Another,, "Should I buy this Mooney" thread

[Shadrach]

So the best way to save money is to defer maintenance, avoid upgrades, and sell the plane to a sucker who will pay for it. That kind of sucks.

I'm not that cynical, but given some of the post I've seen, I can see why people are. I've seen older, uglier, and higher time machines that have been neglected live to fly again.

With a plane like this it is kind of a "if you have to ask"...it's probably not for you.

As for it never flying again. It would take me about 8 hrs to figure out if I was comfortable flying Day VFR to a nearby place for closer inspection. It's an old Mooney with simple systems. The engine either has corrosion issues or it does not. It's likely that the cam and lifters are pitted, if they are, why not just split the case and IRAN the engine. What is this plane worth if the airframe is clean? If not $15,500 is 12,500 enough...10,000. Perhaps the owner should pay someone to take it?

[ryoder]

I feel like each owner should keep the plain dry, airworthy, and sprinkle in some value add to it over time as budget allows. That is what I plan to do and when I sell it the next guy can pick up where I left off with an airworthy airplane that he can fly safely and make some upgrades and long term repairs. For example, the previous owner spent 4k on the annual when I bought it. I resealed tanks, replaced nav com 2, and put in a new windshield and tires. I am now fixing the loose transponder and non working engine instruments. Next up is some basic interior work, not super luxury but more like refurbishing anything broken or cracked or yellowing. People that don't so stuff like this ame just fly it into the ground before selling it are getting some bad karma or something imho.

[MyNameIsNobody]

I feel like an owner can do anthing he/she wants with his/her plane...That said, I also feel they should have zero expectation of selling a plane for $10 grand that will likely require a $30 grand infusion to get it airworthy and reliable when it is only going to be worth $35 grand to the next buyer...Is what it is. No "barn find" Mooney's that are worth big bucks for the "investment" of time and money. You have to have a love of ownership to step into the bottomless money sucking pit that is Mooney ownership. I did/do...

It's a broken record. If it has not flown regularly expect to be paying for a major overhaul. Get a pre-buy and ensure that tubes, spar, wings an fuselage have no serious corrosion issues. If tanks seap deduct for a re-seal. If radio's and avionics are old...plan for one to die at a bad time...like popcorn. Plan on $1500 for insurance and $1500-5grand for annuals....Here that sucking sound? That is your cash. Worth it? Yes, if you love Mooney's. I did/do. More fun with a partner or partners to share the pain...I mean passion with...

[Andy95W]

I feel like each owner should keep the plain dry, airworthy, and sprinkle in some value add to it over time as budget allows. That is what I plan to do and when I sell it the next guy can pick up where I left off with an airworthy airplane that he can fly safely and make some upgrades and long term repairs. For example, the previous owner spent 4k on the annual when I bought it. I resealed tanks, replaced nav com 2, and put in a new windshield and tires. I am now fixing the loose transponder and non working engine instruments. Next up is some basic interior work, not super luxury but more like refurbishing anything broken or cracked or yellowing. People that don't so stuff like this ame just fly it into the ground before selling it are getting some bad karma or something imho.

+1

If someone wishes to run a 1998 M20J into the ground and turn it into a piece of crap, so be it. But at some point, I believe we do become caretakers of our aircraft, and we owe it to our fellow pilots and Mooney lovers, as well as the next generation, to pass along airplanes that are better than when we got them. Mine is 51 now and better than when I got her.

[orionflt]

This airplane is only a couple of serial numbers from mine. the gauge you see below the flap handle is for the flap position, there is also a trim indicator in the same area. As marauder mentioned earlier there are plenty of us in the area who will be willing to take a cursory look at this plane for you. I can also help you with the preby if you would like.

 

Brian

[gsxrpilot]

So the best way to save money is to defer maintenance, avoid upgrades, and sell the plane to a sucker who will pay for it. That kind of sucks.

Sorry, I didn't mean to infer this at all.  My only point is that if there are two M20C's for sale. One is $50K and the other is $25K. It would likely take 100K to get it to the same condition as the $50K bird. Therefore, the best money is to buy the $50K example. You'll probably still have some restoration to do, but you're starting much higher up the ladder.

 

I started looking at $20 to $30K Mooney's and after learning the market I bought a $50K M20C. And I've continued to improve it from there. I've added a nice engine monitor, AOA, and addressed some very minor squawks, but squawks none the less. Someday when I sell it to buy a Rocket :-), it will still just be a $50K airplane, but will be better than when I started.

[Mooneymite]

If you buy a $15,500 '62 Mooney and pour a ton of money into it, you will still have a '62 Mooney.  There's only so much "book value" you can add to an elderly airplane.

