DeltaHawk Diesel Engine STC

[jetdriven]

We’ve been just about ready to get lightweight aero diesel engines for about 80 years now. The only one I’ve seen is the Packard DR-980.  

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

...Packard DR-980....

Didn’t see them at Oshkosh last year....heard they are working with Rearwin on a new plane....

[jetdriven]

But the Packard engine is certified whereas nothing new has.  Still waiting.  Hopeful.  But aviation is full of “coming soon” which never does.  

[1964-M20E]

On 10/4/2019 at 12:53 PM, aviatoreb said:

Expensive - yes.  Over priced - 90k gasp.

but - consider thats 200hp mostly available horsepower at altitude meaning it’s more like a 250hp engine at cruise -

and the fuel specifics are superb.

 

You're right however it depends on your power setting if at 10000 feet and 65% of a 310HP is 200HP.  I'd love to have 200HP all the way up to 11000 feet and the higher cruise speed once I get there.

[steingar]

On 10/4/2019 at 4:01 PM, EricJ said:

Most Diamondstar DA42 twins have diesel engines.   Many if not most of the big recip drones are diesels (many of them from Lycoming)

Most of the "mogas" STC conversions require 100% gasoline, not the ethanol-blended gasoline that comes out of most pumps.   The "mogas" that is required to run in most of the STCs is pretty much unobtanium in most of the country.

Jet A is far more available at airports, which is what the diesels burn.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but the engines used in Diamonds are Thielerts, which are reworked Mercedes engines.  Don't know about drones, but they could just as easily put turbines in them if they're military.  And we're not talking about the US.  These diesels are aimed at China and the developing world.  And there Mogas doesn't have booze in it, they eat their corn, they don't burn it.

[Yetti]

On 10/5/2019 at 7:19 PM, jetdriven said:

We’ve been just about ready to get lightweight aero diesel engines for about 80 years now. The only one I’ve seen is the Packard DR-980.  

Yes I want a diesel radial.

I read stories about flying behind the Packard engine and it sounded like a really messy engine between the exhaust and leaking oil the pilots were both a sight and aroma experience to behold.

[Martin S.]

FYI, contacted DeltaHawk regarding their intention to provide retrofit kits for Mooneys. Yes I know, they can tell whatever they want and certification might take years. Still thought their answer might also interest others:

<<Hi Martin, and thanks for your inquiry. The Mooney is definitely on our radar for an STC however, there are other air frames that are lower hanging fruit at this time. I would not envision STC for the money before the end of next year. However, please fill out the form online and you will be advised of any upcoming news in this area. Thanks for your interest.>>

Greets, Martin

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Martin S.

[Pinecone]

On 10/7/2019 at 9:58 AM, steingar said:

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but the engines used in Diamonds are Thielerts, which are reworked Mercedes engines.  

Theilerts have been superceded by the Austro.  Which is also a modified MB auto engine.

Theilert filed for insolvency in 2008.

[A64Pilot]

On 10/5/2019 at 8:19 PM, jetdriven said:

We’ve been just about ready to get lightweight aero diesel engines for about 80 years now. The only one I’ve seen is the Packard DR-980.  

I think the Zepplins had diesels, but they weren’t lightweight?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_602

I know the Germans built a Diesel bomber in WWII, but it didn’t work out, but don’t know specifics.

I found this

https://www.historynet.com/luftwaffes-high-flying-diesel/

And this on the engine, 6 cyl, 12 piston two stroke. https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/junkers-jumo-207-d-v2-line-6-diesel-engine/nasm_A19660013000

Apparently it was an opposed piston engine like the USWWII submarine engine, that also didn’t work very well either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbanks_Morse_38_8-1/8_diesel_engine

Edited July 13, 2023 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

5 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Theilerts have been superceded by the Austro.  Which is also a modified MB auto engine.

Theilert filed for insolvency in 2008.

Maule built and I believe Certified the M-9 Diesel, then SMA folded leaving little Maule holding the bag.

https://aeroresourcesinc.com/uploads/200406-2004 Maule M-9-230 Diesel.pdf

Many have been bitten by the diesel “thing”

There was I believe an STC for the Cessna 182, one of our dealers Africair was building them as fast as they could for Africa, and got left holding the bag too I think.

In my opinion and it’s just an opinion, but I think it’s going to take common rail to make Diesel work for GA, and I think a common rail engine would work, a four stroke common rail at that.

But we all know what opinions are worth.

