End of VFR?

[carusoam]

You will be able to see the tide changing....

When the president of AOPA goes from a high-end businessman, flying turbine equipment, to an ordinary middle aged guy, typical of the NRA.

We'll have slogans spoken by popular actors like "you can have my yoke, when you pry it from my cold, dead hands"

Politics is a challenging field of work.

The city I grew up near, used to post the number of people killed by violence each day on the evening news, with a total for the year. NYC's number was 3X the city I lived near.

The scale of people killed each year by violence was related to the scale of unemployment.

So if governments want to focus on something basicly important to the people. Help keep the people employed and educated. Then leave them free to fly...

When a major US city is losing hundreds of people to violent crime each year, it makes restricting flying seem like a loss of focus.

Stay the course,

-a-

[DaV8or]

If VFR flight was eliminated, it would crush the ATC system.

 

Might be part of the plan. If the ATC system is suddenly over loaded, they would have to hire more people and install more equipment. This would cost a lot of money, money they could recoup with... you guessed it... user fees. Finally, all airplanes safely flying on government approved flight plans, the little guys paying their share and new job creation. How great is that! Win, win, win, right?

 

Sadly, this would actually make good sense to a politician, or even the general public. <banghead>

[N201MKTurbo]

I'm sure you have all had this conversation.

 

When the subject of flying my own plane comes up in a conversation, people ask how much notice I have to give the government before I fly my plane. When I rhetorically ask how much notice they have to give the government before they drive their car, they look at me like I'm an idiot.

 

When I say "none" they are astonished.

 

Most people already think the government controls every motion we make with an airplane. It would be easy to sell this concept to the general public for a politician trying to make a name for his self. After all, the non flying public outnumbers us 1000 to 1.

 

The only thing saving us is the fact that most politicians, deep down, are pretty reasonable people.

 

Or maybe we are all screwed.

[yvesg]

I'm sure you have all had this conversation.

 

When the subject of flying my own plane comes up in a conversation, people ask how much notice I have to give the government before I fly my plane. When I rhetorically ask how much notice they have to give the government before they drive their car, they look at me like I'm an idiot.

 

When I say "none" they are astonished.

 

Most people already think the government controls every motion we make with an airplane. It would be easy to sell this concept to the general public for a politician trying to make a name for his self. After all, the non flying public outnumbers us 1000 to 1.

 

The only thing saving us is the fact that most politicians, deep down, are pretty reasonable people.

 

Or maybe we are all screwed.

You are quite rigth. I was having this conversation YESTERDAY with a co-worker. I guess this comes from the fact that all know airlines do need clearances to go up....with a tower and so on... Most people don't know the details around small airports.

Yves

[Marauder]

My reply is this "do you need to notify the police when you get on the road in your car? Your 4000 pound Missle is heavier than my 2740 one..."

[benpilot]

 

I am highly skeptical that VFR will be ended. Then again the buffoons running the executive branch and Congress are dumb enough to try such a thing.

[aviatoreb]

You are quite rigth. I was having this conversation YESTERDAY with a co-worker. I guess this comes from the fact that all know airlines do need clearances to go up....with a tower and so on... Most people don't know the details around small airports.

Yves

 

Yes - and i have had that conversation many times too.  Sometimes I do not bother saying that I can fly without a clearance, but instead answer the question of how much time ahead of time I need to file a clearance (when I need one).  We live in  a small town with a rural airport and they wonder how the clearance system works... I just roll with the conversation I show them my iphone and I show them my ap-for-that to file a clearance and how I pick it up on the ground with a phone in bad weather or in the air by radio in better weather.

 

Many people don't know our airport is even there - even though it is 1.5 miles from my house or 1 mile from the center of our village of 12,000 people.  Many people are surprised and horrified it seems to learn that our little airport has no tower (but airnav shows 114 flights per week).  So I explain how that works.  I talk about the medical lift helicopter and the ups airplane that work out of there daily - how the police, homeland security (we are ~10 mi from the border), and parents dropping kids at the colleges, ...yadayadayada...  I chair the airport committee so spread information and good will!

 

I agree loosing VFR entirely or so many regulations that VFR looks nothing like it does today is a constant and real danger - but deep down inside I think it will continue.

[Greg]

Might be part of the plan. If the ATC system is suddenly over loaded, they would have to hire more people and install more equipment. This would cost a lot of money, money they could recoup with... you guessed it... user fees. Finally, all airplanes safely flying on government approved flight plans, the little guys paying their share and new job creation. How great is that! Win, win, win, right?

 

Sadly, this would actually make good sense to a politician, or even the general public. <banghead>

I think you are very perceptive.  We have watched this government do it all by circumvention.  

[Greg]

And just how long do you sit and wait for an IFR clearance to take off when there just aren't enough people to man the system.  Oh, by the way, have you ever heard of structured fee schedules?  The extra $20 will get you a clearance within 10 minutes.  Are you a commercial flight, business, or pleasure?  It will be competition based;  Ultralite, Experimental, ELSA, SLSA, 4 place piston, turbine private, turbine commercial, jet private, jet commercial, who will go first and who will go sit.  The bottom line is it's all political and the only way to keep your privileges is to be political and recruit, recruit, recruit.  Every government program I've ever been mixed up in has the same odor and I am really tired of kissing bureaucrats.

