mschmuff Posted April 8, 2015 Report Posted April 8, 2015 I have a mission specific question. I know there are endless posts about turbo Vs NA and Rocket/Ovation/Eagle/Missile discussions. I currently have an awesome F model. New P & I, Cent III A/P, 430W, EDM730, HSI, Tanks resealed, new biscuits, etc. I fly 95nm to work. 152kts TAS at 4000ft burning 10.3gph. No brainer – the perfect plane for the mission!! I have an opportunity to move to SC but want to keep working in DC. I can’t give up being a GA guy and being able to fly up the Potomac at 200ft between the Washington Monument and the Jefferson, over the Tidal Basin and split the P’s!! So the mission would be KCHS – 2W6 (365nm). Every week - once up, stay the week – once back. Home for a week then repeat. All year - Winter/Summer. My budget is approx.. $150k. I like the simplicity of NA (Missile/Eagle/Older Ovation) but with the need to “have to go” I like the turbo to get over WX and TKS/FIKI would probably be a must. From what I have sceen, NA with TKS are $200k+ where 231’s, 252’s and Rockets are easily acquired for $150k or less! Rule #1 – I do not want this to get into a debate of FIKI Vs Non-FIKI!! I get it! I’m not going to launch into moderate to severe anything!! But I’d like to have the protection if I get into something inadvertent. 90% of the time it will only be me. The other 10% will be wife and daughter (an extra 250lbs combined). I know maintenance will be less with the NA....but saving $75K on the purchase pays for a lot of maintenance. Also, I have been at 10,000ft in my F and picked up ice and only had about 300ft/min climb to get out....pretty F'n scary!! Thoughts?? Quote
Yooper Rocketman Posted April 8, 2015 Report Posted April 8, 2015 Ouch. This could get testy. I moved from an F to a Rocket, but would have bought a 252 at the time if I had found one in my price range (2001 before the price crash on GA planes). I like the Rocket, love the performance, but if objective, I think the operating costs on the R are more, at least the fuel burn to comparable, not much slower, Mooneys. I fly a FIKI Bonanza, and have flown two non-FIKI TKS planes. Interestingly enough, the only system to ever fail me in serious icing was the FIKI one. But.....the second alternator on th FIKI Bo saved my bacon last winter. I will share that story some other time. Quote
carusoam Posted April 8, 2015 Report Posted April 8, 2015 So, what is the question...? The type of flying you intend to do is benefitted by both turbo and FIKI... A full slate of Nav equipment. More digital displays is better than less... The rest is how much you want to afford... Did I miss something? Even with all this equipment, there will still be no/go days...(this note is for other people not familiar....) Best regards, -a- Quote
aviatoreb Posted April 8, 2015 Report Posted April 8, 2015 I can't tell what you are asking. I can say I got a fantastic deal on a TKS rocket 5 years ago at a moment when the market was still soft and the economy was still poor. It serves me well. I really like the turbo for just reason you said, which is fantastic climb to escape ice if I ever screw up and find inadvertent. Inadvertent tks also fits my mission. I have found ice when it is not supposed to be there and I was happy to have the tool to clean the wing and the power to get way quickly. 1 Quote
mschmuff Posted April 9, 2015 Author Report Posted April 9, 2015 Sorry - Question....Do I go with the NA and try to find a deal on something that has TKS? For the few times I would need it just suck it up and wait a day and go NA with non-TKS? Is the maintenance cost not that different and go turbo? DO I go 231 or 252 with or without TKS and save some $$. Buy a Rocket with TKS because it is totally badass?? Look for a deal on a Bravo - actually found one with TKS asking $149K.... Quote
carusoam Posted April 9, 2015 Report Posted April 9, 2015 Go long body! PPI at an MSC is critical for the low cost FIKI TC'd bird.... The Bravo prefers ROP compared to other planes with Continentals... Thinking out loud, -a- Quote