Edited July 13, 2023 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

Lycoming only had two Diesels I know of, one little single cylinder that burns Jet-A but isn’t a diesel, it’s a spark ignition engine that burns Jet-A because the military has been single fuel for decades, it’s similar to Mercury’s outboard that isn’t a Diesel engine, but will run on Diesel. It was built for the Navy that really, really didn’t want gasoline on the ship, but the seals needed an outboard

https://www.mercurymarine.com/en/us/engines/outboard/diesel-outboard/diesel-outboard/

The Lycoming true Diesel is 205 HP drone motor for the Military, I assume it replaced the Rotax in the original Predator maybe?

https://www.lycoming.com/engines/del-120

Itty bitty spark ignition Lycoming Jet-A motor 

https://www.lycoming.com/engines/el-005

Once you go bigger than that of course you see turbines like the Honeywell -10 in the Reaper

Edited July 13, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Pinecone]

12 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Apparently it was an opposed piston engine like the USWWII submarine engine, that also didn’t work very well either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbanks_Morse_38_8-1/8_diesel_engine

Hmm, the worked so poorly that they are still used for backup on modern submarines.  From 1938 to still being made today.

[A64Pilot]

49 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Hmm, the worked so poorly that they are still used for backup on modern submarines.  From 1938 to still being made today.

Do some reading about the WWII fleet subs, they didn’t then.

As a kid I was somewhat fascinated by the US subs, people seem to think highly of the U boats, but they failed in their mission, where the US subs didn’t they actually did effectively blockade Japan . They were only 2% of the US Navy, but sunk 30% of the Japanese navy, but decimated the civilian fleet. They were highly advanced too, they even were airconditioned, all had RADAR, advanced SONAR that could detect mines etc., TBT, torpedo computer, but the torpedoes were terrible because they weren’t tested prior to the war, because they were too expensive to “waste” testing, so they didn’t work well at all for the first couple of years, but once they were given torpedoes almost as good as the German and Japanese ones they were devastating.

The Hooven-Owens-Rentscher or H.O.R. engine was the first double acting Diesel used and it was so bad it was pretty quickly abandoned, obviously they got the Fairbanks-Morse opposed piston to work but it didn’t out of the gate. The power to weight ratio plus the smaller physical size of a double acting or opposed piston two stroke was just too enticing to abandon

The HOR was double acting, the Fairbanks - Morse opposed piston and the General Motors sub engine was a normal conventional Diesel and that pretty much covers the WWII sub motors. There even was a GM “pancake” motor that was a vertical 16 cyl X engine, think two V’s joined at the crank, but it too was problematic

https://oldmachinepress.com/2014/08/17/general-motors-electro-motive-16-184-diesel-engine/ie

The GM was reliable, but big and heavy, the HOR quickly picked up a nickname of its abbreviation and the FM motor once the bugs got worked out was fine, but it had teething problems.

The GM motor and generator of course evolved into the Diesel electric train.

If you have the time and want to watch an excellent film that explains all three perfectly watch this old WWII US Navy film on sub engines.

The point I guess I’m trying to make is that believe it or not, but there was a huge investment in developing the Diesel about as far as it could be almost 100 years ago.

I think but am not sure that the opposed piston FM was built under license from Junkers even though we were at war with Germany.

What is a HUGE game changer though is the re-introduction of common rail as it’s actually about 100 years old, but fell out of favor, but with Modern Electronics it’s been revolutionized, it’s taken old heavy low power Diesels and turned them into hot rods, there are Dirsel dragsters now using the Duramax pickup Diesel, something that’s possible because of common rail.

That’s why I think in my opinion that a modern GA aircraft Diesel is possible, IF it incorporates computer controlled Common Rail injection, but maybe the computer is what makes Certification difficult. I know Cruising sailboats try to do without common rail because a lightning strike most probably will kill your engine and your not getting a new computer in the South Pacific.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by A64Pilot

[N201MKTurbo]

When I was in my early 20s my best friend started dating my cousin from SoCal and moved there. I went over to visit once and visited him at work. He was installing car stereos in an old warehouse in Costa Mesa. In the corner of the warehouse we’re 5 brand new WWII surplus German diesel radial aircraft engines in crates. There was one on a makeshift test stand and Mark said the guy who owned the engines would fire it up sometimes.
 

This was before I got the flying bug and I don’t remember any details about them.

I have tried to find some info on them, but I can’t find anything.