Do you still practice VOR approaches?

[ArtVandelay]

I'm not sure of the need to practice VORs. If you can track a localizer course, you can track a VOR course. All you add is "dive and drive" for the altitude. Not a big deal.

I use my 2nd nav for VOR (since in real life I would use it if by GPS was down), Since it's not connected to HSI, it's a bit different, different equipment, different display, different enough to throw one in when getting current.

[atn_pilot]

Gotcha. I don't have an HSI even for my GPS feed, so it's the same old school CDI either way for me.

[1964-M20E]

Yes I do.  Only approach I do not do is an NDB because my pane does not have the equipment.

[Shadrach]

Absolutely. The two alternates to my home airport have ILS, VOR and GPS approaches. I have never had a RAIM failure, but I have had my GPS "hiccup" enroute and was glad when it decided to play right again.

 

So besides shooting an ILS/VOR with your GPS, anybody still practice approaches with just a NAV/COM - the infamous NAV2 -  and CDI w/ or w/out GS?

 

John

Yup, quite often.

[romair]

This may be a dumb question. Some VOR approaches can be flown in gps mode, or in vloc mode. What is the difference when i choose one vs the other mode? Is the gps mode more precise?

[carusoam]

VORs have a bit of a naturally scalloped shape to their straight lines...

GPS have a really straight line in comparison...

While flying to a VOR using the VOR, you may notice that the plane is following an arc slightly different than the magenta line.

If hand flying the plane, it may not be noticeable.

Flying with the accuracy of a KAP150, you will be able to see the difference and have the time to think about it while traversing the time and space...

This was a navigation experiment I ran when I first got the O. ...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

This may be a dumb question. Some VOR approaches can be flown in gps mode, or in vloc mode. What is the difference when i choose one vs the other mode? Is the gps mode more precise?

I'm sure someone more familiar with the TERPs requirements can explain why you can't substitute a GPS for a VOR approach. From my casual observation, I only have a VOR approach to my airport.

When I fly it, I set up the HSI to fly the VOR on the primary Aspen and set the second HSI on the second Aspen to monitor the GPS overlay. Watching both, the only discernible difference is the swaying needle on the VOR. I'm sure there is a good reason why the VOR approach hasn't been replaced with some sort of GPS approach. It probably is a TERPs exercise to design it and a required FAA flight test to verify functionality. Guess it is not high on their list...

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[midlifeflyer]

This may be a dumb question. Some VOR approaches can be flown in gps mode, or in vloc mode. What is the difference when i choose one vs the other mode? Is the gps mode more precise?

VLOC "mode" isn't  a mode in which a GPS simulates a VOR. There's a real VOR receiver head in there.

 

The GPS probably is more precise in any given situation but the FAA has taken the position that unless the approach says "GPS" in the title, you may not use it to substitute for the nav source that is in the title for primary lateral guidance along the final approach course.

 

The reason is likely something as basic as "because we haven't tested the approach flying it only with GPS."

[Mooneymite]

 

 you may not use it to substitute for the nav source that is in the title for primary lateral guidance along the final approach course.

 

 

Absolutely true!

 

You must use the nav source indicated on the plate.  I don't know how many times I've seen pilots flying VOR approaches illegally selected to GPS!  Sometimes it's because they forget to switch, sometimes they don't know any better.

 

Interestingly, in most cases, the ground track is close enough to be indistinguishable, but it is not the way to do it according to regs.

[Marauder]

Absolutely true!

You must use the nav source indicated on the plate. I don't know how many times I've seen pilots flying VOR approaches illegally selected to GPS! Sometimes it's because they forget to switch, sometimes they don't know any better.

Interestingly, in most cases, the ground track is close enough to be indistinguishable, but it is not the way to do it according to regs.

For those who are learning IFR and those who are new to VOR approaches flown on a GPS unit, thought I would share some visuals.

When I was making my steam to magenta child transition, it took me a little bit to figure out what the heck the GPS was doing. It was easy to miss the "Hey IDIOT! Switch the signal to VLOC" message if you were flying from the backseat (which I was).

Here are some screen shots:

Heading towards the IAF with the GPS on. Note the "MSG" is on. Easy to miss if you are new to the GPS.

Here is what the "MSG" said (if you are flying an ILS, this can be set to automatically switch to VLOC if you are in the right position):

Once you switch, the only indicator that you are indeed flying the VOR signal is the VLOC on the bottom:

Interestingly, once you get to the MAP, the GPS will take over again and fly the published missed for you:

Here is what it looks like if you don't switch over to VLOC. Other than the "MSG" blinking and the pink "GPS" indicator, you could think you are flying the VOR when indeed you are doing the illegal (in this case) overlay.

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[DonMuncy]

I hate to quibble, but the GPS doesn't fly the "missed approach procedure". It will fly direct to the named fix in the "missed". In most cases, that would work fine, but it is incumbent on the pilot to fly the procedure, as it is possible there is an obstruction between the missed approach point on the next fix.

[midlifeflyer]

Here is what the "MSG" said (if you are flying an ILS, this can be set to automatically switch to VLOC if you are in the right position):

 

 

Emphasis on "if" which depends on unit, position and settings. I think it best to think in terms of when to make the switch as a personal SOP (if you use the 5T mnemonic aid, think of it as part of the "Twist")  even if it's only to confirm that the unit is doing it properly.