M016576 Posted April 9, 2015 Report Posted April 9, 2015 A bravo or R/S is the only FIKI TKS system you're going to find that fits what you describe- except your price point is a bit low for those. If you're going that route, the overall costs are greater than any NA bird as well. I own a TKS'd missile- I use it how you describe: insurance for inadvertent icing encounters. And I've had them... They are not uncommon out here in Oregon. Not many TKS'd K's that are FIKI- but there are some out there. Sounds like that's what you want and you've already made up your mind: now all you have to do is find one! Quote
Danb Posted April 9, 2015 Report Posted April 9, 2015 I have to agree with Anthony re the long body, for your flying I would think the FIKI is more important than the turbo and that's coming from a Bravo owner who owned 2 J models in the past. For 150-200 your going to find an awesome plane, let the prior owner pay for the avionics you want and the FIKI you'll need since its business let the prior owner eat up the depreciable costs, like buying a 1 or 2 Yr old car in excellent condition.got to be cool taking that flight you be doing. Re icing I'm sure Anthony's Ovation can power up and onward. Just an opinion of which there are many,good luck and get an awesome bird... Quote
aviatoreb Posted April 9, 2015 Report Posted April 9, 2015 About 6 months ago - I saw a tks Beech Baron - which is a rare beast since most de-iced Barons are running boots. This one was on part 135 a mail carrier. It had no furniture in the back - just two pilot seats. But mid time engines despite only about a year old - meaning this thing was being used - it was a bit rough in the paint but looked like solid avionics engines and overall - just what you would hope from a freight dog. I think it was about 15,000hrs. It was selling for something 60k! Not bad for a twin fiki machine. I would have been tempted if I had noticed that 5 years ago. I know a twin is more expensive to maintain and feed but at some point the savings in hull value has to be worth something. Quote
Danb Posted April 9, 2015 Report Posted April 9, 2015 Dave. Very well said...knowledge experience is invaluable and insights like yours are great for our forum.. 1 Quote
Yooper Rocketman Posted April 9, 2015 Report Posted April 9, 2015 Just for a reference on value, the last Bonanza our mercy flight org bought was purchased with an "at TBO" engine. We (well the guys flying big iron anyway) wanted a FIKI plane to protect their licenses should they get into some crap. Cav Aerospace will NOT install a FIKI system on a modified airframe, and we wanted the Tornado Alley upgrade. So...... We bought the bird and had the FIKI system installed first, and then the Tornado Alley engine job later. The Bonanza we sold had a non-FIKI system installed about 3 years prior for $25k. The FIKI install on the newer airframe ran just shy of $50k. Quote
M20F Posted April 9, 2015 Report Posted April 9, 2015 If managed properly there really isn't that much cost difference between a NA and a turbo airplane when it comes to maintainence. I would just look for the 252, Ovation, etc. that had the most of what you want for the price. While there are deals out there the ones with TKS, great radios, etc. don't seem to be as common for sale anymore so what you can find might be the main decider. Quote
chrisk Posted April 9, 2015 Report Posted April 9, 2015 I'm not a high time pilot and I don't have much ice experience. I've picked up ice a time or two in a 172, and it felt like the prop was going to fall off. There was no climbing out of that. And in my K, I picked up a little clear ice once, as I descended through a cold layer on an approach. Here are my thoughts: I think a plane with TKS should be your top priority. Generally the 231's and 252's have hot props, which are nice, because they can let you climb out of ice. And you can also top a lot of weather (IMC, not thunder storms). The Rocket would be even better, with a higher ceiling and 1.5X to 2x the climb performance. But the problem with these is you still have to pass through a layer (up or down) with potential icing. I would think TKS would help for these cases. Likewise, a NA Mooney with a large engine and TKS should also do OK. With that said, I don't think you can really count on a 100% dispatch rate. When the icing predictions have "SLD" in the forecast, I wouldn't want to be up in a FIKI Mooney. 1 Quote
