ATC asking about GPS

MooneyBob · August 23, 2014

I don't have any legal GPS unit installed in my plane. But I use IPAD with Garmin Pilot and external. GDL39 3D which is great navigational aid and it has all the current waypoints.

When ATC is asking me if I have a GPS ( my identifier is /A - no GPS) he probably wants give me a direct route based on the GPS waypoints. I know I can't use it for GPS approaches. I am talking IFR plan with visual approach.

Question: Can I tell him that I have the GPS even if it's not legal portable iPad ? Can I fly GPS route with my Garmin pilot App?

Marauder · August 23, 2014

I don't have any legal GPS unit installed in my plane. But I use IPAD with Garmin Pilot and external. GDL39 3D which is great navigational aid and it has all the current waypoints. When ATC is asking me if I have a GPS ( my identifier is /A - no GPS) he probably wants give me a direct route based on the GPS waypoints. I know I can't use it for GPS approaches. I am talking IFR plan with visual approach. Question: Can I tell him that I have the GPS even if it's not legal portable iPad ? Can I fly GPS route with my Garmin pilot App?

Here's what I did for years flying /A. Back in the early 90s I had a Garmin 95XL and later a 295 onboard. I would enter "VFR GPS" in the remarks section of the IFR flightplan and routinely would be given a radar vector to some waypoint that I could not possible reach with the VOR equipment I had onboard. The key I found out is that you need to be in radar coverage. You should never flightplan anything other than your certified navigation will allow. If you tell them you have a GPS onboard, they may assume it is a /G and you could run into issues. I would make sure they know it is a VFR GPS.

**N201MKTurbo** · August 23, 2014

I'm still /A (no databases)

I have had a portable GPS on the yoke for decades.

I don't think ATC could care less if your gps is legal or not. They just want to know if you can find the waypoint or not.

Remember that ded reckoning is legal IFR navigation.

They have stopped asking about my GPS, but ask "can you navigate to xxxxx?" To which I say "affirmative" or "I can if you give me a vector". When I contact the next sector I say "vectors to xxxxx"

**Hector** · August 23, 2014

For routine navigation I see no problem if you have a current database. Just don't try to shoot a GPS approach. I have an approved IFR GPS, but also have a panel mounted 496 as well as the iPad with stratus. I routinely use all three and have no issues trusting any of them for routine navigation. In fact, I have loaded a GPS approach in the 496 to see if it could get me down in an emergency and it tracks spot on with my legal IFR GPS (in case of a complete electrical failure the 496 would still work). That being said, they are not the same in other ways that matter. The 496 is not doing a RAIM check and other things can go wrong, so again, don't use your portable to shoot an approach but to navigate to a waypoint I see no problem.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

moodychief · August 23, 2014

When flying to and from El Paso earlier this year I was asked about a GPS. I told them I only had a VFR GPS. They wanted to keep me north of the DFW approach gates and they gave me a vectored heading with a clearance of "fly heading ### until able to fly direct to XXX VOR." I flew the heading for 45 minutes until I was receiving the VOR signal to follow the needle direct to the VOR. The did the exact same a couple of days later on the return trip. Upon receiving the VOR signal I only had to adjust my heading 5 degrees at the most.

Openwheeler3 · August 23, 2014

Last year I was flying from Indiana to New Jersey IFR. I only have a VOR Receiver and an iPad... ATC asked if I had a VFR GPS on board. When I said yes, they cleared me direct to my destination instead of following the Victor airways without any request from me. Since then I have filed direct without any complaints.

Andy95W · August 23, 2014

I'm still /A (no databases)

I have had a portable GPS on the yoke for decades.

I don't think ATC could care less if your gps is legal or not. They just want to know if you can find the waypoint or not.

Remember that ded reckoning is legal IFR navigation.

They have stopped asking about my GPS, but ask "can you navigate to xxxxx?" To which I say "affirmative" or "I can if you give me a vector". When I contact the next sector I say "vectors to xxxxx"

+1

My experience exactly.