 

 

 

Interestingly, once you get to the MAP, the GPS will take over again and fly the published missed for you:

 

"Talking over" for the missed also depends on unit, position and settings. For example, the general Garmin standard when the unit does not include altitude information for approach segments is to suspend automatic sequencing for the missed so that on those "climb to 1,000 then left climbing turn to 2,000" misseds the unit doesn't start sending you to the missed approach hold (and that terrain in the way) prematurely - that's the "remain suspended?" question on the 650/750; just a  SUSP annunciation on the 430/530.  That switch - making or confirming - should  also should be part of a personal SOP.

 

But otherwise, just like procedure turns, etc, GPS can be used for any segment of an approach other than primary lateral guidance on the FAC. 

[midlifeflyer]

I hate to quibble, but the GPS doesn't fly the "missed approach procedure". It will fly direct to the named fix in the "missed". In most cases, that would work fine, but it is incumbent on the pilot to fly the procedure, as it is possible there is an obstruction between the missed approach point on the next fix.

 

Yep - the "Do you want to stay suspended" question that pops up on the GTN

[MooneyBob]

For those who are learning IFR and those who are new to VOR approaches flown on a GPS unit, thought I would share some visuals.

When I was making my steam to magenta child transition, it took me a little bit to figure out what the heck the GPS was doing. It was easy to miss the "Hey IDIOT! Switch the signal to VLOC" message if you were flying from the backseat (which I was).

Here are some screen shots:

Heading towards the IAF with the GPS on. Note the "MSG" is on. Easy to miss if you are new to the GPS.

Here is what the "MSG" said (if you are flying an ILS, this can be set to automatically switch to VLOC if you are in the right position):

Once you switch, the only indicator that you are indeed flying the VOR signal is the VLOC on the bottom:

Interestingly, once you get to the MAP, the GPS will take over again and fly the published missed for you:

Here is what it looks like if you don't switch over to VLOC. Other than the "MSG" blinking and the pink "GPS" indicator, you could think you are flying the VOR when indeed you are doing the illegal (in this case) overlay.

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Thanks for the visual. But here is the question. How do you simulate the flight on the GTN750 simulator? I can't figure that out. Thanks.

[Marauder]

I hate to quibble, but the GPS doesn't fly the "missed approach procedure". It will fly direct to the named fix in the "missed". In most cases, that would work fine, but it is incumbent on the pilot to fly the procedure, as it is possible there is an obstruction between the missed approach point on the next fix.

Let's quibble! But as long as it is not about to land with flaps or not.

The missed procedures I have flown do incorporate some degree of warning but I do agree that as PIC you better know what is ahead.

I flew this approach (W29) on Sunday and was pleasantly surprised by the GTN giving me a warning of the tower on the Bay Bridge and my Garmin Pilot (rightly or wrongly) yelling "Terrain, terrain". In the old days, if I didn't pay close attention to the charts, I may have missed the obstacles. Is it perfect, heck no. But it sure beats relying on paper alone.

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[Marauder]

Thanks for the visual. But here is the question. How do you simulate the flight on the GTN750 simulator? I can't figure that out. Thanks.

When you start it, there is a "Demo" button.

Hit it and then hit the "GPS" button and then the "Waypoint". You can select a spot you want to start at.

After selecting the starting waypoint, you can then go to the Nav screen to select your initial speed, altitude and descent rate.

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[Marauder]

Thanks for the visual. But here is the question. How do you simulate the flight on the GTN750 simulator? I can't figure that out. Thanks.

Better yet, let's do a NJ Mooney fly-in this weekend and I can show you real time.

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[MooneyBob]

Better yet, let's do a NJ Mooney fly-in this weekend and I can show you real time.

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I am pretty sure I will figure out before the weekend but the fly-in is the good idea. I was wondering why no one is proposing one. Are we waiting until the winter hits again?

[Marauder]

I am pretty sure I will figure out before the weekend but the fly-in is the good idea. I was wondering why no one is proposing one. Are we waiting until the winter hits again?

Nah, we tend to wait for "Stinky Pants" aka "Parrot Boy" to say "Anyone one want to get together this weekend?" That said, Alan was the last one to initiate a get together at Easton.

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[ryoder]

All I have is vor, dme, ils, adf so hell yeah this is my bread and butter. The PIE VOR is out of service right now but I fly into LAL for practice approaches and love the VOR because it is easy to do and I get to chop and drop instead of stressing about vertical navigation on the ILS.

[MooneyBob]

Nah, we tend to wait for "Stinky Pants" aka "Parrot Boy" to say "Anyone one want to get together this weekend?" That said, Alan was the last one to initiate a get together at Easton.

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Email sent out. We'll see.

[ryoder]

Faa is closing a bunch of approaches including vor at st Pete and Sarasota. Sucks.

[ryoder]

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/procedures/reports/media/SIAPs_Propose_Cancel_20150327.xls

[MooneyBob]

That was my real question:

 

Do you keep that horse in the barn just in case the car doesn't start in the morning?

[carusoam]

My favorite VOR approach is on that list. Soleburg, NJ...

Best regards,

-a-