Value of fuel bladders

[DonMuncy]

I  think it is a good idea to fix the leak at the screw, but I seriously doubt any water gets in there. It is on a convex area of the wing, where water will not pool.

[ArtVandelay]

We own a C model that we put 54 gallon bladders in 20 years ago and then expanded to 64 gallon bladders about 10 years ago now, and my J model that I put 64 gallon bladders in six years ago, so I have experience with all configurations except going from a 64 gallon wet wing down to 54 gallon bladders (like Byron's 201). None of them that I have seen retain the old unused fuel caps, and I can't imagine that that would receive an STC. It is a very clean installation.

Do you have any pix of the J and fuel caps?

[ryoder]

There was a thread a while ago which had a non Mooney A&P pretty upset about the attitude that only a specialist can reseal a Mooney wing. It's an ugly job but most repair shops have been doing reveals forever on all kinds of airplanes. I reject the notion that it needs to cost exactly 3250 per wing or else it is a bad job and also the idea that only a specialist endorsed by this community can do a good job. I'll put my money where my mouth is soon though and take as many pics of the job as is possible given that I work 9 to 6.

And the quote I got was around 925 per wing not 1850 per wing.

[ArtVandelay]

There was a thread a while ago which had a non Mooney A&P pretty upset about the attitude that only a specialist can reseal a Mooney wing. It's an ugly job but most repair shops have been doing reveals forever on all kinds of airplanes. I reject the notion that it needs to cost exactly 3250 per wing or else it is a bad job and also the idea that only a specialist endorsed by this community can do a good job. I'll put my money where my mouth is soon though and take as many pics of the job as is possible given that I work 9 to 6.

And the quote I got was around 925 per wing not 1850 per wing.

Assuming a shop rate of $90/hr and $50 for parts, that's 20 hours of labor, the only way they do that is for process not involving much scraping, etc and to be a mostly chemical process. Or they just leave the old sealant in place which seems problematic. Did they give you a idea of what's involved?

[ryoder]

Yes he said it would involve using polygone and that it was a nasty job but one they do often enough. He did a 201 recently and was a little concerned that my C would have smaller access panels making it more difficult to scrape stuff.

[ArtVandelay]

Yes he said it would involve using polygone and that it was a nasty job but one they do often enough. He did a 201 recently and was a little concerned that my C would have smaller access panels making it more difficult to scrape stuff.

What about damage to the paint? I would ask them to change out the fuel sensor gaskets as well since that is a common source of leaks

[rbridges]

Yes. My bladders were installed by O&N in 2008, I think, and is their 8 bladder 64 gallon system. Now O&N is using a different cap, but it is located in the same place. Perhaps Rob here can provide a picture of his installation in his C model. He has the new style caps that are currently in use. I think that the fuel filler ring also changed to accommodate the new cap. See attached. The only new hole is the outermost small inspection panel.

Jim

 

unfortunately, I don't have any pics on the computer, but your description sounds like mine.  I do have the newer caps according to Joey Cole, and an additional panel was created on top of the wing.  I'm very happy with the results.  I'll post a pic if I get over the to the hangar this weekend.

[ryoder]

What about damage to the paint? I would ask them to change out the fuel sensor gaskets as well since that is a common source of leaks

He will change those gaskets and said paint damage is rare when I asked. I pressed him on the price and told him about the 6500 dollar fixed price and he was very sure its a sub 2k job for both tanks.

[RobertGary1]

If your leak is one of the top access panels then by all means, reseal the panel. If it's anywhere under the wing. make your choice of where your AMUs will go !

BILL

I've spot repaired several leaks under my wing over the years. No need for a resealed unless there is systemic deterioration of the sealant.

The most common area appears to be in the rib pass through holes. Requires small amount of sealant applied with a toothpick.

-Robert

[DrBill]

Here is a pic of the new fuel cap which allows the tank to be filled completely thus the additional capacity.

[DrBill]

It should have taken your fuel to 54.8 useable. I think there is another 2.2 gallons of unusable which is where Bill may have gotten the 57 from.

Bob and Marauder:  Right... 27 per tank.. (that's where I got the 7 from).

BILL

[rbridges]

Here is a pic of the new fuel cap which allows the tank to be filled completely thus the additional capacity.

Resize of PICT0693.JPG

 

 

thanks, Bill.  That's what I have on my plane.  

[Bob_Belville]

But the new cap does not increase capacity.

I think it does. When my avionics shop calibrated the new JPI EDM 930 fuel quantities they could get no more than 26 gallons per side. I have the older style filler caps on O&N installed in 1997.

[DrBill]

The Shaw caps are recessed and do not allow the tank to be filled completely.  The new caps are not recessed like the Shaw and actually are not as flush as the Shaw but allow the tank to be filled to the top.

[pirate]

I did bladders 12 years ago and still very happy, would never go back.

[Marauder]

We installed ours in our C model in 1994 and the J model in 2008. Same caps as yours. I still don't think that the new style caps increased capacity. Shaw just increased the price of the ones like ours and O&N had to find a cheaper option.

The Shaw caps are recessed and do not allow the tank to be filled completely. The new caps are not recessed like the Shaw and actually are not as flush as the Shaw but allow the tank to be filled to the top.

The Shaw caps aren't that deep. They are more recessed than the newer ones but I find it hard to believe they will displace a gallon of fuel.

[Alan Fox]

The last two Mooneys I had both leaked , I stripped the first one , and I had about 100 hours in not counting the reseal.... I bugged out and decided that I would lose it if it leaked again , and bought a set of bladders , The common concensus seems to be that not keeping the tanks full , and bad pucks cause the sealant to leak.... The tanks are sealed with B2 (polysulfite)... On the pre J Mooneys the wings are assembled before any sealant is applied , I wouldn't even consider a reseal on an early model.....On the later Models the sealant is applied between the ribs/spars and the skin , and I think a reseal could be a lot more successful on the later models.....  The bladders are thick vinyl cloth type of material....I installed two sets of Bladders , it takes about thirty hours of labor to install....the beauty is if it ever leaks you can service a bladder in about two to three hours....I heard that Myron (Ohllson) is retiring and don't know if anyone is buying the business or the STC PMA for the install....He is the only company that sells them....I know Aero-Tec manufactures the actual bladders for O&N    Probably LASAR will eventually end up with the STC , if that happens you can bet the price will go up.....  I have never heard of a leak in one of these if installed correctly....

[bonal]

I guess the question to ask would be have any of you that went to bladders wished you had not. Based on all the posts about fuel leaks etc and all the posts that say never had a problem with my bladders makes me feel glad I do. They were installed in 2006 by O&N so far no issues. I know they are expensive and if I had sealed tanks that started to fail I being the CB I have to be would likely be looking for the best deal to repair what I have.

[ArtVandelay]

30 hours to install?! What is so labor intensive? Conceptually it seems like it should not take that long, open the access panel, insert bladder, make some connections for fuel sensor, vent, fuel line, and that's it, what am I missing?

[Sabremech]

My thoughts, I personally give no added value for bladders. I prefer sealed tanks as I have concerns of corrosion around the bladders, especially if the airplane sees large temperature swings over it's life. Has anyone with bladders removed theirs to inspect for corrosion issues?

David

[N601RX]

There is quite a bit of sheet metal work to do before putting the bladder in the hole. I have some of the older ones. I had to replace the cork gaskets around the inspection plates a few years ago. The bladders themselves still looked good and were still soft and flexible. I didn't remove them but did pull them back enough I could see the spar and surrounding skin and ribs. There was no sign of any corrosion. The spar caps and most of the spar was still covered with the original pro seal.