Question for ATC controllers out there

[flyboy0681]

Last month I wrote about a NORDO situation I found myself in flying in the Columbia, South Carolina airspace (http://mooneyspace.com/topic/15572-tell-me-about-gtn-squelch-issues/?p=218689)

 

As the investigation continues, I requested - and received - from the Columbia FSDO, a CD containing the ATC recordings as well as the paperwork. By the way, I must say the people that I have been dealing with at the FSDO have been extremely cordial, accommodating and downright friendly.

 

In the official report that the controller filed, he stated that he handed me off to Greer ACTC and that "the transmission was acknowledged". I found the section of the recording where the handoff took place and there was no such acknowledgment by me at all, nothing even close like the double keying of my mic (BTW, I always repeat the given frequency - without exception).

 

One interesting thing is heard a few seconds prior to the handoff that I need clarification on by any controller that may be reading this. Five seconds before the handoff was transmitted, the controller at Greer is heard saying the following to the Columbia controller over the landline: "Greer Columbia, non-radar entry or handoff". Does this mean that I appeared on the Greer controllers screen and that the Columbia controller somehow delayed or forgot to contact the Greer controller ahead of time to coordinate my transfer to his position? If so, that explains a lot as it could mean that I traveled beyond the boundaries of Columbia's radio coverage (I was at 4,000 feet) by the time he attempted to broadcast the frequency change to me.

 

In either event, I clearly did not hear the handoff otherwise I would have complied (why wouldn't I?). Once I did realize that something was amiss, I called up FAR 91.185 and went through the "AVE F" mnemonic. I then called Atlanta Center, explained to them that I lost contact with Columbia and they took good care of me all the way to my destination.

[Marauder]

Last month I wrote about a NORDO situation I found myself in flying in the Columbia, South Carolina airspace (http://mooneyspace.com/topic/15572-tell-me-about-gtn-squelch-issues/?p=218689)

As the investigation continues, I requested - and received - from the Columbia FSDO, a CD containing the ATC recordings as well as the paperwork. By the way, I must say the people that I have been dealing with at the FSDO have been extremely cordial, accommodating and downright friendly.

In the official report that the controller filed, he stated that he handed me off to Greer ACTC and that "the transmission was acknowledged". I found the section of the recording where the handoff took place and there was no such acknowledgment by me at all, nothing even close like the double keying of my mic (BTW, I always repeat the given frequency - without exception).

One interesting thing is heard a few seconds prior to the handoff that I need clarification on by any controller that may be reading this. Five seconds before the handoff was transmitted, the controller at Greer is heard saying the following to the Columbia controller over the landline: "Greer Columbia, non-radar entry or handoff". Does this mean that I appeared on the Greer controllers screen and that the Columbia controller somehow delayed or forgot to contact the Greer controller ahead of time to coordinate my transfer to his position? If so, that explains a lot as it could mean that I traveled beyond the boundaries of Columbia's radio coverage (I was at 4,000 feet) by the time he attempted to broadcast the frequency change to me.

In either event, I clearly did not hear the handoff otherwise I would have complied (why wouldn't I?). Once I did realize that something was amiss, I called up FAR 91.185 and went through the "AVE F" mnemonic. I then called Atlanta Center, explained to them that I lost contact with Columbia and they took good care of me all the way to my destination.

I am following your situation closely. In June I experienced a problem with my GTN and Narco that made it hard for me to hear instructions. Fortunately, I didn't go NORDO but it did wake me up to how rough it can be without a radio.

Let us know how it turns out. Curious on the process.

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[1964-M20E]

Sounds like you handled it correctly.  You knew you should have been handed off and you did not get that hand off (situational awareness) and called someone else to clarify.  I assume you continued on your clearance as well.

 

On routes I fly often I have a pretty good idea of when I will be handed off and have the next frequency already tuned in on the standby side.  Sometimes they switch the frequency just to keep it interesting but the hand off are usually in the same general area.

 

Is the FAA making an issue over this?

