Custome & Border Patrol Finally stopped me--with armed police

[jkhirsch]

Very, very glad to hear that this is being pursued.

[bd32322]

After speaking extensively with John Yodice, general counsel for the AOPA and the guy that writes all of their authoritative legal articles, I consented to him having the AOPA follow up with the CBP/DHS about my incident.  A few days later a couple of AOPA employees sent me an email saying:

“AOPA had a sit-down with the folks at CBP yesterday and we met with the head of the Air Interdiction effort while Mark had a good meeting with the Commissioner.  I briefly discussed the general circumstances surrounding your stop and the leadership was appalled.  They asked if I could share the information so that they could conduct an internal review and take appropriate disciplinary actions.  I advised them that I would need to check with you (didn’t reveal name or dates in my conversation) and would get back to them.”

After receiving that email, I called AOPA and had a long discussion with them expressing my fears that should I pursue this matter with CBP/DHS as they encouraged me to do for the sake of “the cause” that CBP/DHS would go to the FAA and create all sorts of havoc for me.  I’ve rarely seen a government agency investigation that didn’t try to somehow shift the blame to the complaintant and retaliate totally out of proportion to things.   But, after discussing it with my wife, we arrived at the mutual decision that we have a duty to stand up and be counted and give AOPA the go ahead.  Yeah, just like I did when I told them they couldn’t search my airplane without a search warrant and I wanted an attorney before I would talk to them anymore.  I can’t express the anxiety that I am having over having made that decision, but its done.  So what happens, happens.  Keep your fingers crossed for me and wish me luck.

Excellent and thank you!

[hindsight2020]

As a military servicemember and a private aircraft owner based 3 miles from the Mexican border, I cannot begin to express my frustration and disdain for the thugs at CBP, particularly the Air and Marine. Some of these folks are actual co-workers of mine in the Air Force Reserves. They can't look me in the eye and give me a straight answer. I can tell you most of these GS-12/13 folks take the position that  "it's just my job" and they disassociate themselves from the idea that they are tresspassing against their own brother. The pragmatism of keeping that GS job and retirement going for themselves and their families trumps these contentions, which to them as the perpetrators seem as mere academics. I personally find it a cowardly way of earning a living, but those are fighting words that I would reserve for any of them in person rather than over an anonymous web board.

 

One thing is true. I have positively scratched out flying internationally via GA due to these potential outcomes, particularly being based on the border myself. I had plans to visit my family in Puerto Rico via GA as part of a bucket list trip, but that is now only going to be accomplished when I can make the trip non-stop. On the other board I'm asking how to increase my arrow II's fuel capacity to be able to accomplish such a thing. I guess I should have bought a Mooney J; even with the standard 64 gal it would make Ft Lauderdale-Aguadilla,PR non-stop. I'm doing it one way or another. I'm not letting these thugs rob me of the freedom I fight for every day I put that flight suit on.

[aviatoreb]

Same here. I do not know how much did the eAPIS costs to get established, and how much it costs to maintain... but it is a waste of money. The worst is about asking permission to leave the U.S. I have no clue why they instated this. Can anyone explain to me the security this provides?

Yves

 

The three times I fly into Canada - and I have can pass, was very pleasant.  Twice no one was there to meet me and I then called the required phone number, and got a pleasant "welcome to Canada".  Once I was met - at Cornwall - and two very pleasant fellows checked me in and asked me where I was going which is obviously part of their required interrogation but it felt more like they were just interested and it too was pleasant.  As I reported earlier, all three times returning was very unpleasant, once including a one hour stop.

 

I just don't get what they are thinking - are they really stopping actual "bad guys" who go through the trouble of following all the many rules?  I mean what bad guy files an eAPIS, files an IFR flight plan, checks in the flight plan to get a squak code and cross the border in positive atc control, and oh, phones ahead the specific port of entry to make sure that there are agents ready to meet them.

 

Meanwhile, just 15 miles from here, there are cigarettes being run across the border in speed boats on the reservation.

[aviatoreb]

As a military servicemember and a private aircraft owner based 3 miles from the Mexican border, I cannot begin to express my frustration and disdain for the thugs at CBP, particularly the Air and Marine. Some of these folks are actual co-workers of mine in the Air Force Reserves. They can't look me in the eye and give me a straight answer. I can tell you most of these GS-12/13 folks take the position that  "it's just my job" and they disassociate themselves from the idea that they are tresspassing against their own brother. The pragmatism of keeping that GS job and retirement going for themselves and their families trumps these contentions, which to them as the perpetrators seem as mere academics. I personally find it a cowardly way of earning a living, but those are fighting words that I would reserve for any of them in person rather than over an anonymous web board.