 

I am a big proponent of "buy the airplane you want to end up with".  Every used airplane on Barnstormers and Trade a Plane is being sold at a huge discount compared to before the great recession.  However, Aircraft Spruce, Mooney AirCraft, Garmin, King, and all the other parts sources still get full retail for the stuff you need to repair/replace/"up-grade".

 

If you just want to do stuff yourself, have a blast, but understand that it's going to cost you more in the long run.

 

Buy a plane that someone else has already poured money into and save yourself a headache and some cash.

[BKlott]

Lots of good feedback here already. You already know it needs paint and probably needs engine and prop after sitting for five years. You're not going to do that and not do the carb, oil cooler, mags, plugs, hoses, etc. That's two of the big four expenses right there. The other two are avionics and interior. With ADS-B coming, you will be spending money on your panel just getting the avionics squared away. Those instruments have been sitting too so I hope you know of a good instrument shop to get them working right.

If the airframe has corrosion, well don't bother with any of the above. I saw this ad too and my first thought was "beyond economic

repair"...

For fun (and education) see if you can locate an old article in EAA Sport Aviation magazine archives titled "Dreams derailed". It was a two part story of a couple that purchased an early model Bonanza. They had a pre-buy done but still ended up spending into six figures to get the airplane squared away. That was a $20,000 early model Bonanza they purchased that they ended up having more than $100,000 into.

Brian

[Shadrach]

Why on earth would it need a prop? The current one has zero time? Do you think sitting outside for 5 years has destroyed the prop? If it throws grease for more than an hour or 2 send back for a reseal ~$500.

[BKlott]

Would you go through the expense to overhaul the engine and not check the prop that has sat unused for five years?

So, if the engine had been overhauled five years ago and left to sit, unused for that time, would you think that the engine would still be good simply because it is zero time since overhaul?

The TBO on new constant speed propellors is either five or six years per the manufacturers.

[Hank]

Why on earth would it need a prop? The current one has zero time? Do you think sitting outside for 5 years has destroyed the prop? If it throws grease for more than an hour or 2 send back for a reseal ~$500.

Props have seals and oil lines. The blades are probably good. Flush the old, hard grease out of the hub, check the gaskets and seals, etc. if the prop was fixed pitch, it wouldn't be a problem.

[Shadrach]

Props have seals and oil lines. The blades are probably good. Flush the old, hard grease out of the hub, check the gaskets and seals, etc. if the prop was fixed pitch, it wouldn't be a problem.

Odds are it won't be a problem for this one either. Props have seals, I know that you're referring to the line that runs from the governer to the the front of the case. I don't replace mine every 5 years, do you? If not, why? Is it all those heat cycles and vibration that keep it in good running order or is it the several times a month that it sees 190-210df engine oil?

[Shadrach]

Would you go through the expense to overhaul the engine and not check the prop that has sat unused for five years?

So, if the engine had been overhauled five years ago and left to sit, unused for that time, would you think that the engine would still be good simply because it is zero time since overhaul?

The TBO on new constant speed propellors is either five or six years per the manufacturers.

I too am familiar with the manufactures TBO recommendations. TBO is not regulatory and in a case like this a complete overhaul would be a total waste. Are you familiar with what a prop overhaul entails? If you sent this prop back to any reputable shop, they would in all likely hood do nothing to the blades (except repainted them because that's standard for anything that comes through the door). They would do the mandatory ECI on the hub (if applicable), check the bearings, put in new seals and repack it with grease.

Unless the prop is throwing grease (easily visible on the blade face) for an extended period of time (more than 5 hours) there really would be no need to do anything. I would bet that most prop techs would agree with this assessment.

[Hank]

When it's sitting and not being flown, seals will dry out because the oil will drain out of them. Rubber hardens as the elastomers migrate out over time, as is see. On dry rotted tires that aren't flown. Ever notice how quickly the tires on ramp queens crack after they go flat from disuse, compared to the tires on nearby planes that are used? Same with every hose in the engine, in the prop and in the PC system if so equipped. O-rings, too, in the engine, in the prop, in the fuel system and in the fuel caps.

Parking planes for several years causes all kinds of things to go bad. Do I hear it for fuel tank seals? I had mine redone four or five years ago, with a seven year warranty.

[Shadrach]

I agree that airplanes can certainly rot. We can agree to disagree that hoses and seals are going to be brittle in 5 years. If your PC system is seeing oil while being used, it must operate differently than mine. :-)

Our PC has all of the original bags and they're as soft and supple as ever. It had all original tubing until 2007 when I did the first owner assisted annual. All of the previous Mechanics (3 different MSCs) passed it as airworthy even though I'm sure it looked awful. My guess is that none of them wanted to deal with getting underneith the panel. Old, unused airplanes can have major issues. I'm just saying that a 5 yr old 0 time prop likely ain't one of them. I respect that you see it differently.