[flyboy0681]

Sounds like you handled it correctly.  You knew you should have been handed off and you did not get that hand off (situational awareness) and called someone else to clarify.  I assume you continued on your clearance as well.

 

On routes I fly often I have a pretty good idea of when I will be handed off and have the next frequency already tuned in on the standby side.  Sometimes they switch the frequency just to keep it interesting but the hand off are usually in the same general area.

 

Is the FAA making an issue over this?

 

I adhered to FAR 91.185 and continued on with my last clearance, which was to fly to Spartanburg VOR and then direct to my destination airport.

 

I filed my account of the situation and am waiting to hear if they are going to pursue this any further.

[peevee]

The nonradar handoff has nothing to do with you or the situation.

[Mooney20]

I adhered to FAR 91.185 and continued on with my last clearance, which was to fly to Spartanburg VOR and then direct to my destination airport.

I filed my account of the situation and am waiting to hear if they are going to pursue this any further.

Any time one finds themself in a situation similar to the one described above, or for that matter, any potential violation of FARs not the result of a deliberate act of non-compliance, make a report with the Aviation Safety Reporting System, commonly referred to as a "NASA Report". It can be done online, all information is de-identified, but must be done with 10 days. It can potentially prevent sanctions being imposed for an FAR violation. I can just about assure you that if one consults an aviation lawyer about a Letter of Investigation from the FAA, probably the first question asked will be, "Did you file a NASA report?" Don't wait until you get the letter. It's too late then.

They publish a newsletter, "Callback", to which you can subscribe that covers various events reported. It is very good reading.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov

[Yooper Rocketman]

If you have listened to the tape and no acknowledgement can be heard from you, sounds like the Columbia controller is trying to do some CYA.  I've heard or been part of many of those same situations, where a controller let a pilot go too far before trying to perform the hand off, and have never heard of this going any farther than simply reestablishing radio contact.  I've even done relays for some controllers when this has happened.  The inquiry may even be to investigate the controller, just needing your statement and facts to clarify the situation.

 

Tom

[Shadrach]

If you have listened to the tape and no acknowledgement can be heard from you, sounds like the Columbia controller is trying to do some CYA.  I've heard or been part of many of those same situations, where a controller let a pilot go too far before trying to perform the hand off, and have never heard of this going any farther than simply reestablishing radio contact.  I've even done relays for some controllers when this has happened.  The inquiry may even be to investigate the controller, just needing your statement and facts to clarify the situation.

 

Tom

This has happened to me several times. The worst was a Washington center controller who I could still raise on the radio. She had no idea who I was even though she had given me a squawk code and altimeter setting earlier. She then proceeded to say "you're not in my sector, frequency change approved". I called Philly and got things back on track. I called the next day and spoke with a supervisor on the phone. After reviewing the tape he called me back and apologized, but made no indication of how she just forgot I was there.

[flyboy0681]

If you have listened to the tape and no acknowledgement can be heard from you, sounds like the Columbia controller is trying to do some CYA.  I've heard or been part of many of those same situations, where a controller let a pilot go too far before trying to perform the hand off, and have never heard of this going any farther than simply reestablishing radio contact.  I've even done relays for some controllers when this has happened.  The inquiry may even be to investigate the controller, just needing your statement and facts to clarify the situation.

 

Tom

 

This is the first time in 35 years of flying that I've gotten a call from them. When I was first contacted I was freaking out a little, especially when the controllers report was read to me over the phone and it said that I acknowledged him. All kinds of thoughts were running through my head, including Alzheimer's. For the past month I kept beating myself up asking over and over, how I could have acknowledged him and then just sat there.

[peevee]

No, It likely has nothing to do with the controller. Once you go nordo beyond a certain threshold a report is basically automatically sent to qa, they write it up and forward it to the fsdo. Then they decide what to do with it. This has all changed quite recently. It times past they'd have you call in and that'd be about the end of it. Now it triggers a bunch of automatic responses.

Monitor guard guys. If you get lost its the first place they'll go looking. Also the facilities are listening to guard, if you get lost you can call on 21.5 and if they can hear and find you they'll get you a frequency.