 

One thing is true. I have positively scratched out flying internationally via GA due to these potential outcomes, particularly being based on the border myself. I had plans to visit my family in Puerto Rico via GA as part of a bucket list trip, but that is now only going to be accomplished when I can make the trip non-stop. On the other board I'm asking how to increase my arrow II's fuel capacity to be able to accomplish such a thing. I guess I should have bought a Mooney J; even with the standard 64 gal it would make Ft Lauderdale-Aguadilla,PR non-stop. I'm doing it one way or another. I'm not letting these thugs rob me of the freedom I fight for every day I put that flight suit on.

 

Thanks for your report hindsight.  Very informative.

 

Just following orders?  Sounds like what the Nazi guards said.  But could these guys really be getting orders to harass people to this degree?  To slash ladies tires and leave them in the desert with small children?  At some point they must be improvising their own nastiness.  I would guess this is partly following orders and simple lack of sufficient control and oversight by the leadership.

[rockydoc]

Same here. I do not know how much did the eAPIS costs to get established, and how much it costs to maintain... but it is a waste of money. The worst is about asking pe(rmission to leave the U.S. I have no clue why they instated this. Can anyone explain to me the security this provides?

Yves

Interesting you should mention needing permission to leave the USA.  A couple of years ago I corresponded with DHS and was told that it is against federal law for a US citizen to "leave or attempt to leave" the USA without a valid passport.  I asked what the penalty for doing so was.  The said, "At this time there is no penalty."  I remember with Linus Pauling (of Vit C and cholesterol fame) was alive--the only person in history to have won 2 earned Noble Peace Prizes and a long time tenured professor at a NW university.  He, like Bobby Fisher, applied for a US passport to attend an international congress and, like Fisher, was denied by the US Department of State.  This really surprised me.  It sounds like the US, like China, Russia, Cuba, N. Korea, is holding its citizens as prisoners--should they so desire.  Food for thought, eh?

[Guest]

I understand that as a citizen of a foreign country being asked about my comings and goings while crossing our mutual boarder, I've always found it interesting that citizens of the US require permission to leave their own country, the supposed bastion of global freedom.

Clarence

[mike_elliott]

I understand that as a citizen of a foreign country being asked about my comings and goings while crossing our mutual boarder, I've always found it interesting that citizens of the US require permission to leave their own country, the supposed bastion of global freedom.

Clarence

I don't think you have to ask permission to leave the USA, unless of course, you are in a small plane. 

[yvesg]

Interesting you should mention needing permission to leave the USA.  A couple of years ago I corresponded with DHS and was told that it is against federal law for a US citizen to "leave or attempt to leave" the USA without a valid passport.  I asked what the penalty for doing so was.  The said, "At this time there is no penalty."  I remember with Linus Pauling (of Vit C and cholesterol fame) was alive--the only person in history to have won 2 earned Noble Peace Prizes and a long time tenured professor at a NW university.  He, like Bobby Fisher, applied for a US passport to attend an international congress and, like Fisher, was denied by the US Department of State.  This really surprised me.  It sounds like the US, like China, Russia, Cuba, N. Korea, is holding its citizens as prisoners--should they so desire.  Food for thought, eh?

As a law abiding foreigner, last year when me and the wife went to visit my good friend Matt in New Hampshire, when returning I did a departing eAPIS submission from his home computer. When I got to the airport, I still did not get the "you are free to depart" email from them.... I called Burlington and they could not find it so I had to submit at the last minute via my iPAD another one...the CBP officer on the phone finally gave the thumbs-up

Now gess what... at the time I was VFR only. I had to divert to Vermont due to bad enroute weather. We landed at night and there was no-one on the ground... I called the FSS to cancel the flight plan and then called a cab to get to a motel. The next day the runway was NOTAM closed due to painting on the runway... we rented a car and drove home. 3 days later I drove back to retrieve the aircraft and return the rental car. When I submitted a departing eAPIS, I was the only soul on board.

I had no question from the CBP officer about the fact that when I entered the USA we were two and now I am alone... did I loose one passenger there?

I had another weird exchange from a CBP officer in Michigan last summer returning from Oshkosh. I called a second time to correct a departing time error and the officer was quite upset and said that they did not care and that I should contact Canadian border people instead.

