Replacing my starter - what to buy?

[bd32322]

I think my starter is nearing the end of its life. I was thinking of the skytec 149 NL. Is that the correct model for the A3B6D? The skytec guide suggests that model, but its careful to remind me that its only a suggestion and the real model required could vary.

Any other brands that I should also consider?

Thanks

[fantom]

Yes....14 or 28 volts. I don't think so.

[Lood]

I had a Skytec which is well worth it, but for some unknown reason, mine only lasted about two years. Strange enough, the bolts holding it together came loose, somehow and it was damaged as a result.

During my engine overhaul last year, it was recommended that I install a B&C starter. It's only a year old now and it is really powerful - no complaints. FWIW, all new GA airplanes from Beech come with B&C starters as standard.

[bd32322]

I had a Skytec which is well worth it, but for some unknown reason, mine only lasted about two years. Strange enough, the bolts holding it together came loose, somehow and it was damaged as a result.

During my engine overhaul last year, it was recommended that I install a B&C starter. It's only a year old now and it is really powerful - no complaints. FWIW, all new GA airplanes from Beech come with B&C starters as standard.

I had the same problem on my current Kelly starter and damaged it the same way.

Thanks for the replies

[PTK]

I had a Skytec which is well worth it, but for some unknown reason, mine only lasted about two years. Strange enough, the bolts holding it together came loose, somehow and it was damaged as a result.

Hmm! This doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy inside! We just celebrated our 2 year anniversary with my lovely Skytec! She's a beauty too. Obsessed about her weight with lots of stamina. Spins hard and fast! She's not going to leave me so soon high and dry is she?!

Interestingly enough when my A&P installed one a couple years back it failed the very first time I went to start the plane. Skytec quickly replaced it of course. Never had a problem since. I love my Skytec and the 9 or so pounds useful.

[fantom]

Hmm! This doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy inside!

[wiseng]

I have had a Skytec starter for 7 years and never a problem.  Spins fast and has never let me down.  I wonder why the B&C is ~ $150 more than the Skytec per Spruce??

[bumper]

I've heard there can be a problem with the Skytec and its ilk . . . the really fast cranking starters. Problem is that they crank fast enough for the impulse coupling dis-engage fly-weights to do their thing and allow spark advance before the engine first fires. When it does fire advanced, the resulting kick back subjects the starter and mount to loads it was not designed for and bad things happen.

 

Some of my Husky A1-B friends have been switching to the Hartzell E-drive for this reason. It has a torque limiting clutch to prevent the possibility of kick back damage.

 

No experience with it, still using the SkyTech on my planes with no issues - - so far. But the Hartzell seems a good solution (assuming they don't get bored and condemn the hub :c(

 

bumper

[wiseng]

Found this on the Sky Tec page.  FYI

 

http://www.skytecair.com/Too_Fast.htm

[carusoam]

That's an interesting lesson from sky-tec...

Best regards,

-a-

[bumper]

According to sac sky ranch, high speed starters may be an issue. While SkyTec's debunk piece talks about  400 rpm for impulse coupling disengage, this may not always be the case. Couple high speed starters with AGM batteries (low internal resistance) and light weight props that accelerate as each cylinder goes past TDC - does that acceleration fling the fly weights out even though average rpm may be below 400? In any case I'm not so sure SkyTec is right . . . there have been quite a few failures, could there be that many mis-wired P-leads on starter switches?

 

http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng16.htm

[bd32322]

Reading the two articles, for and against fast cranking starters, i'll have to say the skytec article talks more sense, although it is coming fom the manufacturer. Key thing seems to be ... If the starter can really crank past impulse coupler deactivation speed of 400 rpm, why need the impulse coupler to retard the timing? Just fire at the same 25 BTDC as normal operation.

The other thing I do not understand with this kickback idea is that as the cranking speeds are increased the chance of a kickback is diminished. In the worst case, say your timing during starting is not retarded, so the magnetos fire 25 degrees before TDC. Because of the slow canking speeds, it will take a lot of TIME to cover those 25 degrees of crank angle. So the cylinder will combust and reach peak pressure before TDC. Keep increasing starter cranking speed and the piston will take less time to cover that 25 degrees of crank angle. It still takes the same amount of time for the cylinder to combust and develop peak pressure. But because of high crank speed, by the time peak pressures are reached, the piston is past TDC which is what we want.

In the best case, you have cruise RPM, so the faster the rpm, the less chance of kickback.

Note that this is an example, 25 degree timing is too advanced for starting speeds ... But I was just giving example numbers to show that increasing crank speed should decrease chances of kickback.

The non-skytec article seems to be saying the opposite ... So I am not 100% sure I am right, but so far skytec makes sense to me.

