Approach power settings?

[FloridaMan]

I was flying with a friend recently. He was critical of how I was managing my approach power in my M20F (201 glass/lopresti cowl). With just about any power setting, it takes work to convince the plane to descend and stop flying. 

 

The controversy was over me making adjustments to the power while flying a downwind to final approach. Since then, I've tried to dial-in an approach setting where I don't have to touch the throttle until flare, but I can't seem to get it quite right. 12-13 inches seems to be about as close as I can get, but between 1000 ft and sea level with the throttle locked, the manifold seems to increase to 15 inches and I have to make adjustments to keep the power out. 

 

Being that my home field has two runways with around 3000ft usable, one of them with an obstacle and blast fence at the end, the others with seawalls, I am used to coming in high and chopping and dropping to the field. My thoughts being that flying my approach like that gives me a safety margin. It also means that I am always a little bit hot when I start final: I like to be doing at least 100mph when I start final, drop down to 85 and cross the numbers at 80mph with power out. 

 

 

What approach settings do you guys use? 

[Browncbr1]

I am not very experienced, but I tell you what seems to work for me.  

with full flaps, I keep throttle at 19" on downwind.  This stabilizes as 90mph..  When turning base, I reduce and don't look at anything but the numbers and other traffic.. I just feel it... on short final, I glance and usually see about 80mph... 

 

With half flaps, I use the same power settings (maybe an inch less) and it yields maybe 5mph more, so the ground float is longer.. I have no problem landing on 3500' either way.

[TTaylor]

Pitch is for speed control, power for descent rate.  There is seldom a perfect pattern and there are updrafts and downdrafts.  I use the throttle to adjust for the ups and downs as well as changes such as needing to extend or expedite for other traffic.  I also agree, that until I am about half a mile from the threshold I keep extra altitude so I can glide in if I lose the engine.   Someone so rigid that they have to fly the pattern without touching the throttle is likely to get into trouble when something unexpected happens. I actually practice non-standard approaches to be ready to handle when something comes up.  Can you eye-ball that expedited straight in when the tower asks you to from 10 miles out, etc.?

[Parker_Woodruff]

While I would probably do more of the final approach at 80mph, you aren't doing anything wrong by making power adjustments in the pattern. As long as you aren't over-controlling the plane with the throttle, you're not using a bad technique.

I've flown with you, and you don't over control the plane with throttle...

Every day requires a different power setting. Use throttle as a tool to make the plane do what you want it to do.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Someone so rigid that they have to fly the pattern without touching the throttle is likely to get into trouble when something unexpected happens.

Agreed...And I've seen it happen. It's not safe practice, even if it sounds like a neat technique.

[Bob - S50]

First, I see nothing wrong with adjusting power as needed at any time, let alone in the base turn.  I do it all the time.  I see a big problem with someone complaining about you as a pilot doing what you need to do to maintain the proper airspeed and flight path.

 

Any time you are not in a stabilized condition (i.e. level flight at cruise), you need to be checking your airspeed.  When I fly the final turn I look at two things: the runway and my airspeed.  I don't care what my MP is and since I have the prop control full forward, I don't care about RPM either.  If I need to pull the power to idle that's what I do.  If I need to add power, that's what I do.

 

In our J I personally start at about 2200 RPM, and about 15-17" MP on downwind shooting for about 105 knots.  I put the gear down abeam the numbers and let the speed bleed off.  Approaching my turn to final I select full flaps, trim out the pitch change, pull some power, then start the turn.  With the power back I push the prop full forward then use pitch to maintain my desire flightpath and throttle as needed to maintain speed (although you can do it the other way around if that is your preference - but this way has worked for me for over 7000 landings).

 

Fly the plane your way!  Listen to others ideas and decide if you want to try them or not.  Adopt the changes you like, ignore those you don't.  Do what works for you.

 

Bob

[Mooneymite]

 Use throttle as a tool to make the plane do what you want it to do.

 

Exactly!

 

For some reason, some pilots believe in the "set-it and forget-it" mode of operation.  Unfortunately, we live in a changing world.

[AndyFromCB]

I second all posts above. Your friend either never graduated from Cessna 172/Piper Cherokee world or is a base to final spin waiting for happen. On the Bravo, 17" seems to be a magic number abeam, but then depending on winds, obstacles, other aircraft in the pattern by the time I cross the numbers I can be anywhere between idle and 20 if landing into 40knot headwind with various adjustments made flying the circuit.

 

I'm also the full flaps kind of guy abeam the numbers as well. I've been bitched at before by many a pilot for doing that. My take is if I lose the engine, gear goes up, flaps go up to approach and I always have the runway made. Also, if I don't drop them right away, I will be landing two miles long. I don't fly tight patterns. I don't want to be a statistic. Base to final stall kills a lot more than a lost engine. I do not like being slower than 90 during that turn and do not like being any faster than 70 over the numbers. You can't do that without playing with throttle.

 

Second of all, not touching a throttle until flare in a Mooney is another recipe for disaster. You want to be 1.3x stall on final, 1.2x over the numbers and a even slower during you round out. You can only accomplish that by bleeding the power slowly starting about 1/2 mile out.

