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Density altitude affects the alveolar gas equation (what determines the level or more accurately the partial pressure) of oxygen in the gas exchange parts of your lungs. The more water vapor the higher the density altitude and and lower partial pressure of oxygen. Partial pressure is what drives oxygenation. However this is moot in the very dry environment of breathing oxygen via mask or ambient air in the flight levels. The reason I asked about pulse oximetry is that spot checks are not the ideal way to monitor ... Continuous oximetry is. Don't get me wrong, spot checks are 1000x better than no oximetry at all, but not as useful as trending and being able to set an alarm at a predefined value (probably 94% as a lower limit in someone with baseline healthy lungs) BEFORE the insidious symptoms of hypoxia set in. For those who have altitude chamber experience, you might be a bit safer with intermittent checks, but symptoms can vary with things like age (alt chamber in your 20s may not be the same as when you're 50), fatigue, hydration status, etc. The other factor I'd like the group to consider is that the maximal Percent of oxygen that you will get with a nasal cannula setup regardless of whether it has a nerdy looking reservoir thingy is about 30-35% because you are entraining ambient air along with it even if you jack up the flow rate to 4 or 6 liters per minute. With a simple face mask at 6-8 liters per minute you can expect between 40-60% oxygen that you breathe. A non re breathing face mask (the kind with the bag similar to the principle that the fancy airliner masks use) can provide about 85-95% oxygen I ideal conditions using between 10-15 liters per minute of pure oxygen. What does this mean in real life? Well using the gas equation, and a nasal cannula at FL240 with about 400 mmHg standard atmosphere and assuming no water vapor, you can expect an alveolar oxygen pressure of 70 which equates to an oxygen sat of somewhere near 90-92%. Using a simple face mask you start out with an alveolar pressure of 150 and that equates to an oxygen sat of 99%. A non rebreather mask wouldn't help the saturation much more but they would give you a longer reserve should your oxygen apparatus quit functioning. In that situation you'd start out with an alveolar oxygen pressure of 350. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think the NFL will let me play. I have deflated balls.

Hi Carusoam, It's basically and F that was modified to duplicate an Ovation in terms of wing and tail, to fuselage proportions. The wings were clipped and fitted with custom made wing tips, increased elevator and rudder fitted, new engine mount for the Continental IO520 - 285hp, three bladed prop, the complete nose wheel assembly was moved forward to be better positioned under the engine, as per Ovation spec, etc. As you can see, it has the SWTA 201 windshield and somehow, they kept the two inspection panels that grants access to the rear of the instrument panel from the outside - these are quite a bit smaller than the original panels, but they're there! The cowling was handmade from the proper grade aluminum and it has speed brakes installed in the wings. Fuel quantity was increased to 72 gal, it has an awesome interior with lengthened luggage bay, two luggage bay doors - one on each side, and so on. It's rather basically equipped in terms of avionics and instruments, but it does have a S-Tec 50 autopilot and an EDM700. I've flown it and it goes absolutely like crazy. Take off performance and climb is potent and it cruises along at a rather satisfactory 175kts GS in no wind conditions. IIRC, the IAS sits at around 155kts in the cruise. Although it is a one of a kind, suited for a specific type of owner, I really love this Mooney. Here's an in flight picture:

Lots of good information in this thread. One more very important thing should be mentioned, though. Hypoxia isn't the only issue with flying high. Another big issue that affects some people more than others and is a major issue with U2 pilots and can be a deadly as hypoxia is the BENDS. It is also cumulative. I've had to deal with that issue for the duration of my Mooney ownership. Initially, I didn't know what was happening to my number 2. She complained about joint pain after 3 hours aloft. It was only after a stop in Rock Springs on the way to Oshkosh one year that I knew I had to find out what was going on. Her whole chest was covered with blotches. In hindsight we should have found the nearest hyperbaric chamber, but I was oblivious to what was going on at the time. Later, calls to Brooks Air Force Hospital in San Antonio and an actual trip to the University of North Dakota brought the issue to the forefront for us. Over the past 10 years we have mitigated her problems and she has not suffered any incidences of the Bends since. There are 5 means of mitigation: 1. Pre breath O2 with a sealed mask for ½ hour before flying. (Not really practical for us). 2. Take an aspirin 1 hour before flight. 3. Hydration--drink plenty of water 4. Slow ascent rate 5. Time aloft. What I have found works best is the aspirin, water, slow ascent rate, but most important is time aloft. 3 hours is the maximum I'll fly with her. We have experienced an incident within that time frame only once many years ago. It was at 17,000 feet and a descent to 13,000 mitigated the issue. The good news for me (and her) is I don't fly in the flight levels. 18,000 feet is tops for me on extended range. Usually I'll fly 15,000 to 17,000 feet. The difference in true airspeed between those altitudes and higher just isn't that much. I will sometimes climb to 20,000 for 10 minutes when going over the Sierras, but immediately descend when the terrain risk subsides. If the weather is bad enough to required a climb to the flight levels, we land or don't go at all. We've ended up having some great experiences is places we never would have gone. So consider the Bends issue when you are flying high for an extended period of time in addition to the hypoxia issue. It can occur at a much lower altitude than you might think. Regarding O2 use for me: above 7,500 feet during the day and from engine start to engine stop at night.

Noooooo - I love my F, but unfortunately, we're outgrowing it and it is struggling to meet the requirements of my mission, which I fly 90% of the time. It simply can't carry the weight anymore and I have a minimum fuel requirement for this flight. So, I've decided to sell my F and get something that goes as fast or faster, but which can also carry more weight and have the range. Unfortunately, the local used aircraft market is just about at a complete standstill, even more so when it comes to vintage Mooney's. C's and E's are even worse, advertised at giveaway prices, but there aren't any takers. J's are generally moving all the time though. Just to confirm my loyalty to the F, I saw that modified monster F again yesterday, while viewing a C210, and I there and then decided that if I can live with the "limited" weight carrying ability of the F, while cruising at 175kts!!! So I made an offer on it. Watch this space...

Tom Brady is the Anti-Christ and probably flies a Bonanza. Go Blackhawks!!!

She'd have to be plutonium hot for me to put up with that !

PMcClure, Let me know when you reach this part of the state. The weather right now is beautiful!

Sunday saw the rare combination of clear skies, smooth air and free time! I have not had much time to fly this year and barely have keep currency. I set off of KPLR with not much plan except to do some flying. The air was as clear as I have ever seen in Alabama, unlimited visibility and bright, golden sunshine. After breaking off a RNAV 3 approach practice at the home drone, due to too much traffic, I punched KGAD in the Garmin and loaded the RNAV 36 approach and hand flew it. Taking off, I headed east to KPYP, a country field near the GA boarder. The sunshine and clear air called me north to Ft. Payne, then over to Scottsboro then finally to Guntersville, where I landed at the new 3300 ft runway. The farms and low hills of Eastern Alabama make for some beautiful sightseeing. After flying home to KPLR, I landed, cleaned the windscreen, fueled up and did several night approaches and landings. I imagined how jealous the folks on the boats below must have been to see me have total freedom. 3 hours total, three approaches, over 10 landings and 4 new airports, never used the A/P. Late Sept and October is hard to beat for flying in Alabama. I may start a plan to check off all the Alabama airports. Pictures attached.