So my final conclusion is that when you depart USA, they don't verify if you actually did and they don't seem to care either.

Yves

[aviatoreb]

So my final conclusion is that when you depart USA, they don't verify if you actually did and they don't seem to care either.

Yves

 

One time when I left the USA for Canada, I called the local port authority as required by regs - I phoned the CBP post at KOGS (Ogdensburg).  The CBP officer seemed surprised I was calling to announce my departure and told me I didn't need to do that (and bother them).  I knew it is a rule, so yes, I did the same the next time. No one must have briefed that officer.

[rockydoc]

I don't think you have to ask permission to leave the USA, unless of course, you are in a small plane. 

Since it is against federal law to leave (or attempt to leave) with out a passport and since a passport is a privilege (like a pilot's license) and not a right, you do in reality have to ask permission to leave.

[rockydoc]

One time when I left the USA for Canada, I called the local port authority as required by regs - I phoned the CBP post at KOGS (Ogdensburg).  The CBP officer seemed surprised I was calling to announce my departure and told me I didn't need to do that (and bother them).  I knew it is a rule, so yes, I did the same the next time. No one must have briefed that officer.

I had the same experience.

[rockydoc]

Here is a copy of my correspondence with CBP regarding the illegality of a US citizen leaving (or attempting to leave) the US without a valid passport along with the statement that at the present time there is no penalty for doing so:

 

-CBP INFO Center<customs@customs-mail.custhelp.com> <customs@customs-mail.custhelp.com> wrote:

From: CBP INFO Center<customs@customs-mail.custhelp.com> <customs@customs-mail.custhelp.com>

Subject: What is the penalty should a us citizen leave the us without a valid us passport... 

 Subject

What is the penalty should a us citizen leave the us without a valid us passport...  

 Discussion Thread

 Response (Mark)

 

Currently there is no penalty for violating the law. For more information the best thing to do is contact the border port where you usually cross. The CBP officers there can explain their procedures for these situations.

Mark

 

 Customer

  Thanks again Mark. I think we're making some progress. 

CFR 53.1 states: "§ 53.1 Passport requirement; definitions. 

(a) It is unlawful for a citizen of the United States, unless excepted under 22 CFR 53.2, to enter or depart, or attempt to enter or depart, the United States, without a valid U.S. passport. 

So Mark, if it is "unlawful" what is the penalty for violating the law? That is my question. 

Thank you for answering. 

 CBP INFO Center wrote: 

From: CBP INFO 

Center 

Subject: What is the penalty should a us citizen leave the us without a valid us passport... 

 

 Response (Mark)

  Officially a US citizen is supposed to have a passport or other approved document unless exempt, but currently there is no penalty for US citizens who do not have one. Here is a link to the CFRs. The best way to avoid any hassles is to get one of the approved IDs.

Mark

 

 Customer

  Thank you Mark. 

Do I understand you correctly? 

Are you saying that if a US citizen LEAVES THE USA without a passport there would be no penalty or fine because he has violated no law?. That is my important question that I need answered please. 

I understand what you say that when the USA citizen returns to the USA he would be delayed if he didn't have proper documentation. 

[mike_elliott]

Since it is against federal law to leave (or attempt to leave) with out a passport and since a passport is a privilege (like a pilot's license) and not a right, you do in reality have to ask permission to leave.

I don't follow that logic, rockydoc. By possessing a passport, you are not asking permission to leave the country, you are asking permission to possess a passport only. 

[rockydoc]

I don't follow that logic, rockydoc. By possessing a passport, you are not asking permission to leave the country, you are asking permission to possess a passport only. 

Yes, I see what you mean. 

[Yetti]

Do I understand you correctly? 
Are you saying that if a US citizen LEAVES THE USA without a passport there would be no penalty or fine because he has violated no law?. That is my important question that I need answered please. 
I understand what you say that when the USA citizen returns to the USA he would be delayed if he didn't have proper documentation.

 

It is possible to be against the law, but the law does not specify a penalty for violating the law.   Pipeline act of 2001 was written and passed, Companies figured out there was no penalty for not complying.   Congress come back and figures out there is penalty to a law they passed and amends it to have a penalty.

[flyboy0681]

Yet another horrible example.  i.e.  a young mother, US citizen, with her children taking them home from school, stopped by CBP, threatened with a tazer, tire slashed and her left in the middle of the desert during the day with her children to fend for herself!!!   My case pales in comparison to this and sooooooooooo many others.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/04/29/border-patrol-threatens-mother-slashes-h

 

One word, nine letters: appalling.

