Thoughts on purchase of M20C?

[carusoam]

Based on our collective experience...

There is a risk of getting stuck with something.

Rusty cams in IO360s have come up a couple times...

Corroded spars have made a couple of appearances...

Stuck exhaust valves in a few planes, including my C. I also got two ADs to swap out some parts at the first annual. Control rods and oil pump gears.

Starters...

Charging systems...

One unfortunate pilot got two GU experiences with manual gear.

The proper PPI can minimize these risks...

Proper transition training may eliminate some others...

Partnership with another pilot (or marry well) will cut the expense in half.

Every year something small will wear or break or just need to be replaced by somebody.

The list of challenges has effected a comparatively small number of the thousand Mooney owners here

Hope that helps...

In the end, when you look back at your experience, one question will arise... Was it worth it?

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

Didn't we have one list member total his plane out right after be bought it for similar issues? He said that he was going to have to continue to make payments on it.

 

-Robert

[DXB]

I picked the C model too based on the favorable economics, and I got my plane 6 months ago at about the same experience level that you have, but I'm about 17 years senior to you. Doesn't sound like you're in a great financial position for solo ownership - but not many 24 year olds are.  In your position, my plane would have quickly bankrupted me since purchase.  Give it time- you'll get there. Rental, flying clubs, and possibly a partnership are your best bet for now- but even a 2 person partnership in an M20C might be a huge strain on you.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I keep fairly precise records of my flying expenses (and out of sight from the wife). The range of actual cash outlay to fly my Mooney annually will range from $16 AMU to $24 AMU......

 

Wait, if you spend $24AMU and fly 250 hours per year, that's, well, er, a thousand bucks an hour, right!?!?

 

I remember when $25,000 seemed like a lot of money.   That was before I owned airplanes, of course.

[Raptor05121]

You are practically an ATC without the radar. The median for them is $122K--more than enough to own and keep a nice Mooney.

 

Many of them, typically the best ones, are pilots.

For years I wanted to do the ATC route. Unfortunately, I have amblyopia in my right eye. It was a fight just to get my 3rd class medical and fly for fun. I will not be making a professional career of aviation requring a medical of a 2nd class or higher, sadly.

Again, thanks for all the comments. Wants wants wants :/ I guess I will set my sights to have one before I turn 30, then. My 17 year old, 450,000 mile F-150 is still running fine, so no car payment for me.

[RobertGary1]

Wait, if you spend $24AMU and fly 250 hours per year, that's, well, er, a thousand bucks an hour, right!?!?

 

I remember when $25,000 seemed like a lot of money.   That was before I owned airplanes, of course.

 

Wait until you have kids in college. I write checks for $20K without flinching now. Its good practice.

 

-Robert

[Shadrach]

Alex, you've got the right idea. I am not trying to deter you from your dream, just trying to ensure it does not become a nightmare. Many here will tell you to save for the next several years and then buy the plane outright. That is reasonable advice that will help keep you out of trouble. I advise a slightly different approach. I think that financing makes a lot of sense in this interest rate environment. However, I still think you should save the cash. In short, have the money to buy the plane outright, but finance as much as you can if interest rates are favorable.

[ryoder]

I have to be blunt as well. You have wandered into a hobby that requires a 100k plus per year income. Sorry to say it.

[bonal]

100k means many different things to different people. What are your monthly expenses outside of aviation kids no kids mortgage etc. I think if someone has reasonable debt you can own an airplane perhaps even a vintage Mooney on less than a 100 per year. Keeping your plane outside is not a great choice but LOTS of them live outside that can save a couple grand a year easy. And certainly there are less costly models to own than a Mooney. Be patient your time will come and then you can join the rest of us lunatics and be able to say

"IT COSTS HOW MUCH"

[Raptor05121]

I have to be blunt as well. You have wandered into a hobby that requires a 100k plus per year income. Sorry to say it.

 

I find this hard to believe. I'm curious what the mean income level is here for peope, but I'd wager closer to 50k than 100k

[Hank]

Relax, Raptor. It's not how much you EARN that counts, it's how much you DON'T SPEND on other things.

Paying for kids' college education? That'll buy a nice Mooney. Got a $2000 mortgage? That's more than my mortgage, plane payment and hangar rent combined used to be. Country club membership? Non-working spouse? Private school? Snazzy new cars? It adds up, quickly, and sucks up the airplane buying money first, then the flying money second.