There has been a lot said here that you need to run a conti conservatively to make tbo with the cylinders - and also that the cylinders are crap and that turbos are implicated. Here is the real story that I have gathered by reading many sources but I will just summarize what I read - and my own direct observation - rather than trying to track down all the sources. Continental designed a superb engine. It runs great. They used to build a great engine but sometime about 20 or 15 years ago they went cheap and made personnel changes that resulted in a much lower quality build. Specifically relevant to this discussion, they no longer put the care into building cylinders that they should - and the valve assembly was a weak point. Those valves were not seating well direct from the factory when new. I read from beechtalk this statement, and he (I forgot which one but it was one of the guys who runs the GAMI-APS program) said that when you have a cylinder with a crappy built valve assembly gasses will leak by and no matter how you run the engine, conservatively, LOP, ROP, or not, you will need to overhaul that (and others too) cylinder by 1000 hrs at least. So - what do you know - my own engine started showing two bad cylinders at 980 hours - right on schedule (3 years ago ago). I only owned and operated my airplane since the engine had 750hrs. It had gone from all good signs and compressions in the low 70s to one very weak cylinder (in the 20s) and one with singificant blow-by sounds and compressions in the 50s. So overhaul those two at least was called for. When we got those two cylinders off - I was appalled to see the workmanship on those cylinders. They were just not seating very well - just like I read from numerous sources. ANd this is not an issue of it wearing out - this is how it was built- built poorly. So I decided right there to do a top since i then suspected the other cylinders were probably built the same poor standard. I decided to buy new cylinders (from a company other than continental since I was mad at them - but in retrospect, that doesnt matter) and furthermore, I decided to have the valves worked by an expert cylinder guy to seat nice and tight (called lapping). That last step, I will do with every overhaul or cylinder to be installed in my engine henceforth - a little extra spent up front can save I think down the road. So that's the main thing for the fleet of conty engines - leaking hot exhaust gases past poorly built valve cylinders directly from the factory. IF YOU HAVE A POORLY BUILT cylinder - there is NOTHING you can do from the pilot seat that will make that cylinder go to tbo. This applies to turbo or NA. According to the material I read by the GAMI-APS guy on beechtalk - he said that even a conservatively operated engine that has a poorly built cylinder with a poorly built valve assembly will not go the distance. My own continental engine now has about 400 hours on the new cylinders and all compressions were 77 or higher at last check - knock on wood. The rocket is very easy to keep the cylinders cool - that is the temps are easy to maintain at <380F CHT at all times. This is one factor in the pilot operating that can help so I hear and I am working hard on it. They say its controlling CHT's and also ICPs that make cylinders last. Both of those are controllable by the pilot by knowing how to operate the red knob. And not going crazy with the black knob. This is true whether its conty or lycosaurus. But as I said, it also takes a properly built cylinder in the first place and conty for a long stretch had a major workmanship problem in the valves department (supposedly that is fixed now on their factory floor - but I will still be reworking any valve assembly that goes installed into my airplane, new or not). The Acclaim problem is none of the above, according to the AD, as already stated - it has a special problem related to coking of the breather - a fixable problem. Once that is fixed, then it will be subject to all the 3 problems above (1) CHTs - keep em under control with the red knob and pitching for enough speed and step climbing if you need (2) ICPs - high power leads to higher chts but also stress on the cylinders - and high power in the winter may not lead to high temps but still high icp - also the red knob controls where in the power stroke (angle) the combustion occurs and that has cht and icp implications. (3) valves need to be built right and there is nothing the pilot can do about operating the airplane out of this gotcha- only the pilot-owner can fix this by making sure only good valves are in the plane.

http://generalaviationnews.com/2015/02/01/picture-of-the-day-chicken-strip-takeoff/ I really want to take my M20C down here sometime this winter! Bryan Painter has done it... However, I consider myself an 'average skilled' Mooney pilot when it comes to unimproved strips. 1400' gravel is pushing the limit of what I'm comfortable with, even with the slope!

Robert, your donation to the Mooney Summit will give you a good shot at winning a new Concorde battery! Hope it happens for you!

Sorry Teejayevans, after re-reading my post I may have sounded like a jerk - but not my intention. I thought you were thinking along physiological lines. Jeff nailed it - which was what I thought would be the case. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well from wikipedia"The power output of the engine — power output depends on oxygen intake, so the engine output is reduced as the equivalent dry air density decreases and produces even less power as moisture displaces oxygen in more humid conditions." If it affects the engine's oxygen intake, it seemed reasonable it might affect ours, hence the question

It's a 3 hour drive on a horrible 50 mile dirt road(for a lot of it I wouldn't even call it a road) from the pavement. So flying in is a great option. I see no problems taking an early model Mooney in as long as the strip is in good condition. If I had my old AD Hartzell prop I would take my Mooney in. I recently upgrade to a new Top Prop so as of now I will also pass taking my Mooney in.

Wow. This summit seems to keep getting better and better. I hope the weather is just as nice as last year.

