Glass panel

[teethdoc]

I am Very naive when it comes to a glass panel. What is the advantage of the aspen or garmin glass panel? What does it offer other than a digital version of a steam instrument?

[Marauder]

Depends. If you buy a single Aspen, you get digital versions of your steam gauges - but could be a step up (if you had a DG like me, you get an HSI). You also get situational awareness (moving map under the HSI).

On both the Garmin and Aspen MFDs, you can get your route, approach plates, weather and traffic (with the correct options). You can also get GPSS, backup capability (battery on the Aspens) and SV.

As a 26 year steam gauge guy with 2 years of "glass" experience, I don't ever want to go back to steam!

[Super Dave]

I can only speak for Aspen but I assume Garmin has similar features.

 

 

-Backup battery incase of electrical failure

 

-Independent GPS that allows you to navigate to your destination if the primary GPS fails

 

-RMI bearing pointers

 

-Tape displays for airspeed and altitude

 

-Ability to display labeled indexes at airspeeds like Vx, Vy, Vlo and Vref

 

-Altitude bug with audio alert as you approach or leave the selected altitude

 

-Continuous display of wind direction and speed, and TAS

 

-In some cases, GPSS with older autopilots

 

-Reliability. This one is an educated guess as I have no data, but Im guessing the in-flight failure rate of glass displays is much lower than that of vacuum pump/mechanical gyro attitude displays. And if you do have a failure of the glass, you still have a completely independent backup attitude display with the mechanical gyro.

[ChrisH]

Don't have one yet, but the biggest selling point (other than HSI) for me is the failure mode. Gyro fails, you may or may not notice for a while, ending up in an unusual attitude no-gyro in IMC is not my idea of fun. Big red X hard to miss though.

[Bob_Belville]

Nice list from SuperDave. The ref speeds, solid HSI, GPSS with almost any A/P TAS, winds, altimeter with altitude alerts... I'm with Marauder, after almost 2 years with Aspen I would hate to go back. (My "glass" includes GTN750 and JPI 930 which all integrate and reduce workload and scan.)

[teethdoc]

I can only speak for Aspen but I assume Garmin has similar features.

 

 

-Backup battery incase of electrical failure

 

-Independent GPS that allows you to navigate to your destination if the primary GPS fails

 

-RMI bearing pointers

 

-Tape displays for airspeed and altitude

 

-Ability to display labeled indexes at airspeeds like Vx, Vy, Vlo and Vref

 

-Altitude bug with audio alert as you approach or leave the selected altitude

 

-Continuous display of wind direction and speed, and TAS

 

-In some cases, GPSS with older autopilots

 

-Reliability. This one is an educated guess as I have no data, but Im guessing the in-flight failure rate of glass displays is much lower than that of vacuum pump/mechanical gyro attitude displays. And if you do have a failure of the glass, you still have a completely independent backup attitude display with the mechanical gyro.

Awesome info.  Thanks for the education.

[larryb]

In addition to the above the AI is much more sensitive than the mechanical one. You know about every half degree.

[adrian]

The sensitivity is one of the only downsides.  I used to be happy enough to daydream while flying 2 degrees off heading or 20 feet from my cleared altitude.  Now that the displays are digital, I find myself wanting it to be perfect - which is harder work!

[Bob_Belville]

The sensitivity is one of the only downsides.  I used to be happy enough to daydream while flying 2 degrees off heading or 20 feet from my cleared altitude.  Now that the displays are digital, I find myself wanting it to be perfect - which is harder work!

Hire a George.

[John Pleisse]

Door #1- Aspen PFD only. Best option. Modifies current 6 pack. $12k installed

 

Door #2- Aspen PFD with an MFD. Great display for situational awareness...poor display for IAP's. $17k installed.

 

Now the gloves come off-

 

Door #3 -The Garmin G500- $38k, better MFD, longer install time, more weight, not a full six pack replacement, doesn't play with non Garmin GPS's..you'll need 2 G430's or better.

 

Door #4- Aspen Evolution 2000 or higher- $32k installed, smaller MFD than Garmin G500, less plumbing, complete 6 pack replacement, weighs less, will display all equipment...ADF, VHF, GPS, etc.

 

Best bang for the buck.... The Aspen PFD only....nothing can compete. When you start buying MFD's you have to make hard choices. The Garmin G500 is the premium and perhaps, better product. IMO, the G500 beats the Aspen PFD/MFD combo, but loses handily to the Evolution 2000 system. I bought the latter and in retrospect, didn't need it. The MFD display is too small. I would have gotten the Aspen PFD only and taken my chances with an I-pad instead of an MFD.

