The Other Side of the ADSB coin

[Hank]

O.K. Mooneyspace Admn. BAN HIM. He asked for it vs. just editing the profanity from his previous post.

Use the 'Report' button next to 'MultiQuote'

[MyNameIsNobody]

Already done Hank. Thank you. Just wanted to let peevee know where it came from. No sneaky behind the scenes stabbing...

[mpg]

Well since this about ADSB,,,   I saw this ,   what do you folks think about it?

 

http://www.marvgolden.com/ilevil-2-sw-portable-ads-b-gps-ahrs.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=june_specials_2015

[MyNameIsNobody]

I think it should be under avionics as a separate topic header...

[BKlott]

Having read many, many articles on the ADSB situation it has come to mind that we might be giving up a lot to gain what is offered. I'd like to submit this letter in an effort to promote discussion and thought on the other side of the ADSB coin.

I fully realize that this may be controversial and I apologize in advance if it is too strongly worded for some.

WHAT IF YOU RECEIVED THE FOLLOWING LETTER IN THE MAIL?

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY

Dear Fellow Citizen,

The Secretary of Transportation has determined that for purposes of traffic monitoring, control and safety, starting on Jan 1, 2020, in order for you to be allowed to travel by car or truck to, or near, any one of 137 named cities or, to use the Interstate Highway System, you will be required to install on your vehicle, a GPS tracking device (at your expense) that will transmit your position, your instantaneous speed and your travel direction to this department and, simultaneously, to the local law enforcement agency for the area you are traveling through. Your license plate data and vehicle information will be included in such GPS transmissions.

This data will be recorded by the Department of Transportation and law enforcement for future use. The scope of this future use and the retention time of these records are, as yet, undetermined.

If you elect to travel to these cities and install said GPS tracking device as required, you will not be allowed to disable the unit at any time and you must allow us to track your every movement from then on. Whether to the named cities, to the local bank or to the grocery store; we will, after installation, track and record your movements, at all times, any time your vehicle moves, .

Your identification, tracking and travel data will be made available to anyone in the general public, via open dissemination, in real time.

The Department will also provide traffic and weather information to you, as you travel through these areas via another radio receiver if, and only if, you elect to purchase such a unit, again, at your expense.

Both the GPS tracking unit and the Information receiver must meet Department of Transportation design requirements and the installations must be documented and approved by this Department.

The installations may only be accomplished by a “Department Approved” installation facility under penalty of law.

The Department reserves the right to use, record and disseminate the reported and collected data, as it sees fit, for internal use and for use by other governmental entities, law enforcement and the general public.

We thank you for your cooperation in this matter and please-drive safely.

The simple truth is that the general public would not stand for this type of treatment. The potential political repercussions of this would prevent it from happening in the first place.

I saw a publication on-line from the Nexgen Fund. It referenced the population of General Aviation aircraft at 200,000+. it stated that they expect about 150,000 to be equipped and the other 50,000 to either be exempt, remain outside of Class B airspace or be "parked".

When you think of all the less expensive airplanes with mounting hours on their engines, deteriorating paint jobs and interiors, I wonder how many of their owners will pay for ADS -B equipment versus unloading or parking their airplanes?

If 25% to 50% elect to park their airplanes, what impact will that have on the industry infrastructure that general aviation depends on?

Will there be enough activity left to support the mechanics, flight instructors, FBOs, parts suppliers, fuel providers, etc.?

Spend some time scrutinizing the for sale listings. Look at the number of planes with high time engines, bad paint jobs and older generation avionics. Then ask yourself who is going to buy that airplane facing all of those big bills plus be willing to spend the money for ADS-B?

Something to think about!

[Raptor05121]

Not sure where that all ended up, but at one time they were talking black boxes for cars. Anyone else recall this?