Yes, but they are more for medical professionals. Here is the ear clip only at $172 and you still have to purchase the $325 unit. http://www.sourcemedicalequipment.com/Nonin-8000Q2-Ear-Clip-Sensor-p/8000q2.htm?gclid=COr10-3Q-ccCFRRlfgodUoMCjg&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=8000Q2 http://www.sourcemedicalequipment.com/Nonin-8500-Hand-Held-Pulse-Oximeter-p/8500.htm

I forgot to add, after being completed, this airplane was subjected to many, many hours of test flights. Certain areas of the fuselage structure was also strengthened by welding in extra tubing at certain points and this whole project was overseen and signed off by an FAA official, all the way from the US. The FAA supplied a complete document of many pages, stipulating everything that this airplane had to comply with and tests it had to pass. Hard to believe if you look at the current state of our CAA and today, this would not be even remotely possible. I guess you can say this airplane is similar to a Missile.

9 inches of uncompressed clearance

+1 what Clarence and John said. I recently had this done to my J and it involved a lot of trial and error adjustments. Don't expect to get it right the first time. Victor

I found this on Hillary's server!

A lot of us in the snow belt complain about hard winters. I couldn't imagine going through what you guys are. It is one thing in a really cold winter to throw another log on the fire to stay warm, quite another to remove a burning log from the fire. Stay safe! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I like that it comes coupled with a CO detector- yet another relevant topic when thinking generally about pilot incapacitation. Pulse oximeters are revolutionary devices that have transformed health care, but they can be fickle too, and their limitations are worth keeping in mind. The biggest one is that they behave erratically with decreased blood flow on a cold finger - this is more a problem for some folks like me who get poor blood flow at extremities at times, even without cold temps. They typically read too low or won't pick up at all in this condition. Secondly, they are useless for detecting CO poisoning- your blood's O2 carrying capacity could be wiped out in this circumstance, but the oximeter might still read 99%. Lastly they tend to read higher than is real with dropping O2 saturation in dark-skinned people.

I have lost track - but I manage to get out there at least 4 hrs a week since May 1 - so roughly 80 hrs so far.

The big difference with this panel mounted unit is the reminders that it emits to test yourself. Part of the problem with hypoxia is the sense of wellness. Unless you are Dan's wife who reminds you, if you are becoming hypoxic you may need a reminder...

i had one go bad in my Sundowner. Took it out and removed the lever (cotter pin). The plunger in the switch was stuck. Pulled out the plunger and a lot of fine dust/dirt came out with it. Flushed it out with mineral spirits, put it back together and it worked just fine. Had my A&P re-install. Still worked 3 years later. It might be same problem as yours. Bill

Awesome pics! Sent from my Galaxy S5 via Tapatalk

As DXB has eloquently summarized, the physiology of hypoxia occurring at altitude in our Mooneys is very different from that of either breath holding or decompression. As one ascends in a non-pressurized Mooney, the body remains at anbient pressure. When supplemental oxygen is decreased (or removed), there is no decompression event. Respiration and gas exchange continues with a diminished amount of oxygen, an amount which may be significantly less than at sea level, depending on altitude. Experiencing hypoxia in a controlled environment is certainly educational, particularly in the recognition of one's physiologic reaction to hypoxia. It is important to note that one's cognitive function can decrease with even mild hypoxia; studies have shown that volunteers have difficulty performing simple math calculations when mildly hypoxic (calculations they could easily perform at baseline.) As Don Muncy has posted, with the slow and insidious onset of an hypoxic event, the symptoms which occur may not be recognized because cognitive impairment may have already occurred. Thus, hypoxia is unrecognized. Worse, judgement is impaired and even if the hypoxia is recognized, one may not be able to (think to) execute the appropriate corrective measures. Hopefully the discussion in this forum will promote a better understanding of the physiology and risks of flying at hypoxic altitudes and what best mitigates those risks. For a comprehensive review of breath holding physiology: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/expphysiol.2005.031625/full.

Took her flying surfaces over to get balanced today - it was a gorgeous day so I pulled her out in the sun...

it is $1100.00 for eight firewall forward fancy internal fire sleeved silicon hoses from PHT when you by the whole set

They are the formers were the belly skins attach to! I've never seen any not bent or destroyed!!