WardHolbrook · August 23, 2014

Here's what I did for years flying /A. Back in the early 90s I had a Garmin 95XL and later a 295 onboard. I would enter "VFR GPS" in the remarks section of the IFR flightplan and routinely would be given a radar vector to some waypoint that I could not possible reach with the VOR equipment I had onboard. The key I found out is that you need to be in radar coverage. You should never flightplan anything other than your certified navigation will allow. If you tell them you have a GPS onboard, they may assume it is a /G and you could run into issues. I would make sure they know it is a VFR GPS.

Several years ago I made 3 or 4 coast-to-coast flights in a Lear 35, that had the FMS removed for repair, doing that exact same thing. I filed via jet airways as a /A with VFR GPS on board. (I had an OLD Magellan handheld aviation GPS.) Invariably they would offer me "radar vectors direct" to some point way downrange and offer me an initial heading. I would then tell them that "from where I'm at it looks like I need another XX degrees left or right". They would always concur and when I was handed off the new controller would always tell me that my heading looked correct. Easy peasy and legal. You got'a luv radar vectors.

What you DO NOT want to do is file as something that you are not or tell them that you have capabilities that you do not LEGALLY have based upon what is installed and certified in your airplane or accept a clearance that requires the use of the above mentioned legally installed and certified equipment. As the say in the barrio, that is no bueno and will get you some quality one on one time with a friendly local representative of the administrator as well as some time on the ground to ponder your transgression.

**midlifeflyer** · August 23, 2014

Flying waypoint to waypoint in the IFR system requires suitable equipment. The theoretical discussion of IFR dead reckoning is just that - theoretical. No practical value whatsoever. If you don;t think so, be my guest shutting off your navaids and flying an approach to minimums in IMC (sorry, no GPS or iPad either) based on your last estimates of the winds at different altitudes.. Or using dead reckoning to fly IFR at the MEA in mountainous terrain.

In the real world, IFR tolerances simply are not conducive to dead reckoning. The regs require "navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown" [91.205] for IFR flight. To fly direct to a point that is not a navaid itself, that means a suitable RNAV system, "an RNAV system that meets the required performance established for a type of operation, e.g. IFR; and is suitable for operation over the route to be flown in terms of any performance criteria (including accuracy) established by the air navigation service provider for certain routes (e.g. oceanic, ATS routes, and IAPs)." [1.1]

As wonderful as they are, an iPad or handheld GPS is simply not suitable RNAV systems. Period.

But, if asked, there is nothing that prevents one from informing ATC he or she has a handheld GPS or iPad with GPS capability. Not lying about having a certified IFR unit. They understand the capabilities of these systems and are happy to let you go direct to a waypoint while under radar coverage, knowing they wont have to correct your course constantly. BTDT. Because, as has been mentioned already, ATC in fact does not care what you do so long as you don't cause a problem for them. And this is all radar-monitored activity.

In the early years it was kind of a hint/hint/wink/wink but became so widespread as to be pretty much SOP for those (fewer each year) pilots flying IFR without certified boxes, folks simply (and fortunately) became above board about it.

Marauder · August 23, 2014

Several years ago I made 3 or 4 coast-to-coast flights in a Lear 35, that had the FMS removed for repair, doing that exact same thing. I filed via jet airways as a /A with VFR GPS on board. (I had an OLD Magellan handheld aviation GPS.) Invariably they would offer me "radar vectors direct" to some point way downrange and offer me an initial heading. I would then tell them that "from where I'm at it looks like I need another XX degrees left or right. When I was handed off the controllers would always tell me that my heading looked correct. Easy peasy.

And exactly the reason why I never bought a panel mounted GPS until 18 months ago. Most of my travels were in the Northeast and with radar coverage, it felt like I was flying /G most of the times.

Now that I have a WAAS unit, I can appreciate the added flexibility of the GPS approaches. Sure do miss my ADF -- NOT.

smwash02 · August 23, 2014

tl;dr You can ask for "direct radar vectors" and use your iPad because then you're not the one providing the navigation, technically, ATC is. I still filed /I, but often asked for direct radar vectors and usually got it.