 

GM vehicles have them for sure. I am a 9-1-1 dispatcher and we will get telematics calls (OnStar) and they will say: "we have a vehicle accident at so-and-so intersection, black 2014 Silverado. Impact speed 43 mph. Both airbag deployment. Weight sensors indicate occupied 2x, no voice contact made with subscriber"

[Marauder]

GM vehicles have them for sure. I am a 9-1-1 dispatcher and we will get telematics calls (OnStar) and they will say: "we have a vehicle accident at so-and-so intersection, black 2014 Silverado. Impact speed 43 mph. Both airbag deployment. Weight sensors indicate occupied 2x, no voice contact made with subscriber"

That is quite a bit of information provided...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Raptor05121]

That is quite a bit of information provided...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

yeah, subscriber or not, they have access to all the sensors in your vehicle in an emergency. the new ones they can unlock remotely, as well as track stolen vehicles, remote engine disable, etc.

It goes without saying I drive a Ford, and will continue to do so.

[ChrisH]

There's a lot of issues with ADS-B, but the one that frightens me the most is safety. ATC is only responsible for seperation of IFR traffic from each other (all good, all on ADS-B and tracking) but that VFR target that didn't comply is now invisible, ATC isn't responsible and the ground radar sites that used to paint that target will be decommissioned (isn't that the true value of the program). 

[ryoder]

They shouldn't disable primary radar because I doubt the Chinese and Russians will equip adsb on their fighters and bombers when they attack.

[mike_elliott]

Exactly, Chris.  We all cherish our rights.  But too few of us accept with equal fervor our responsibilities.  Voluntarily hanging up one's car keys inspite of the fact that one still has a valid drivers license is a great example of taking responsibility for one's self.  That is actually one of the many things that I love about being a private pilot.  We self-regulate all of the time, and when we are up there no one is reponsible for us but ourselves.  

 Not to hijack this thread, but this is the whole premise of ditching the 3rd class medical. We still have the fiduciary duty to self certify ourselves every flight, but for some reason, that just isn't good enough when layered in bureaucracy, because that is what a bureaucracy does best.

[donkaye]

After not having traffic displayed since I started flying,  getting both active and passive ADS-B traffic with TargetTrend is a game changer for me.  I am glad to have it and won't waste any time on the irrelevant.

[Sabremech]

Hi Don,

 What works for one doesn't work for all. Might be irrelevant to you, but is a significant cost versus benefit to many of us.

 David

[Piloto]

Will Air Force One have ADS-B out? ADS-B out will make it much easier for the terrorist to track it and knock it down. If Obama is not having it why should I?

José

[ryoder]

Hi Don,

 What works for one doesn't work for all. Might be irrelevant to you, but is a significant cost versus benefit to many of us.

 David

True. My flying dollar is stretched thin and I have decided to forget about avionics upgrades and fly old school so that I can afford the hobby. Adsb forces my hand for little to no benefit. I fly in bravo all the time and atc knows exactly where I am with my mode c. People who want traffic can pick me up. I don't feel like shelling out ten thousand to have a 15 year old 430W installed and another four thousand to have a new adsb transponder hooked up to it. I'd rather fly victor airways, vfr GPS, and radar vectors than dump that kind of money into a 50 year old airplane I can barely justify owning.

[Piloto]

True. My flying dollar is stretched thin and I have decided to forget about avionics upgrades and fly old school so that I can afford the hobby. Adsb forces my hand for little to no benefit. I fly in bravo all the time and atc knows exactly where I am with my mode c. People who want traffic can pick me up. I don't feel like shelling out ten thousand to have a 15 year old 430W installed and another four thousand to have a new adsb transponder hooked up to it. I'd rather fly victor airways, vfr GPS, and radar vectors than dump that kind of money into a 50 year old airplane I can barely justify owning.

ADS-B lobbyist don't like you. They prefer big spenders.

[BKlott]

My plane could use a new paint job and an interior job. On top of that I am facing a large ADS-B bill as I do not have a Mode S transponder or a panel mount WAAS GPS. Yes, I could spend about $4,000 including installation for absolutely no benefit other than to continue flying as I presently do or I could spend about $9,000 and get the Lynx 9000 and have ADS-B In and Out.