Yes, this is very typical. Our Mooneys are probably the best and most easily repaired aircraft to have a gear up with.

It's not interesting at all. It was overhauled by Triad in Erwin, NC. All core engine parts were refurbished by R Roman. Case went to Divco. Fuel system was ovehauled from servo to flow divider. Mags and fuel pump exchanged. This is a relatively low time bird. What is interesting is that the cam has survived 37 years with <3000hrs. Maybe it was flown weekly for at least an hour. Maybe he ran cam guard in it before camguard was invented. Maybe he had an engine dryer and silica spark plug inserts...but my bet is that in the 70s, Lycoming had their production lines cranking and their QC in order. In the following decades, I think they made several batches of $hit cams.

We are working at getting the chamber ride at Tindall for next year's Mooney Summit with the USAF. We tried to get it this year, but it was unavailable for the dates we needed it. Additionally, the FAA has a portable Oxygen depreviation "ride" and a spatial disorientation ride we are trying to secure for next year, budget permitting.

I flew to 4 or 5 road races last year. The coolest was Greenville SC. Seven mile loop around the airport. We literally tied down 400' from the start finish. Hanging out in the Hincapie motor home there too. We hosted the Hincapie team a couple years for the race in Chattanooga. One Atlanta race I got in a crash, skinned up etc and my long time bike racing buddy questioned what I would do when I broke something and couldn't fly back. Never thought about it but keeping the distance within a reasonable drive and it shouldn't present any huge issue. Several of the races I had a 5-7 mile ride to get there. Just made it more fun. I have a couple of these chain covers (link below) but with a moving blanket laid out on the floor and using one of the long flexible twisty wraps (Home Depot) to hold the copilot seat tight to the yoke its easy not to get grease anywhere. I don't even bother covering the chain anymore. https://www.coloradocyclist.com/white-lightning-chain-johnny?gclid=CLSI-LDC9ccCFVg6gQodDZkPpQ My grandaughter and me:

When I bought my TLS at 13xx TT the cylinders were shot (thanks Don Maxwell and the prebuy) I believe this was due to the previous owner running too high of a TIT (1650, more ?) even though it was in spec. I had those cylinders remand'd with the nickel process and never have run over 1615TIT and actual now days I run right at 1600TIT. So far about 600 hrs later I'm still at one quart of oil for 25 hours. I am as biased as one could be, but for the money there is NO better airplane out there than a Bravo. Compare the prices and performance against an Acclaim and you just have to really really want a newer airplane to make that jump....AND you get to keep the house :-) Take the rear seats out (reference my bicycle post) and it's almost an unbelievable amount of room compared to other airplanes. Something all long body guys should know......you DO know how to take the seats in and out right ? ;-) it takes 3 or 4 minutes.

You put your flight jacket on the 180hp engine?

No, but the naturally aspirated, 180hp engine up front does. :-)

Quite right - I thought the word lapping included working the geometry. I went with Victor Aviation since they claimed to spend special attention to shaping the valve geometry and I feel it is well worth it to pay attention to this factor. So far I have been very happy with the result.

Everyone that I have talked to recommend that CHTs below 400 is the best way to improve cylinder life. Are you using an engine monitor? When you lean out, which cylinder is running the leanest and the richest? That will help clue you in as well. If #2 leans first and you have a significant reduction in fuel flow before the last cylinder leans then #2 may be running at peak EGT ... thereby giving you high CHT. Are you running GAMI's? I run LOP in my 231 with a -LB engine. GAMI did such a good job of balancing my injectors all the cylinders lean out within 1/4 turn of the mixture control knob. Highest CHT is usually 350-355 for cylinder #4. The rest run around 15-20 degrees cooler. #6 is the coolest. TIT is 1525-1550. 65% power @ 9.9 GPH gives me 165 knots. I imagine that #2 on a -MB is right next to the oil cooler as in the -LB. You may want to check the cooler and the baffles between #4 and #2 to make sure everything is OK after you find out if #2 is running the leanest.