[chrisk]

I went NORDO about 6 months ago.  I was close to my destination, so I called the tower.  They gave me the same frequency for ATC where I couldn't raise them.  Then I used the published frequency on the approach chart.  That worked.

 

I didn't think to much of the situation.  When I landed, I taxied to the fuel pumps at the far end of the field.  --As I was fueling, the emergency vehicle rolled up, asked if I was ok, and took a report.  My 16 year old daughter got a big kick out of it. I never heard any more about the issue.

[peevee]

I went NORDO about 6 months ago.  I was close to my destination, so I called the tower.  They gave me the same frequency for ATC where I couldn't raise them.  Then I used the published frequency on the approach chart.  That worked.

 

I didn't think to much of the situation.  When I landed, I taxied to the fuel pumps at the far end of the field.  --As I was fueling, the emergency vehicle rolled up, asked if I was ok, and took a report.  My 16 year old daughter got a big kick out of it. I never heard any more about the issue.

So, since those northwest pilots overshot their destination by however long a few years back nordo aircraft have been a hot button item. They get about 5 minutes to get you back, then it gets reported, then after some period of time I'm unaware of the above mentioned routine gets put into motion. There's been a lot of pressure on the controllers to know who is and isn't on freq and I can only assume word has gotten through the airlines because the pilots ask a lot more often if they haven't heard from me, which isn't a bad thing. It works a little differently in the terminal world I'm sure.

[flyboy0681]

 because the pilots ask a lot more often if they haven't heard from me, which isn't a bad thing. 

 

I can already see how this episode is going to affect me in the future. I too will be asking for radio checks for now on if I don't hear anything for five minutes. There is one stretch along Florida's west coast, north of Tampa, where I am on Jacksonville's frequency for about 40 minutes and sometimes I don't hear anything for a long time. Guess who will be checking in every so often.

[chrisk]

I had 5 or 6  minutes of radio silence when skirting the south western edge of Houston yesterday afternoon.  I thought I had gone NORDO for sure.  Nope!  Just a few minutes of silence.     Usually I have trouble finding space to make a call.  There is always someone who goes on and on about something.

[peevee]

I can already see how this episode is going to affect me in the future. I too will be asking for radio checks for now on if I don't hear anything for five minutes. There is one stretch along Florida's west coast, north of Tampa, where I am on Jacksonville's frequency for about 40 minutes and sometimes I don't hear anything for a long time. Guess who will be checking in every so often.

not just silence, if YOU haven't received a call in awhile. Often someone misses a call, they still hear radio chatter (I suspect?) and they outfly the transmitter range before anyone realizes and then they have to go after them. Monitor guard folks, the controllers will do everything they can to keep you out of trouble. They don't like paperwork either.

[peevee]

I had 5 or 6  minutes of radio silence when skirting the south western edge of Houston yesterday afternoon.  I thought I had gone NORDO for sure.  Nope!  Just a few minutes of silence.     Usually I have trouble finding space to make a call.  There is always someone who goes on and on about something.

sometimes the controller is doing something offline, might be on a landline, talking to a supe, briefing the next controller, drinking coffee from a spillproof cup so as to not fry a $1500 keyboard, who knows, things happen. In my facility it's usually 1 person on a sector and not often two people, so the guy on freq is doing the offline coordination also sector to sector. Sometimes it's on a ring line or shout line, sometimes it's yelling across the area. Staffing is pretty poor I think just about agency wide right now so I imagine that's the norm.

 

You guys know you can make facility visits, right? Centers are easy, call the watch desk and ask, if you can't find the numbers I probably can. They'll show you around and plug you in with someone, it's worthwhile I like to think.

[flyboy0681]

... and they outfly the transmitter range before anyone realizes and then they have to go after them. 

 

This sounds like exactly what happened to me. By the time he tried to raise me, I was out of range. Hopefully they will see it that way and not take it any further.