[KSMooniac]

Best bang for the buck.... The Aspen PFD only....nothing can compete. When you start buying MFD's you have to make hard choices. The Garmin G500 is the premium and perhaps, better product. IMO, the G500 beats the Aspen PFD/MFD combo, but loses handily to the Evolution 2000 system. I bought the latter and in retrospect, didn't need it. The MFD display is too small. I would have gotten the Aspen PFD only and taken my chances with an I-pad instead of an MFD.

 

Having owned none of the above yet, I'm firmly in this camp right now.  I'm hoping/wishing/waiting to see if the relaxation of Part 23 will give us more options for this upgrade in the next year or two as I'd like to consider Dynon and others, as well as the G3X against the Aspen PFD.  

 

The Aspen 2000 system makes a lot of sense if you want true redundancy, and that has some significant value.  The G500 doesn't offer this redundancy.  I don't know what the failure rate is on the modern glass, but it is > 0.  Aside from the initial extra cost, I really really don't want to add another database subscription to my monthly expenses, and that is why I really don't like the panel-mounted MFD.  The tablet solutions give far greater info, better interface, and better resolution compared to any panel-mounted MFD, and at far less cost.  For me, I think a single PFD, my existing electric + battery AI, a conventional CDI, 2 GNS boxes and a tablet will work fine and deliver me safely in IMC if needed with any single failure.  

 

YMMV, etc.  It is nice to have options in this arena...I just wish we had a few more!

[Bob_Belville]

Some of you may have seen my panel,  a layout I decided on 2 years ago.

 

If I had it to do again I don't think I would change a single thing including the GDL88 which powers weather and traffic on the GTN750. (the GPS on the right, out of this pic, is a Garmin 696, a great backup to the certified boxes.)

 

"Glass" is the 6 pack and also the engine monitoring instruments replaced by the JPI EDM 930.

[ryoder]

I also want a G3X or Dynon.

[chrisk]

For me, the big benefits af an Aspen PFD are:

• An AI that is more easily recognized and processed by my brain.  --I had to think about the King AI that is now a backup.
  • It is electric, no issues with a vacuum failure. And there is a battery backup.
• GPSS is very nice.
• The true airspeed is very nice.
• HSI reliability

The down sides are:

• I rarely look at the Aspens airspeed, vsi, TC, or altitude.  I prefer the steam gauges.
• There was a bit of a learning curve with the Aspen. 
  • Like knowing how to set the brightness of the screen.
  • realizing the approach indicators are near AI, not the HSI.

 

And how I justified putting an Aspen in.

• The cost to add a decent backup electric AI
• the cost to add GPSS
• the cost to fix/maintain my HSI
• and what I could sell my HSI for

[1964-M20E]

Dynon Sky view touch with two 10” screens hard switch interfaces redundancy, engine monitor autopilot and servos  etc. delux IFR package all for around $25k for parts.  Pesky experimentals!  

[carusoam]

For your WingX....

https://www.flypadmount.com

Panel mount your iPhone, iPad Air......

Portable, non primary of course.

May need a JPI, EI or other to free up some panel space....

How's that?

-a-

[Nemesis]

Having owned none of the above yet, I'm firmly in this camp right now.  I'm hoping/wishing/waiting to see if the relaxation of Part 23 will give us more options for this upgrade in the next year or two as I'd like to consider Dynon and others, as well as the G3X against the Aspen PFD.  

 

I sure want more options that we all hope a rewrite of part 23 will bring, but...

According to Flying Magazine, the FAA will miss the 2015 deadline by 2 years.

 

http://www.flyingmag.com/news/faa-will-miss-part-23-deadline-two-years

[aviatoreb]

I sure want more options that we all hope a rewrite of part 23 will bring, but...

According to Flying Magazine, the FAA will miss the 2015 deadline by 2 years.

 

http://www.flyingmag.com/news/faa-will-miss-part-23-deadline-two-years

 

That's just obscene that they simply ignore the mandate deadline that comes from both congress and the executive branch. Really?  And we all know that when their own made up Dec '17 deadline comes near they will delay that too.