Erik's summary is spot-on. There are numerous well-respected shops in the Beech world that provide very long-lasting engines, and one of their steps is to buy new CMI cylinders, un-box them, disassemble them, and re-work all of the valves. Years ago CMI deleted the careful steps required for long-lasting valves and opted to just install parts out of the bin with no regard to how well they fit together. It was good enough to get past the warranty period in most instances. It does not matter if the operator ran ROP or LOP for this failure mode. Heat and pressure related failures, though, are certainly influenced by the operator. I'm sure a lot of the Acclaim issues were due to this and the stupid breather arrangement, but some certainly could have been due to the valve workmanship from the CMI factory as well.

You don't pick a speed. You fly at 70 to 75% power per the POH, and take whatever speed you get. There are significant differences between individual planes.

I wrote a response that seems to have dissapeared.... it went something like this... take a look at TC'd and TN'd planes in general. When they are used as traveling machines pressed into service at high power settings at high altitudes they move very quickly. high ICPs and CHTs cause the additional wear on the cylinders. This can be considered normal wear and tear for the greatness of fabulous climb rates and wonderous ground speeds. the good news, you can still fly conservatively (LOP and CHTs) and preserve your cylinders. Or, you fly the cylinders off it with sustained climb rates over 1500 fpm to the FLs and GS over 200kts... I went with the NA O for the same logic. I am an LOP guy. I expected that a set of cylinders could be in the future, but knew that LOP and good CHT monitoring/management can make them last. go acclaim! -a-

I know it's a broad statement, and it doesn't directly answer your question, but it's most likely in the engine management techniques of the previous owners. Also, it is more difficult to operate those deep breathing engines. If a pilot doesn't know what they are doing, they can hurt the engine very badly one time, or slowly hurt it over time. I've seen engines that needed a top at the 400-500 hour marks like you're seeing. I've seen engines with 1800 hours on them that are a thing of beauty inside. A popular thought is that Continentals burn up cylinders, and Lycomings burn up camshafts. But really, it's all on the pilot. Have you had problems in the past with cylinders?

I installed the Reiff pre-heater a couple of years ago. Works well.

Okay, so here's mine: 1.) I hope to God nobody died with me. 2.) Please know that I died doing something I truly loved doing, and I am grateful for that. 3.) If I died as the result of something that was not my fault, I hereby give authorization to speculate all you want, as long as you learn from what happened to me. You also have my permission to question my judgement all you want, so long as you learn from me. And please set the record straight when the facts come out. 4.) If I died as the result of my own stupidity, you have my permission to rake me over the coals and call me out for what I did, as long as you learned from what I did wrong.

yeah, I was surprised by the appparent drop in groundspeed so fast, something wrong with the data or really wrong with the plane... This is a tragedy but what comes to mind is a saying alot of pilots say around here : it take 45 hours to learn how to fly, but a life time to learn when to fly. This year I missed the Mooney Caravan because of weather, it was very frustrating, spending 2 full days at the airport waiting for a window to leave, but everytime either me or my copilot were uneasy about something in the forecast, so we waited until we both were ok with the weather and gave a mutual and confident go before we launched. We all wished he would have delayed his launch or that the outcome would be different. Sad situation. We need to learn from these tragedies, understand why and how it happen and educate ourselves to avoid similar situations. May he rest in piece.

Well Todd, you've had a lot of great advice here. Consider this, I have a 158 kt, 50 year old E model. I suppose the panel which is ready for 2020 (GTN750 + GDL88) has traffic, weather, Stormscope, STEC50 A/P, speed brakes, bladders, PFS tuned exaust, AOA, manual gear, hydraulic flaps, dual LED landing lights, 201 windshield and cowl, EDM 930, Scimitar prop... would be more modern than 98% of the Js flying today. So... make a list of what is most important to you but do not close your mind re model - C,E,F,J - a great many Mooneys have been upgraded meaning there's a great deal of overlap and you'll want to consider the merits of each individual airplane which will be more important than what the plane was like out the factory door. (If you're not in a rush, I'm an old man, who knows when Nancy will be putting my E on the market.)

It's bare metal, but I'm not sure I'd call it polished.