To complicate my decision is the fact that I am on Special Issuance and unless I get renewed again, my flying privileges expire November 30th. It's hard for me to justify incurring any of these big bills when I only have 5+ months of flying left.

If Medical reform passes, then I can reasonably expect another 15 - 20 years of flying and I don't mind spending the money to fix the plane up nice and equip it for the future. Until Medical reform is resolved one way or the other, I am in a holding pattern as far as spending any significant amount of money on this hobby.

[Sabremech]

The real relevance is how many of us will chose to exit aviation as the mandates keep coming under the guise of safety.

 David

[bonal]

hopefully the cost point will come down by mandate time (not much hope) I recon I will just stay under 10k and out of Charlie and Bravo as long as Delta is OK I should be able to manage. Its ironic we talk about our freedom to fly never in my life have I been involved in an activity that is more regulated and restricted. Its the ultimate oxymoron

[ryoder]

My plane could use a new paint job and an interior job. On top of that I am facing a large ADS-B bill as I do not have a Mode S transponder or a panel mount WAAS GPS. Yes, I could spend about $4,000 including installation for absolutely no benefit other than to continue flying as I presently do or I could spend about $9,000 and get the Lynx 9000 and have ADS-B In and Out.

To complicate my decision is the fact that I am on Special Issuance and unless I get renewed again, my flying privileges expire November 30th. It's hard for me to justify incurring any of these big bills when I only have 5+ months of flying left.

If Medical reform passes, then I can reasonably expect another 15 - 20 years of flying and I don't mind spending the money to fix the plane up nice and equip it for the future. Until Medical reform is resolved one way or the other, I am in a holding pattern as far as spending any significant amount of money on this hobby.

Motorglider

[BKlott]

Try packing your bags and taking a trip in a motor glider.

FYI...I do have a Glider Rating and could resume flying sailplanes if my Medical gets denied. Of course, anyone who knows anything about thermalling sailplanes will tell you that is a far more physically demanding type of flying activity than what I experience in flying my airplane. Yet, the brain trust in Oklahoma City does not require any medical testing or evaluation for those who fly gliders. Something else to think about!

[1964-M20E]

hopefully the cost point will come down by mandate time (not much hope) I recon I will just stay under 10k and out of Charlie and Bravo as long as Delta is OK I should be able to manage. Its ironic we talk about our freedom to fly never in my life have I been involved in an activity that is more regulated and restricted. Its the ultimate oxymoron

Unfortunately I cannot avoid Class B or C all of my flights from home originate under the Mode C veil usually within 2 miles of the Class B airport and many terminate in Bravo airspace.  However, I have already made the decision to move forward with an ADSB-out solution in conjunction with a new GPS NAV/COM

[ryoder]

I am waiting for the official waiver forms to be published.

[bonal]

If they would raise the altitude limit to 17999 I think most would be able to go without I cant figure out how they came up with 10k feet

[Hank]

Agreed completely. I would be happy if they would just raise it to 12,500' so that the same no oxygen VFR cruising altitudes would still be available to me. I rarely make use of the 14,000' for 30 minutes rule and could live without it. That having been said, I am pretty sure that the 10,000' ceiling came from the current mode C rules. That is the altitude above which you have to have a transponder/encoder.

Jim

But we are required to keep the transponder . . . I also don't understand or appreciate the 10,000' limit without the new box. I also have no panel space to mount anything for the -In portion, so unless I use a tablet in my lap, there are zero benefits to me. My 430W screen is far to small to show much weather or traffic . . .

It's just more govt regulations, where I spend my money to keep them from maintaining radar units. Isn't it nice when they push their costs to us? Wish I could do that with some of my expenses, find someone else to pay them. Reckon the city or county would enjoy cutting my grass so I can sell my mower, gas cans, etc.? At no cost to me, of course. And keep it cut and trimmed the way I like it . . .