[John Pleisse]

Deleted.

 

 

Restraint...unbridled. Still have the keys to the thread lock?

[aviatoreb]

Restraint...unbridled. Still have the keys to the thread lock?

 

N4352H - if you have something to say about the topic which was the future of VFR - even if I don't like the stated opinion - political, aviation, or otherwise, then fine and by all means, then please say it.  That is free speech.  

If you just want to poke your finger in someone's eye, then please, show some restraint and don't do it for us all to watch this behavior of picking a personal fight.  Are you still aching about some argument like 3 or 4 threads ago?  Please stop attacking, and most of all, it reflects on you, not the person you are attacking.  But especially please stop using this, our public mooneyspace forum, to do so.  

[flyboy0681]

A couple of years ago I responded here to the massive amount of outrage of the "impending" user fees that were coming down the pike within months. At that time I urged my fellow posters to take a deep breath because it wasn't going to happen anytime soon. I urge you to do the same in this case as well.

[fantom]

I urge you to do the same in this case as well.

 

.....you just better not still be 'fine turing' your instrument skills, without the IRF ticket, before it happens!

 

I'm guessing 50/50

[flyboy0681]

 

 

I'm guessing 50/50

 

You really believe that? That 5-10 years from now we will be talking here about the good old days of when we were allowed the ability to hop in our planes on a moments notice and fly just about anywhere we wanted without (relative) restraint and without an IFR flight plan?

 

I don't think so, at least not in my lifetime. 

[fantom]

You really believe that?

 

 

 

 

50/50 you get your instrument ticket before VFR goes away, NOT 50/50 that VFR goes away. Seems your keying response time is faster than your instrument flying response time.....

[flyboy0681]

 

50/50 you get your instrument ticket before VFR goes away, NOT 50/50 that VFR goes away. Seems your keying response time is faster than your instrument flying response time.....

 

 

Please accept my apologies. Your 50/50 response fit in perfectly with some of the responses here on the subject matter. There are a lot out there that feel the days of VFR flight is numbered.

 

As for the fine tuning, the PTS is now my bible and what it says goes. There are areas where my skills are not quite up to the PTS standards and that's what I'm concentrating on.

[fantom]

There are areas where my skills are not quite up to the PTS standards and that's what I'm concentrating on.

 

Good man, Mike!

 

Of course by those standards, about 80% of all instrument rated pilots would be found lacking. Some of your 'fine tuning' will come after you get your ticket.....whenever that happens. Say, how much are you paying your partner/instructor anyway?

[flyboy0681]

Of course by those standards, about 80% of all instrument rated pilots would be found lacking.

 

This remark happens to be 100% correct, based upon flights that I have taken with instrument rated pilots on IFR flight plans. 

 

When you have some time maybe we can go up and work on a few things.

[201er]

^ I'm curious what major issues you find most common? I feel I may well have forgotten some book stuff that was required for the test, but on the other hand have become much more adept at real world IFR flying that they don't teach you for the test.

[Marauder]

^ I'm curious what major issues you find most common? I feel I may well have forgotten some book stuff that was required for the test, but on the other hand have become much more adept at real world IFR flying that they don't teach you for the test.

[flyboy0681]

^ I'm curious what major issues you find most common? I feel I may well have forgotten some book stuff that was required for the test, but on the other hand have become much more adept at real world IFR flying that they don't teach you for the test.

[201er]

These friends don't happen to fly 777s do they?

[DaV8or]

From what I have experienced with several friends in a variety of aircraft, simply keeping the heading within +-10 degree and altitude +-100 feet at all times are the most common, when flying by hand that is. When things got busy the numbers increased greatly, twice to the point where the controller made an inquiry. Other areas that I have seen in actual conditions were sloppy localizer intercepts (I think due to workload) and some really messy practice holds.

 

Welcome to the real world of private pilot flying. Not many have the time and money to constantly train for the check ride forever. Professional pilots get paid to hone their skills all the time. Recreational pilots... well, not so much. It's a fact of flying that if you're flying once a week and only logging an hour, or two at a time, your skills are not going to be on par with yourself when you were training and practicing for the check ride.

 

This is why they invented the auto pilot. Single pilot IMC flying in busy airspace is a serious work load. Hand flying in IMC is bull crap. If you have it, use the A/P. Think about it, airline pilots have an auto pilot and a whole other certificated, qualified pilot to help with the chores. No shame in using your resources.

 

IMO, if your are hand flying in IMC and you do bust your altitude, or heading, there is no shame in that either per say, it is the reaction and the time that elapses before action that really matters.

[benpilot]

 

VFR flying is the real joy of why I got into flying in the very first place to view the gorgeous scenery we have in northern California. Everytime I fly over the coast, it is peaceful and amazing. 

[jetdriven]

Like why the hemispherical rule means nothing...

Its actually a suggestion, not a rule. But a pretty good suggestion.