I hate to do this type of addition . . . 100 hours x 9 gal/hr x $5?/gal = $4500 in fuel. Two oil changes ($36/case x 2 , 2 filters at ~$20 each). A $250 battery every 5-7 years. Tie down/hangar rent varies, you'll have to check. First year count on $1500 insurance; my C is insured double your price for $970-ish. Annual ~$1000-1200 + whatever needs to be fixed.

Startup costs: you'll need at least two headsets. Good ones are $350-ish (get Halos for yourself, DC for passengers); shop classifieds here, AOPA and eBay. You'll want to wash & wax her. Canopy cover for tie down & travel use (~&500? I dunno; plane covers.com is it). Flight bag. Flashlights. Handheld radio. Paper sectionals are pretty cheap, I keep three to cover all of my family and nearby areas--$8 each, twice a year (get a subscription at joepilot.com to lower unit price and postage). Tools to do owner maintenance--creeper, torque wrench, safety wire pliers, safety wire, ratchet, sockets, screwdrivers, pliers, wire cutters, extras of every screw, gotta have a couple hats in the plane, and one or two loaners, a traveling umbrella, etc., etc.

Then you'll eventually need a GPS, which requires an annual data subscription (my Garmin is ~$500 a year). Some folks will tell you to buy an iPad and subscribe to their favorite apps ($1000 entry fee, $~250 annual subscriptions). You'll want to join AOPA, EAA, MAPA and a host of other organizations (~$50/year each).

Then you get to fly! And that was covered first. Add it up if you want to, just don't tell us the result!

[gsxrpilot]

Lord have mercy Hank! Did you really have to post that? That's as impossible to un-see as those pictures of Marauder's girls. 

 

But you're exactly correct. The treatment for this particular malady is not cheap, but it is necessary.

[bonal]

I find this hard to believe. I'm curious what the mean income level is here for peope, but I'd wager closer to 50k than 100k

Depends on the category vintage group I'd guess 75k to maybe 150k if you want to hang out on the modern category I'll bet those cats start at closer to 200k. It's not the aircraft posts so much as the other stuff I read that tells me there is some real big net worth there.

[Andy95W]

I'm with Hank. It ends up being about prioritizing where your disposable income goes.

My starting pay as a regional airline First Officer was about $17,000/ year back in 2000. I managed to keep, maintain, and fly my first M20C because that was all I had or did. Lived in a shitty apartment, drove an old crappy car, and worked part time as an underpaid A&P for my old boss.

And I loved every minute of it. Got divorced, didn't have enough money to date, but I kept the airplane and my second year pay went all the way up to $22,000/ year.

[HRM]

I find this hard to believe. I'm curious what the mean income level is here for peope, but I'd wager closer to 50k than 100k

 

The non-aviation insiders are typically physicians, attorneys, successful businessmen and the occasional university professor.

[Shadrach]

I find this hard to believe. I'm curious what the mean income level is here for peope, but I'd wager closer to 50k than 100k

 

Do you mean here on Mooneyspace or Suwannee Co?  I venture a guess that the median household income on Mooneyspace is ~$200,000. In Suwannee Co its $26,256.

I'm betting the mean income on Mooneyspace is higher than the median because we likely have some serious over achievers blowing the curve!

 

A single guy can own an AC on <$100,000 annually depending on where they live, but an unexpected expense can be life changing.  I have been in a 3 way partnership for 10 years ( I was 31 when I become a partner). At the time I became a partner I had just crossed the six figure annual income mark.  I had no kids, and monthly expenses of ~ $1,500 including rent.  Partnering in 1/3 of $55K airplane was no great hard ship.  I had enough cash on hand to buy in, so a borrowing was not difficult.

 

5 years into ownership our engine developed a case crack at 880hr SMOH.  Not too bad to stomach when split 3 ways. I did most of the R&R, so it ended up costing each of us less than $2000. For some this would have been a $30,000 expense.

 

My plane runs me about $110-125 an hour if I fly 30hrs a year. it gets cheaper the more I fly because fuel is about half of the cost of ownership.