[sleepingsquirrel]

.......... They can't look me in the eye and give me a straight answer. I can tell you most of these GS-12/13 folks take the position that  "it's just my job" and they disassociate themselves from the idea that they are tresspassing against their own brother. The pragmatism of keeping that GS job and retirement going for themselves and their families trumps these contentions, which to them as the perpetrators seem as mere academics........

 

 

Not the first time history has recorded this ,I think before it was..."I was just following orders".........

[PMcClure]

As a military servicemember and a private aircraft owner based 3 miles from the Mexican border, I cannot begin to express my frustration and disdain for the thugs at CBP, particularly the Air and Marine. Some of these folks are actual co-workers of mine in the Air Force Reserves. They can't look me in the eye and give me a straight answer. I can tell you most of these GS-12/13 folks take the position that  "it's just my job" and they disassociate themselves from the idea that they are tresspassing against their own brother. The pragmatism of keeping that GS job and retirement going for themselves and their families trumps these contentions, which to them as the perpetrators seem as mere academics. I personally find it a cowardly way of earning a living, but those are fighting words that I would reserve for any of them in person rather than over an anonymous web board.

 

One thing is true. I have positively scratched out flying internationally via GA due to these potential outcomes, particularly being based on the border myself. I had plans to visit my family in Puerto Rico via GA as part of a bucket list trip, but that is now only going to be accomplished when I can make the trip non-stop. On the other board I'm asking how to increase my arrow II's fuel capacity to be able to accomplish such a thing. I guess I should have bought a Mooney J; even with the standard 64 gal it would make Ft Lauderdale-Aguadilla,PR non-stop. I'm doing it one way or another. I'm not letting these thugs rob me of the freedom I fight for every day I put that flight suit on.

I feel your pain but suggest we all continue practicing our rights and privileges as much as we can. It is the best way we can defend them. If they do end up stopping an Air Force Reserve or other serviceman and treat them the same way, it may be just what it takes to set the system on fire. 

[rockydoc]

Do I understand you correctly? 

Are you saying that if a US citizen LEAVES THE USA without a passport there would be no penalty or fine because he has violated no law?. That is my important question that I need answered please. 

I understand what you say that when the USA citizen returns to the USA he would be delayed if he didn't have proper documentation.

 

It is possible to be against the law, but the law does not specify a penalty for violating the law.   Pipeline act of 2001 was written and passed, Companies figured out there was no penalty for not complying.   Congress come back and figures out there is penalty to a law they passed and amends it to have a penalty.

Yes, you understood correctly.  Federal Law CFR 53.1 states it is illegal, to leave without a passport, but according to the response I got from Mark at CBP, there is no penalty for violating the law.  Also, a US citizen, with DHS acceptable proof of US citizenship would not have to have a passport to enter the USA, BUT they might be delayed while US citizenship is being verified.

[AndyFromCB]

I understand that as a citizen of a foreign country being asked about my comings and goings while crossing our mutual boarder, I've always found it interesting that citizens of the US require permission to leave their own country, the supposed bastion of global freedom.

Clarence

 

Freedom(™)

 

[mike_elliott]

submitted without opinion

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[PTK]

Since it is against federal law to leave (or attempt to leave) with out a passport and since a passport is a privilege (like a pilot's license) and not a right, you do in reality have to ask permission to leave.

Yes, and this is a great! You want to be afforded all the protections the US government offers to it's citizens.

 

To hold a US Passport is a privilege and an honor.

 

The purpose of the document is to show countries you're visiting that you are a legal citizen of the USA. As such and only as such you, and through the US government, are asking permission of other nations to cross their borders.

 

I don't see why someone would want to or, frankly, should be allowed to leave the US without a passport.

[PTK]

submitted without opinion

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Personally, I don't have a high regard of what the NY Times has to say!

[rockydoc]

Yes, and this is a great! You want to be afforded all the protections the US government offers to it's citizens.

 

To hold a US Passport is a privilege and an honor.

 

The purpose of the document is to show countries you're visiting that you are a legal citizen of the USA. As such and only as such you, and through the US government, are asking permission of other nations to cross their borders.

 

I don't see why someone would want to or, frankly, should be allowed to leave the US without a passport.

I imagine there are many people who agree with your point of view.