Story:

I took my IFR checkride in my Cessna 150, which had a KNS80 and my 496. The precision approached required a 60 mile flight to find an ILS, which became 80 or so when you VOR hop. (Mind you this is a 150 on a 98 degree Texas day climbing to 8000 for MSAs over gross.)

As soon as we took off and I started for my first VOR, my DPE asked "What are you doing?" While explaining our route, he interrupted me and said, pointing at my yoke mounted 496,

"Does that thing work?."

"Yes, it does."

"Then we're going direct."

"But they think we're doing VOR hops."

"They'll figure it out."

I asked him to explain how that was possible. He said "If you're getting 'direct radar vectors' you can go direct even if you don't have the equipment because they're telling you how to get there."

Cruiser · August 23, 2014

here is the thing with "VFR GPS" and accepting a "direct to" clearance.

If anything goes wrong, its all on YOU. The controller will have no responsibility in the deviation.

Always ask for and get a radar vector, then you can confidently go on your merry way with the invisible guidance of your friendly controller.

**slowflyin** · August 24, 2014

Here's how it's been explained to me: If you filed correctly-/A, and your under radar coverage, upon being given a direct clearance the reply should be, Mooney XXXX, direct somewhere, via 245 degrees. It's clear and recorded as a heading not GPS. As I understand it, the caveat is you have to have radar services.

**Jerry 5TJ** · August 24, 2014

About 25 years ago I departed KADS headed west and got an IFR clearance to fly direct to a VOR. No problem, I found it on the (paper) IFR-Low chart and set the frequency...hmmm, no signal on either radio (my M20E had "full IFR panel" for the day with dual glide slopes, whoo-whee). Odd, I thought, to be cleared to a VOR I can't hear.

So I entered the VOR into the Loran, which had ALL the VORs in the entire US in its database, hot stuff for the time.

The loran showed the bearing and distance just fine...270 nmi. No surprise then that the VHF signals were not audible yet. (I lived in Maryland and wasn't used to the large scale on IFR charts in the less-crowded areas of the US)

Clearly ATC just wanted me to head that way (and get out of their DFW area ASAP) and then home on the signal in an hour or so when in range. So I did. My Loran was VFR only, by the way.

To me this discussion of VFR GPS navigation sources sounds familiar; it's been going on a while. Replace "GPS" with "Loran" and Bob's your uncle.

Perhaps someone can cite the controller documentation and tell us what ATC is supposed to do in sending IFR traffic off on vectors where own nav means DR or reliance on non-IFR gear.

Ratherbflying · August 24, 2014

http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/tip-week/it-permissible-use-vfr-only-gps-while-flying-ifr

Mark Phelp's take on this from 2010

Bob - S50 · August 24, 2014

My answer would be....

VFR... use it as much as you like and go direct to anywhere you want.

IFR... use it for situation awareness only. File VOR to VOR. The best I could suggest is that if the GPS says a heading of 097 would take you direct to XXX VOR (beyond the service volume range) then ask ATC if you could fly a heading of 097 until receiving XXX VOR and then proceed direct. Of course, the GPS will not allow for wind drift so you will need to apply that before asking for the heading. If they ask where you came up with that heading, tell them its an educated guess. Fly the ... assigned... heading. When it looks like it is off by about 5 degrees, ask ATC how the heading looks.

Bob

**midlifeflyer** · August 24, 2014

Perhaps someone can cite the controller documentation and tell us what ATC is supposed to do in sending IFR traffic off on vectors where own nav means DR or reliance on non-IFR gear.

You won't find it because (1) vectors only requires a heading indicator, (2) non-IFR gear reliance or DR while under IFR is not officially recognized or sanctioned by the FAA and (3) any direct route clearance that exceeds ground based navaid tolerances requires a radar environment, monitoring and guidance by ATC with some exceptions for IFR certified boxes (see AIM 5-1-8(c ) and Controller Handbook 4-1-2(a) as examples)

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ATC asking about GPS

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