[Marauder]

You means Richard Collins was wrong when he quipped that he thought a perfect airline pilot was one who could set the power and only retard the throttles when he or she flared?!

[AndyFromCB]

You means Richard Collins was wrong when he quipped that he thought a perfect airline pilot was one who could set the power and only retard the throttles when he or she flared?!

 

I'm sure it can be done but then I'm no Bob Hoover...I'm more of real pilots call "a driver"...17 years of driving airplanes, at fault accident free...My plan is go out from a heart attack when my wife finds me in bed with the maid when I'm 90 ;-)

[Mooneymite]

You means Richard Collins was wrong when he quipped that he thought a perfect airline pilot was one who could set the power and only retard the throttles when he or she flared?!

 

Pretty easy....just hit the marker at 250 Kts, pull the throttles to idle, drop the gear, work the flaps and pray.  Works well in most Boeings!  Airbuses may require a whole rosary...I don't know.  

[gsxrpilot]

I see a big problem with someone complaining about you as a pilot doing what you need to do to maintain the proper airspeed and flight path.

 

Fly the plane your way!  Listen to others ideas and decide if you want to try them or not.  Adopt the changes you like, ignore those you don't.  Do what works for you.

 

What Bob said :-)

 

I'm in the camp of those who never look at dials or gauges once in the pattern. I'm looking for traffic or looking at the runway and adjusting pitch/power and anything else required to make it all come out right on the runway.  But if I'm using flaps, they never come out until I'm on final.  I like the gear on downwind and flaps (maybe) on final.

 

Having said that, it's all a bit different when on the ILS as its ALL dials and gauges. And I'll admit I always need more of that practice.

 

Now if we can get this back to a Flaps/No Flaps on landing thread, I might get to 300 posts :-)

[gsxrpilot]

Pretty easy....just hit the marker at 250 Kts, pull the throttles to idle, drop the gear, work the flaps and pray.  Works well in most Boeings!  Airbuses may require a whole rosary...I don't know.  

My instructor told me of doing this very thing back in the day. He was flying a 727 at the time. He claimed that he could pull the throttles to idle at the marker and not touch them again until clear of the active.

[Mooneymite]

My instructor told me of doing this very thing back in the day. He was flying a 727 at the time. He claimed that he could pull the throttles to idle at the marker and not touch them again until clear of the active.

We've all done it.....or tried to do it.

 

Passengers never had a clue they were riding behind test pilots!  

[gsxrpilot]

We've all done it.....or tried to do it.

 

Passengers never had a clue they were riding behind test pilots!  

Or maybe that was the problem. He ultimately got "early retirement" as a 747 Captain from two different airlines, Pan Am and Braniff.

[stevesm20b]

Normally I just pull the power to idle downwind abeam the numbers, with gear down add full flaps. Sometimes I have to add a little power on final if speed is lower than 80mph.

[dfgreene61]

M20J - My home airport is in a mountain valley (5,600' runway ele), so I always reduce power enough to get the gear out so I can decend to pattern by the time I reach the airport.  On downwind I'm at 18 inches with flaps up.  At the numbers I go to 13 inches then I deploy full flaps while at the same time holding nose up trim.  Once I'm at full flaps I let go of the trim, this will give me 80 knots.  I fly base without changing anything, then on final I adjust power to compensate for wind and start putting in more trim to get down to 70 by the fence.

[Ftlausa]

What happened to "flying the numbers" in the pattern?  The key is proper airspeed.  Obviously the pilot you flew with is not IR either.   

[gsxrpilot]

Yeah, I usually just fly the airplane in the pattern. 

[Hank]

I usually land my C with Takeoff flaps, but Fs do much better with full flaps.

My pattern speed is 90 mph with Takeoff flaps on downwind, drop gear abeam landing zine to begin descent, maintain on base, roll out of final at 85 mph with the VASI / PAPI lights split; too much red means more throttle, too much white means less throttle and maybe a touch more flaps. Somewhere on short final, when I'm sure I'll make it, throttle to idle and begin slowing to 75 mph minus 5 mph per 300 lbs below gross.

It works for me. Too fast means floating and landing flat. Got to slow down, listen for the stall horn when the tires hit.

[Lood]

Your friend is wrong - full stop! Conditions are never exactly the same, temperatures vary, DA varies, wind direction and speed varies, everything is variable and this will call for slightly different settings. What is your friends' advice when you set and leave everything and your speed and/ or height is not where it should be? Still leave everything...?

 

For my F, the ballpark settings are as follows:

Downwind: 16" MP, 2450 rpm, gear down and take off flaps = 100mph IAS

Base: 12" MP, 2450 rpm, another norch of flaps = 90mph IAS

Finals: 12" MP or adjusting power to maintain the correct glidepath, air speed, etc, full flaps, pitch FF = normally 80mph. When I'm light, I'll approach at 75mph over the fence.

 

My home field is at 4000' AMSL and like I said, these settings might very well vary on different days.