M20F Posted April 9, 2015 Report Posted April 9, 2015 And you can also top a lot of weather (IMC, not thunder storms) Usually you can get up high enough to where you can see the cells and navigate around them safely which is a good advantage of a turbo versus NA. Even in what I would call tame IMC I still like to climb on top so I can see what's ahead and limit my workload by not being forced onto instruments for long periods of time. Quote
M20F-1968 Posted April 9, 2015 Report Posted April 9, 2015 How about this twist. You have a nice F which you know and like. Put a turbo normalizer on your F. Save about $80,000 - $100,000 in the process and fly commercially on the 10% of flights for the year when icing is an issue. The turbo is, based on percentage of expected use, the more valuable piece of equipment as you may only use the TKS 5% of the time. Keep the plane you know since there is always an added cost in getting any new aircraft to the condition you want it to be in. Further, the TKS has some maintenance involved. I have a RayJay system, rebuilt with all paperwork which you could have for less than $15,000. If you were interested, I am sure we could find a price point that works for both of us. I have all documentation necessary and the install would take about 40 hrs. With this system installed the F model is a 170 kt airplane or better at 17,000, service ceiling is 20,000. Fuel burn would be 11 gal/hr. Maintenance costs would be no more than your present plane and TBO would be unchanged. John Breda e-mail: john.breda@gmail.com Cell: (617) 877-0025 2 Quote
chrisk Posted April 9, 2015 Report Posted April 9, 2015 Usually you can get up high enough to where you can see the cells and navigate around them safely which is a good advantage of a turbo versus NA. Even in what I would call tame IMC I still like to climb on top so I can see what's ahead and limit my workload by not being forced onto instruments for long periods of time. This is my preferred way to fly as well. However, I do find those times (usually headed west) that I'll opt for a lower altitude due to winds and end up in the soup. As for topping weather, it is very nice to see where the thunder storms are. And for the summer pop up type storms, getting up on top works really well. For fronts and squall lines, you may have difficulty finding a way around them, and tops are regularly above 30,000 ft, so your not going over that. Quote
mschmuff Posted April 9, 2015 Author Report Posted April 9, 2015 I like the TN idea, it is definitely the most cost effective but doesn't help with the TKS. Flying commercially isn't an option since the base is over 1.5hrs from a commercial airport. I can usually change my shift by a day with one of the other pilots to avoid really bad weather. With the distance only being approx 350 miles the difference between going 185kts (231/252) Vs 210kts (Rocket) is like 12 minutes. I agree that the real challenge will be finding the properly maintained and properly equipped aircraft and that all three would fit the mission. Quote
Will W Posted April 9, 2015 Report Posted April 9, 2015 Well, you definitely seem the perfect guy to get into a partnership with in an Ovation. I'm trying to form one around JYO. The long and the short of it is that 150k isn't enough for you to afford a known icing airplane. https://www.caviceprotection.com/products-services/ice-protection-systems/mooney-fiki Cav says you can have a FIKI K, M, R, S, and TN I've been searching for quite sometime for a known icing K model but the only ones I find are the R models and they are all around 235k for the non G-1000. Being that I fly in and out of this area year round, known icing in the R has been a 100% success rate + or - 1 day or so. I've climbed to 17k and ridden a great tail wind above a smaller frontal system getting 270+ knots over the ground. I'd honestly find someone to do a time share in your plane where when it's not being used, they can use it. Monthly cost and hourly cost if you wanted to try and swing it. Otherwise, the best aircraft for this mission really is the R model. If you want any other stories on the year round flying I've done in it, let me know. Quote