[peevee]

This sounds like exactly what happened to me. By the time he tried to raise me, I was out of range. Hopefully they will see it that way and not take it any further.

highly unlikely it would go anywhere.

like I said, in the old days they may have you call and talk to the supe just so they sort of know what happened for educational purposes, now a lot is automated. Controllers aren't cops, they want to come to work, work their hours, move some planes around, and go home un-hassled like everyone else. If there's no readback on tape I'm actually really surprised it went anywhere outside of QA.

Another hot button item is hearback/readback, so they'd LOVE to gig the controller on that, and he probably deserves a little....

[flyboy0681]

As a follow up to this incident, I heard from the FSDO investigating this and they are closing the case without further action. The investigator listened to the ATC recordings and concurred with me that no acknowledgment is heard from me when the controller issued the frequency change request.

[Marauder]

As a follow up to this incident, I heard from the FSDO investigating this and they are closing the case without further action. The investigator listened to the ATC recordings and concurred with me that no acknowledgment is heard from me when the controller issued the frequency change request.

 

Glad to hear of the outcome. I have filed a few NASA reports over the years out of fear that I may have screwed up. 

[Danb]

Close to topic and re: the NASA report ..I was flying from Kiag to Kilg yesterday..my clearance was cleared to Kilg as filed 7000' freq 126.5 sqwack 2174.. I thin read back cleared as filed 2-7 in 10. And rest of clearance...I was approaching Buf. At 2000 and asked controller when can I expect 7000 and he shot back didn't Kiag give you 7000' I said I don't believe I said 2-7 in 10.... Looked over my notes and it read as filed 7000 ft., I was incorrect...should I file a NASA ? Nothing more was said since my response was 29.98 going to 7000ft., have a great day...

[Marauder]

Close to topic and re: the NASA report ..I was flying from Kiag to Kilg yesterday..my clearance was cleared to Kilg as filed 7000' freq 126.5 sqwack 2174.. I thin read back cleared as filed 2-7 in 10. And rest of clearance...I was approaching Buf. At 2000 and asked controller when can I expect 7000 and he shot back didn't Kiag give you 7000' I said I don't believe I said 2-7 in 10.... Looked over my notes and it read as filed 7000 ft., I was incorrect...should I file a NASA ? Nothing more was said since my response was 29.98 going to 7000ft., have a great day...

Dan, file the report either way. Anytime there is a miscommunication, there is a chance they make it an issue. I couldn't tell from your post when you misread the clearance did they give you a "read back correct".

Either way, there was a miscommunication.

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[Danb]

Chris I can't be sure I honestly thought I read back 2-7 in 10. Based on habit I guess...but after I queried Buffalo approach re: altitude change he told me Kiag should have given me 7000..and I replied I was given 2-7 in 10 he did not make a big deal out of it and I was the one who initiated the conversation...his voice was kinda curt so I then looked over my clearance notes and for sure I was given 7000..as filed...I've never filed a nasa so it appears no down side to do it but who knows I was under there control and it was only about 5-6 min. But I saw I going directly over Buffalo at 2000 when I asked..thanx for the input..I'm considering starting a post with this question, file the nasa or not, if I have no down side I should file it?

Thanx

Dan

[Piloto]

One cause of near miss is different altimeter setting for planes in close proximity when transitioning thru FL180. Above FL180 the pilot should adjust the baro setting to 29.92" but below FL180 it should be the setting called by ATC. Often the controller clears traffic down thru FL180 without mentioning the altimeter setting. This can cause an indicated altitude discrepancy between traffic coming down thru FL 180 and traffic below FL180. At these altitudes minor alt setting differences can lead to significant altitude differences. In remote or oceanic areas the setting is 29.92" at any altitude. Always double check.

 

José 

[peevee]

When he climbed you to 7 he essentially released that block up to 7 to you. It's a lot different than if they climbed you to 2 and you blew through the altitude. I wouldn't sweat it. As far as the controller knows it could have been an automation issue between facilities.

There is no downside, the upside is it's another data point for a hear back read back error which is a high priority. If it makes you sleep better fill one out.