IPC an instruction per se or just a validation of the capacity of the pilot to fly IFR...

I log mine as PIC and Dual Received, along with ever how much Simulated Instrument time.

[mike_elliott]

Now, to complicate things further... is an IPC an instruction per se or just a validation of the capacity of the pilot to fly IFR...

 

Instructor's give instruction, DPE's give tests and validation of instructors' recommendations.

[midlifeflyer]

Instructor's give instruction, DPE's give tests and validation of instructors' recommendations.

May be true for a flight review, which is by definition, instruction. But an IPC is described only as a check. But as M20F saud, the distinction is important in terms of the CFI requirements. After all, "evaluation" and "testing" are part of what an instructor does (not limited to aviation).

[M016576]

Can't say I've met anyone with a multi only cfi, interesting.

The FAA won't issue a MEI only. I found that out a few years back. You need a CFI first, then MEI.

Ironically, you can hold a CFII without a CFI or MEI.

[peevee]

Ironically, you can hold a CFII without a CFI or MEI.

Hmm, maybe that's what they were doing at the school referenced above, but I could swear they did Mei first. Maybe the policy has changed.

[midlifeflyer]

The FAA won't issue a MEI only. I found that out a few years back. You need a CFI first, then MEI.

Ironically, you can hold a CFII without a CFI or MEI.

 

I'm not sure I really understand what you are saying. Yeah I know the common shorthand turns, nut once we get into details like this, I think it's helpful to use the official language.

 

CFI is  an FAA flight instructor certificate.

 

Airplane Single Engine, Airplane Multi Engine, and Instrument Airplane are ratings. For example, Someone with only a CFI-I has a Certified Flight instructor certificate with an instrument airplane rating, but with no aircraft ratings.

 

If you are saying that the first airplane rating for a CFI certificate must be "airplane single engine," I've never heard of that - do you have a published FAA reference?

[M016576]

I'm not sure I really understand what you are saying. Yeah I know the common shorthand turns, nut once we get into details like this, I think it's helpful to use the official language.

CFI is an FAA flight instructor certificate.

Airplane Single Engine, Airplane Multi Engine, and Instrument Airplane are ratings. For example, Someone with only a CFI-I has a Certified Flight instructor certificate with an instrument airplane rating, but with no aircraft ratings.

If you are saying that the first airplane rating for a CFI certificate must be "airplane single engine," I've never heard of that - do you have a published FAA reference?

I hold a CFII. I can instruct instruments in my type ratings... But I don't hold a CFI in those ratings. I can't legally teach you to stall, or do TAA or sign off high performance ratings, but I can teach you instruments in ASEL or AMEL

I received that rating through military equivalence as a flight instructor. Since my rating as an instructor pilot is in a twin engine jet, limited to centerline thrust, I am not eligible for CFI or MEI through military equivalence, but I did receive a CFII as I am an instrument instructor/evaluator in my model of jet. I will get a CFI and MEI at some point (after I pay a school a bunch of cash and do my best to learn something)... Just haven't gotten around to it yet.

So what I'm saying is that the first instructor certificate does NOT have to be a CFI ASEL... Which I find kind of funny. I don't have any references to share, but I can post a picture of my certificate if you're that interested.

[Marauder]

I hold a CFII. I can instruct instruments in my type ratings... But I don't hold a CFI in those ratings. I can't legally teach you to stall, or do TAA or sign off high performance ratings, but I can teach you instruments in ASEL or AMEL

I received that rating through military equivalence as a flight instructor. Since my rating as an instructor pilot is in a twin engine jet, limited to centerline thrust, I am not eligible for CFI or MEI through military equivalence, but I did receive a CFII as I am an instrument instructor/evaluator in my model of jet I will get a CFI... Just haven't gotten around to it yet.

So what I'm saying is that the first instructor certificate does NOT have to be a CFI... Which I find kind of funny. I don't have any references to share, but I can post a picture of my certificate if you're that interested.

It is kind strange how that is managed. But I guess in a single they assume you won't know what to do when you flame out that Lycoming and don't have the option to increasing the thrust on the remaining engine

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[M016576]

It is kind strange how that is managed. But I guess in a single they assume you won't know what to do when you flame out that Lycoming and don't have the option to increasing the thrust on the remaining engine

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Is the answer eject?

[mike_elliott]

May be true for a flight review, which is by definition, instruction. But an IPC is described only as a check. But as M20F saud, the distinction is important in terms of the CFI requirements. After all, "evaluation" and "testing" are part of what an instructor does (not limited to aviation).

If, during an IPC, PTS standards are not met, there isn't a "pink slip" issued, but more instruction suggested prior to signing off as an IPC IAW 61.57(d). Once the tasks are completed with PTS standards are met, a signoff certifying that the pilot has completed a Instrument Proficiency Check can be issued (just did one today). In the event it is unsatisfactory, no logbook entry is necessary to state such. We as instructors, certify the pilot has met standards, just as we do when we send them to a DPE for a practical test for ratings or instructor's certificate. We don't test them, just certify them!