mpg Posted April 10, 2015 Report Posted April 10, 2015 I have a mission specific question. I know there are endless posts about turbo Vs NA and Rocket/Ovation/Eagle/Missile discussions. I currently have an awesome F model. New P & I, Cent III A/P, 430W, EDM730, HSI, Tanks resealed, new biscuits, etc. I fly 95nm to work. 152kts TAS at 4000ft burning 10.3gph. No brainer – the perfect plane for the mission!! I have an opportunity to move to SC but want to keep working in DC. I can’t give up being a GA guy and being able to fly up the Potomac at 200ft between the Washington Monument and the Jefferson, over the Tidal Basin and split the P’s!! So the mission would be KCHS – 2W6 (365nm). Every week - once up, stay the week – once back. Home for a week then repeat. All year - Winter/Summer. My budget is approx.. $150k. I like the simplicity of NA (Missile/Eagle/Older Ovation) but with the need to “have to go” I like the turbo to get over WX and TKS/FIKI would probably be a must. From what I have sceen, NA with TKS are $200k+ where 231’s, 252’s and Rockets are easily acquired for $150k or less! Rule #1 – I do not want this to get into a debate of FIKI Vs Non-FIKI!! I get it! I’m not going to launch into moderate to severe anything!! But I’d like to have the protection if I get into something inadvertent. 90% of the time it will only be me. The other 10% will be wife and daughter (an extra 250lbs combined). I know maintenance will be less with the NA....but saving $75K on the purchase pays for a lot of maintenance. Also, I have been at 10,000ft in my F and picked up ice and only had about 300ft/min climb to get out....pretty F'n scary!! Thoughts?? I have read all the responses to the OPs ideals for a plane with better protection on flights that may need icing protection, soooo I offer this for talking points to come.... 1981 MOONEY M20K 231 • $132,500 • PRICE REDUCED • 1981 Mooney M20K 231 N97353 w/ the Trophy 252 upgrade. 3628 TT A/F. 100 SMOH by Mena Aircraft Engines w/ New TCM Cylinders. MT Composite Prop: 39.0 SNEW. PS Engineering 7000 B Audio, Garmin GNS 650 Touchscreen GPS, Garmin GMX 200 MFD, Garmin GDL 69 XM Weather, Garmin SL 30 Nav/Com, Garmin GTX 327 txpd, King KFC 200 A/P F/D. Speed Brakes, Built in Oxygen, TKS Anti Ice System, PS Engineering CD Player, 75.6 gal fuel, JPI EDM 700 Engine Monitor. All Logs. Going through annual now. • SEE COMPLETE DETAILS HERE • ContactDarryl Riddell - SOUTH DELTA AVIATION located Fayetteville, AR USA • Telephone: 479-935-4891 870-572-9011 . • Fax: 870-572-6005 • Posted March 31, 2015 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend •Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • View Larger Pictures Quote
Cris Posted April 10, 2015 Report Posted April 10, 2015 One consideration is maintenance cost. I have a friend with an FIKI R model. He rarely uses it in ice and it's there "just in case" Problem is that it has been very expensive to maintain. I think he has replaced the tank twice at 5k each plus the pump and other bits and pieces. More to the point just when he needs it is when it stops working and he is left on the ground. Funny how that works. Given the option a 310 HP S/R model gets you 60% power thru 18K and faster climb to get above weather. Might be another option and/or stay on the ground when iceing is around. On the other hand if cost is not an issue...... Quote
AndyFromCB Posted April 10, 2015 Report Posted April 10, 2015 Buy a Bravo. They are the best deal in GA, bar none…OR buy a 210. Ton of Turbo 210s with TKS. FIKI or non-FIKI doesn't really matter in a Mooney as the panel coverage is the same unlike Cirrus. If you want to go with TKS, you really want to go with Turbo. Here is why. TKS requires a minimum climb speed of 120knots when in icing. Bravo can easily give you 700fpm all the way to 18,000 at this speed. Ovation, well, not so much once you get past about 8000 feet. Quote
AndyFromCB Posted April 10, 2015 Report Posted April 10, 2015 One consideration is maintenance cost. I have a friend with an FIKI R model. He rarely uses it in ice and it's there "just in case" Problem is that it has been very expensive to maintain. I think he has replaced the tank twice at 5k each plus the pump and other bits and pieces. More to the point just when he needs it is when it stops working and he is left on the ground. Funny how that works. Given the option a 310 HP S/R model gets you 60% power thru 18K and faster climb to get above weather. Might be another option and/or stay on the ground when iceing is around. On the other hand if cost is not an issue...... Problem is more likely than not that he just doesn't use it often enough. You have to run it once a month. My Bravo has about 3700 hours on it. TKS pump had to be replaced once according to logs, no other problems. Just run it once a month to keep everything wet and lubricated. What happen to the tank that he had to replace it twice? It's a piece of plastic IIRC? Quote