 

This is so bad for the industry since I am sure many folks will delay investment in their airplanes to see what happens.  That is what I am doing.  I would not want to buy a $25k G600 system when I would prefer to buy a Garmin GX3 system for $7500 (with digitial autopilot!).  In fact, it mostly freezes all of my decided investments in my airplane.  For example - the continuing uncertainty in fuel - will I still be able to operate my TSIO520NB in a few years or will fuel no longer be available?  Or will they certify (or allow me with the new mandate) to install something like Gami Prism that might allow operating lower octane fuels by modern knock sensors?  I don't know...  So as a consequence, in the back of my mind I am not in so deep into my airplane that if the fuel source goes away that I couldn't walk away from my airplane and call it a complete loss.  In other words I am skiddish to invest in to many make-it-nicer things, a shiny new paint job, stunning avionics, and so forth.  And with paint I would want to do the smooth belly, maybe long range tanks.  And I would by airbag seatbelts tomorrow.  But not until I know it will not be throwing good money after bad.  Meanwhile yes I do invest in tip top maintenance and yes I am getting the TT31 ADSB-out transponder in two weeks and a 406Mhz elt, but that is small compared to what I wish I could/would do.

 

I would be depressed to invest in a Aspen to find out 6 months later that I could have had the more capable and much cheaper G3x.  I would be depressed to invest in paint to find out 2 years later that there is no continuing path for an avgas engine airplane - will I need to dump the plane and buy some diesel airplane?  Turbine?  Will I be able to afford it? 

 

I am sure I am not the only one thinking like this here on this matter.  For sake of the aviation economy the FAA needs to stop goofing around.  Not to mention a good number of these things are safety items - airbag seatbelts please!!!!  I just do not believe that this is a problem that requires 4 years for them to make rules (the time from the statement of the mandate untl Dec 2017).

[Marauder]

I want to add a little twist to this conversation. If the part 23 re-write is implemented, does this mean putting non-certified equipment in our planes will make them fall into the experimental category or will they retain their original normal category? The reason I ask pertains to maintenance. A guy in the hangar across from me bought an RV-7. He asked me if I knew a good mechanic and I recommended mine. When he spoke to him, my mechanic told him because of liability issues with his insurance, they won't work on experimentals. Will the same thing happen to us?

[Bob_Belville]

I want to add a little twist to this conversation. If the part 23 re-write is implemented, does this mean putting non-certified equipment in our planes will make them fall into the experimental category or will they retain their original normal category? The reason I ask pertains to maintenance. A guy in the hangar across from me bought an RV-7. He asked me if I knew a good mechanic and I recommended mine. When he spoke to him, my mechanic told him because of liability issues with his insurance, they won't work on experimentals. Will the same thing happen to us?

I don't know but I do know that insurance plays a big role in my A&Ps decisions. These guys assume a lot of liability. (As an aside this small businessman has had to drop health insurance with the implementation of the "Affordable" Health Care Act. The rates and deductibles went up so much it was out of the question. His wife works in the business, they have 3 small children.) 

[aviatoreb]

I want to add a little twist to this conversation. If the part 23 re-write is implemented, does this mean putting non-certified equipment in our planes will make them fall into the experimental category or will they retain their original normal category? The reason I ask pertains to maintenance. A guy in the hangar across from me bought an RV-7. He asked me if I knew a good mechanic and I recommended mine. When he spoke to him, my mechanic told him because of liability issues with his insurance, they won't work on experimentals. Will the same thing happen to us?

 

Good question.  No one knows. The FAA isn't talking.

[KSMooniac]

The verbiage I read mentioned a new "Primary Non Commercial" category for sensible owner-performed maintenance and modification.  It would free us to work on our planes legally, install non-TSO equipment, etc. so long as the plane is not used for commercial transportation.  The plane could be returned to the traditional certified configuration in the future by removing non-certified equipment and undergoing a conformity inspection.  We really, really need this to happen.

[ryoder]

That sounds perfect to me. I wonder if they will also lift the requirement for the inspection authorization rated mechanic for annuals? Having a "regular a&p" perform a condition inspection will cut some cost and provide more work to the young guys getting into the business and give them needed experience.

[Marauder]

The verbiage I read mentioned a new "Primary Non Commercial" category for sensible owner-performed maintenance and modification. It would free us to work on our planes legally, install non-TSO equipment, etc. so long as the plane is not used for commercial transportation. The plane could be returned to the traditional certified configuration in the future by removing non-certified equipment and undergoing a conformity inspection. We really, really need this to happen.

Thanks Scott. Wonder how the insurance companies will view the new category.

[teethdoc]

I don't know but I do know that insurance plays a big role in my A&Ps decisions. These guys assume a lot of liability. (As an aside this small businessman has had to drop health insurance with the implementation of the "Affordable" Health Care Act. The rates and deductibles went up so much it was out of the question. His wife works in the business, they have 3 small children.)

I make healthcare decisions based as much on my liability as I do what's best for the patients. It's a sad truth.