 

I am now 41 years old, married, with my first child due in January...and I'm in the process of starting a business.  Life is insane (in a good way)!  Every day I pray that the Mooney does not throw wrench into my life.

[RobertGary1]

I find this hard to believe. I'm curious what the mean income level is here for peope, but I'd wager closer to 50k than 100k

 

I bet it is highly dependent on where you live. In California it would be difficult to afford a plane on $100K unless that was really your whole life. And you always have the unexpected $40K engine replacement.

 

-Robert

[Shadrach]

I bet it is highly dependent on where you live. In California it would be difficult to afford a plane on $100K unless that was really your whole life. And you always have the unexpected $40K engine replacement.

 

-Robert

That depends on whether you live in San Francisco or Salton City.

[ryoder]

I find this hard to believe. I'm curious what the mean income level is here for peope, but I'd wager closer to 50k than 100k

Of course I have no idea what others make but sometimes this is too rich for my blood and I'm not low paid. If I had to live on 50k I would not even consider it.

[RobertGary1]

That depends on whether you live in San Francisco or Salton City.

Very true. Although you're still paying 1.2% annual property tax, 8-10% on the purchase and if you put the plane in an llc or corp $800/yr in "franchise tax". Plus if you get a hanger oddly the state charges tenants property tax. Not exactly a welcome mat

-Robert

[Shadrach]

Holy cow!  I lived in SF for 4 years.  I was poor enough making $65K a year not to have to worry about any of those expenses!

[Yetti]

After purchasing a p1ane recent1y.  I don't have enough money 1eft to by an 1 so I have to use a 1 .    My suggestion is to have about $10K  in addition to the p1ane purchase price to take care of things once it is home.   Say a tai1 pipe for $450.00 

[Wildhorsesracing]

My daughter is in the same boat you are in, mid-20's, loves to fly, wants to buy, but truly can only afford to rent. 

 

I can vouch after owning a few airplanes now that there are always hidden expenses.  I try to fly every week and realized that 90% of my flying is alone, no pax.  There are many times I wonder if I should've bought a nice 2 seater aircraft for most flying and rent bigger when I want to do an XC w/more than my spouse.  In the 6 yrs I have owned planes, I have had someone in the back seat of my Mooney - once (YMMV).

 

But I am also a firm believer in the power of patience and creativity, find a way to conserve your finances and purchase what you want. I know of a young couple your age that started their own business, built a "tiny house" to save $$ to make sure the business succeeded.  After 5 yrs their business is strong, they love their tiny house and travel all over the world enjoying the freedom of less financial commitments.  The key is they were patiently creative on meeting their needs and now they have a generous surplus.

[Raptor05121]

My daughter is in the same boat you are in, mid-20's, loves to fly, wants to buy, but truly can only afford to rent. 

 

I can vouch after owning a few airplanes now that there are always hidden expenses.  I try to fly every week and realized that 90% of my flying is alone, no pax.  There are many times I wonder if I should've bought a nice 2 seater aircraft for most flying and rent bigger when I want to do an XC w/more than my spouse.  In the 6 yrs I have owned planes, I have had someone in the back seat of my Mooney - once (YMMV).

 

But I am also a firm believer in the power of patience and creativity, find a way to conserve your finances and purchase what you want. I know of a young couple your age that started their own business, built a "tiny house" to save $$ to make sure the business succeeded.  After 5 yrs their business is strong, they love their tiny house and travel all over the world enjoying the freedom of less financial commitments.  The key is they were patiently creative on meeting their needs and now they have a generous surplus.

See I'm quite the opposite. I always fly seats full. So much, in fact, I have to rotate friends everytime I go up.

[Raptor05121]

I wanted to bump this thread. I just got a call from a mechanic at the local airport that knows an older gentleman that has just failed a medical renewal and is selling his 1963 M20C. He says it has a 3-blade prop, VFR instruemtns only, 1700SMOH, flown very often. Asking $22k for it. It has another month before the annual runs out, and damage wise it had some corrosion that was repaired by zinc chromate the problem area and a crack in the aluminum by the outer wing spar which still needs to be fixed. Compressions are perfect he says with gear swinging good. The mechanic said it should be a $3k annual to get it back in shape. I understand the lure of a cheap Mooney so I'm not high hopes, but its right around the corner and I'm going to look at it tomorrow just because I have nothing better to do.