chrisk Posted April 10, 2015 Report Posted April 10, 2015 I have read all the responses to the OPs ideals for a plane with better protection on flights that may need icing protection, soooo I offer this for talking points to come.... 1981 MOONEY M20K 231 • $132,500 • PRICE REDUCED • 1981 Mooney M20K 231 N97353 w/ the Trophy 252 upgrade. 3628 TT A/F. 100 SMOH by Mena Aircraft Engines w/ New TCM Cylinders. MT Composite Prop: 39.0 SNEW. PS Engineering 7000 B Audio, Garmin GNS 650 Touchscreen GPS, Garmin GMX 200 MFD, Garmin GDL 69 XM Weather, Garmin SL 30 Nav/Com, Garmin GTX 327 txpd, King KFC 200 A/P F/D. Speed Brakes, Built in Oxygen, TKS Anti Ice System, PS Engineering CD Player, 75.6 gal fuel, JPI EDM 700 Engine Monitor. All Logs. Going through annual now. • SEE COMPLETE DETAILS HERE • ContactDarryl Riddell - SOUTH DELTA AVIATION located Fayetteville, AR USA • Telephone: 479-935-4891 870-572-9011 . • Fax: 870-572-6005 • Posted March 31, 2015 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend •Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • View Larger Pictures I'd love to upgrade to a plane with TKS and a MB engine. So, I emailed the broker. I am still stunned that the useful load is 742 lbs. Approximately 230 lbs less than my 231. Quote
M20F Posted April 10, 2015 Report Posted April 10, 2015 If you want to go with TKS, you really want to go with Turbo. Here is why. TKS requires a minimum climb speed of 120knots when in icing. Bravo can easily give you 700fpm all the way to 18,000 at this speed. Ovation, well, not so much once you get past about 8000 feet. Not to start a huge debate over the 1% but for the most part icing you encounter in GA is going to be limited by a couple of thousand feet to where you get up/down to get through it and it tends to not go on for 100's of miles. All things being equal I want a 747, but don't think a turbo is necessary for ice avoidance and generally the only time I have picked up ice in the FL's is the summer where descending fixes the problem quickly. Likewise in the winter once you get a couple of degrees below 0 the icing stops (again minus the 1% who want to fly through freezing rain or other such things). Quote
jlunseth Posted April 10, 2015 Report Posted April 10, 2015 I have a 231. If you need FIKI that is not your bird, because FIKI cannot be installed in the 231, nor in the Rocket. They can install inadvertent, but what does that get you? A chance to exit with some protection, but the legal question whether you should ever have been there in the first place will always be there. If you need to fly a particular trip on a schedule, I don't think there is any choice other than FIKI, and I would certainly want the turbo to be able to get above whatever the cloud cover is. The problem with winter cloud cover is that it may not be thick, and you may indeed be able to climb quickly through it with little risk of accumulating much ice, but eventually you must come down and invariably that thin layer is right at the altitude that ATC is going to give you to fly your approach. You wind up in the stuff way too long. If you are lucky you can sometimes get ATC to let you stay above it until the last minute and then dive down through it to catch the approach, but that is not going to work everywhere or all the time. The other thing to consider is the ability to get to still air during the summer. The "popcorn cumulus" usually ends at about 16, and it is well worth it if you are going to make long trips to be able to overtop that and not put up with the jostling around in the clag, and the possibility of an embedded Tstorm that you can't see when you are in the stuff, but you can certainly see and skirt if you are above it. Quote
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