[mpg]

Thanks to all for pondering this plane, and your warnings and guidance, but you all havent told me anything

that I didnt already know.

Im a dreamer and a certified cheap bastord!

I know that buying a cheap wreck will cost more in the long run.

Sooo awhile back I posted this plane in another sub fora,

 

1963 MOONEY M20C • $27,000 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • 63 Mooney M20C 4946 TTAF, Engine 1312 SMOH (1984). Last compressions 78+. Prop 483 SMOH with new style hub. Avionics King KMA 24 Audio with 3 light marker, Dual KX 155s, KI209 & KI 208 indicators, Apollo GX55 GPS, KT 76A Transponder with mode C, TXP check 1/2014, PS Engineering CD player and Intercom system, JPI Fuel computer. Flap gap seals, Cowl closure and brake STC. Annual 09/2014, Compete Logs. Paint a 5 Interior an 8. 135 MPH on 8-9 GPH. A fuel sipper not guzzler. Ph: 606-776-6165 for Adam. Plane is located at KSYM. • ContactDanny Mabry, Owner - located Morehead, KY USA • Telephone: 606-776-4013 . 606-784-7575 . • Fax: 606-783-1337 • Posted March 31, 2015 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • View Larger Pictures

 

 

not even twice the price, but 3 or 4 times the value!

Still it is on the opposite coast, but this one is Supposed to be in good shape,

decent avionics, recent annual and presumably being flown, at least sometimes.

 

Im retired and could spend 350$ a month for the flying part of being a Mooney owner.

That is really cutting it close, maybe not really enough.

 

As to the buying part, I could,, spend 40,000$ out of my nest egg, but I dont want too!

 

If either of these planes were within 200 mi of me, I would load up my tools and go spend

a couple of days reading the logs and poking my eyeballs into all the nooks and crannies

checking everything that I have learned from reading everything anybody has been

saying about the inner workings of these old planes over the last 3 months and before.

 

The 15,000$ plane probably would not make it to the PPI stage,  I think my good judgment would end there.

The 27,000$ plane could qualify for the PPI if the ad were accurate.

Its been on the market for awhile, so he wants to sell, but doesnt want to dicker,

and it may indicate that it just doesnt deserve that much value.

Ive got to believe that real buyers have looked it over!

 

But its fun to dream and that is one thing I am really good at!

[BigTex]

MPG - Out of curiosity are actually in the market for a plane or just day-dreaming?  Based on some of your latest post and other posts on other threads, you're just dreaming.  Nothing wrong dreaming (we all do it!) but we just went through 40 posts thinking you were seriously looking at this plane which appears to not be the case.  If you're a serious potential buyer, we're more than willing to help you through the process and/or provide our two cents but if not, please let us know so we can refrain from commenting on every plane that hits the market.

[Andy95W]

The paint looks like it's in good shape. If you like orange. Man, that is a LOT of orange.

[ArtVandelay]

The paint looks like it's in good shape. If you like orange. Man, that is a LOT of orange.

Tennessee fan?

[ryoder]

If you only have 350 a month don't buy a Mooney. That kind of budget is insufficient to hangar, operate, and maintain a Mooney by a long shot. Your nest egg will be shot once you become an owner. You will be hit with 500 here, one thousand there, 700 over there as a matter of some regularity. And that is just keeping it airworthy. If you have 350 a month your best bet is to get into a rental club with discounts and cheap airplanes. 350 a month might be enough to fly a low cost experimental on a tie down. Something like a Zenith 601HD which is cheap to buy and fly. You can fix it yourself and the annual is lower than a Mooney. 350 a month won't get you a complex, old, four place. I am considering selling my Mooney outright in a while mainly because it's hard to justify the expense. If it only cost 350 a month I'd keep it forever.

[N33GG]

To play in the game you keep describing, you don't need to be cheap. You need to be a gambler, and willing to accept the risks accordingly. And the risks are very real.

In fact, in the game you keep describing, the odds are stacked against you, and the house usually wins.

Are there winners in Vegas? Sure, but would you be willing to go there and throw $15,500 on the table? That is what you are talking about.

Cheap people play the nickel machines. That is not what you are talking about. That is not what you are asking questions about.

I'm sorry to inform you that you are standing at the wrong table. The nickel machines are in the other room.

[mpg]

MPG, one question... Why are you looking at this plane? If your answer is that it's all you can afford, don't buy it. The ONLY way I'd consider this plane is that I have tons of extra money that I could easily spend $45K for a nice plane but prefer a project plane to tinker with and lots of extra time.

If $15K is your budget, I recommend looking at other types of planes. I personally think it realistically takes twice that amount to get into a decent Mooney. Then half that much each year to keep it in the air.

It pains me but this plane may never fly again...

 

You are Soooo right,,,,,   gotta have a bunch of money and time and gumption to make it a flyer..

I have the time and the money, but not the gumption..

Did I mention that all the planes I have talked about her are on the Wrong Coast?

 

OTOH,,,,   i never said i am serious about any of these planes.

If i was, I would have talked about my calls with the seller and all the other/extra information I

had gleaned from those fone calls...

I have only called about 2 airplanes,,,   they dont answer,,,   they dont reply to their vioce mails,,,

even though they say they want to sell an airplane!!!

If you only have 350 a month don't buy a Mooney. That kind of budget is insufficient to hangar, operate, and maintain a Mooney by a long shot. Your nest egg will be shot once you become an owner. You will be hit with 500 here, one thousand there, 700 over there as a matter of some regularity. And that is just keeping it airworthy. If you have 350 a month your best bet is to get into a rental club with discounts and cheap airplanes. 350 a month might be enough to fly a low cost experimental on a tie down. Something like a Zenith 601HD which is cheap to buy and fly. You can fix it yourself and the annual is lower than a Mooney. 350 a month won't get you a complex, old, four place. I am considering selling my Mooney outright in a while mainly because it's hard to justify the expense. If it only cost 350 a month I'd keep it forever.

this is true,,,   my avatar says I cant justify to expense.

but i would like to be an owner, a flyer, and a mooney flyer/owner is much cooler than any others...

 

Your post here may be the most direct and honest advice to a fool so far...

 

To play in the game you keep describing, you don't need to be cheap. You need to be a gambler, and willing to accept the risks accordingly. And the risks are very real.

Your post is also "special",,,    I am a gambler,,  If I bought a plane, It would be my last.

If I didnt crash it and die there,  It would still be mine when I do,,  die,,   Sooo

having a plane and 2 dollars in my pocket would be enough when I quit,,,  whatever...

 

I look at the plane as a 2 year adventure..

A3rd class med,  some hours for a biannual,  

Tie down @ 38$ per month...    hangers not avail.  cost more than budget.

liability only ins= 300$ per year

annual=1000$ per year,,,   that is all owner maintenance, owner assistance annuals

then,,, 50 hours@ 5.50per gallon x 7.5 gph x 50 hours per year = 2062$ = 318$ per month....

Of course,, as you said the 50s the 500s the 1000snds keep coming,,,when you wernt looking,

or ready!!!

 

 

 

This forum is THE place to come!!!

If you own a Rocket!!,,,  but want cheap Tire info.

If you own a C and cant control your tempts

If you just bought an F and dont know what basic power settings to use

If you might have bought a plane, or did buy a plane, or dont know anything about mooney!!!

 

If you dont really understand ADS-B and no matter how much you study,,,

you still dont!!!   Understand,,,    

Hint,,,,If you fly VFR only and under 18,000,,,,  

I dont think you need it!!           Tell me when someone would,,,,   Need it!

[Shadrach]

MPG, your best bet is to find a few like minded partners. I have 2 and our per share expenses are in your "range" most years.

Hangar - $1740

Gas - $6000

Annual (inspection only) - $800

Maintenance and upgrades (varies) - $6000

The above is an average year and is base on the plane flying 100hours. That's $405 monthly per person to feed, hangar and fly a 67F 100hrs a year. All of the partners understand that at any time they could be on the hook for for a major mx expense and it's understood that we all need to have a minimum of 12k liquid devoted to aviation. That's ~150hr wet. I contrast that to renting much lower performance aircraft at our flight school. A 172 is $95hr and an Archer is $110hr dry. Subtracting fuel, the mooney runs about $85 an hour dry. Either way, your going to pay. Renting is the way to go if your going to fly less than 30hrs a year.

[Marauder]

MPG, your best bet is to find a few like minded partners. I have 2 and our per share expenses are in your "range" most years.

Hangar - $1740

Gas - $6000

Annual (inspection only) - $800

Maintenance and upgrades (varies) - $6000

The above is an average year and is base on the plane flying 100hours. That's $405 monthly per person to feed, hangar and fly a 67F 100hrs a year. All of the partners understand that at any time they could be on the hook for for a major mx expense and it's understood that we all need to have a minimum of 12k liquid devoted to aviation. That's ~150hr wet. I contrast that to renting much lower performance aircraft at our flight school. A 172 is $95hr and an Archer is $110hr dry. Subtracting fuel, the mooney runs about $85 an hour dry. Either way, your going to pay. Renting is the way to go if your going to fly less than 30hrs a year.

Your numbers are pretty close to what I budget. I figure around $180 per hour based on a 100 hours per year. Some years, it is a lot worse and some a little better.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[N33GG]

If I bought a plane, It would be my last.

If I didnt crash it and die there,  It would still be mine when I do,,  die,,  

I said that about every aircraft I purchased, including the one I own now. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count all the airplanes I have owned. So good luck with that plan. Easier said than done!