[bd32322]

I would go with the 149NL. If you currently have the OEM MZ4222 installed, it'll knock a little over NINE pounds off of your empty weight, too. Just let the thing cool down between extended cranking sessions and they have a great reputation. I have a freshly factory remanufactured 149NL with full factory warranty "new in the box" that I will sell you for $385 including shipping if you are interested.

Jim

Thanks Jim. Since the new one is only 40 more I'll go for the new one. Plus I am getting a bunch of other things from spruce, so I'll have to pay shipping anyway.

Sorry!

[bd32322]

Will report back on the installation issues. Mechanic thinks 3 hours. Am opening up everything during annual this week.

[Riq]

Out of curiosity I checked my bill from 6 months ago to change out my starter.

 

At Professional air service in Ft Collins CO I was charged 8hrs to change my starter from stock to skytec, and another 1.5 for the oil change.

[bumper]

Disclaimer: I'm not a Hartzell fan. I have two aircraft with Sky Tec starters and no problems so far.

 

That said, if I was replacing a starter today I'd go with Hartzell (ne Kelly). Do a search on <Sky Tec vs Hartzell>, or <Sk Tec problems> there's a lot out there. Cost is essentially the same, Hatzell costing a little less than Sky tec. You get less current draw, more robust duty cyle, lower cranking speed, the same weight, and no risk of kickback damage. Does Hartzell have any downside I'm not aware of?

[jetdriven]

We put on a set of their mags, one failed 5 hours later, at night, over Appalachicola FL.

[Lood]

Guys, Skytec is indeed a very good starter and you can't go wrong with it. My personal case is the only one I know of and I haven't heard of anybody else that have encountered any problems with the Skytec.

B&C was recommended to me and I decided to try it out. In practice, these two starters are probably very close to the same thing.

[bd32322]

Out of curiosity I checked my bill from 6 months ago to change out my starter.

At Professional air service in Ft Collins CO I was charged 8hrs to change my starter from stock to skytec, and another 1.5 for the oil change.

1.5 hours for an oil change ! Once you fly or run up and get the engine hot, it takes me (inexperienced) about 30 minutes or less for changing the filter and safetying it. Unless you want to pull the metal screen in the engine innards - thats another 30 minutes.

Thankfully I have two mechanic shops on my field and they compete with each other So I get reasonable quotes from them.

I flew from fort collins loveland airport btw, in the flight school's LSAs. Very awesome airport and place and in my opinion surprisingly good seafood compared to Boston! Who would have thought!

[Alan Fox]

Just to Clarify , Skytec is the O.E. starter for Lycoming.....Its not aftermarket , requires no STC , and it KICKS ASS .......If it breaks they will replace it for free......It is the starter equivilent of a Concorde battery......

[jetdriven]

Out of curiosity I checked my bill from 6 months ago to change out my starter.

 

At Professional air service in Ft Collins CO I was charged 8hrs to change my starter from stock to skytec, and another 1.5 for the oil change.

 

I prefer dinner and drinks before I get screwed.

[Riq]

1.5 hours for an oil change !

Especially when it was already opened up! Almost 1amu for that experience. They must not have liked that I provided the starter and oil.

 

That might be standard practice/flat rate, as ive had only a few shop oil changes, and they always seem to charge 1.5hrs, whether its my cherokee or mooney, owner assist or not.

 

Yeah, I can usu. have the cowl off, oil drained and turbo filter off in .5 hrs. Soak filter overnight and back together in .5.  I figured as long as they had it all apart, and my baby was probably sick of my amateur hands on her.

 

My east coaster wife would loudly disagree about the seafood comment.

 

Side note, There was a noticeable difference on takeoff with the reduced weight up front; she wanted to skip into the air before she was ready, necessitating a little change in takeoff trim. 

[Riq]

I prefer dinner and drinks before I get screwed.

I had a slight feeling, and not the good kind I get after dinner and drinks.

 

Now that I think about it, whats the situation with the weight and balance?  It made a change.  Is it up to me to amend the w&b sheet?(as they did nothing about it.)

[jetdriven]

An A&P must make the legal entry, but you can bring the docs to him and have him sign. We changed ours 4 times the first year. ....

[bumper]

Kelly has (or perhaps had) a terrible reputation last I heard.  But perhaps that is changing?

 

Jim

 

Jim,

 

Agreed.

 

When searching starter problems, be it Sky Tec, Kelly (now Hartzell), or whatever, there's enough love and hate to spread around evenly or othewise. To be expected things will go TU now and then, that's life. But it's rude when, due to design, failure takes out other expensive stuff too. And the stories of SkyTec "kickback" failure often involve collateral damage.

 

Jury is out on Hartzell. They are getting converts on the Husky list as incidence of Sky Tec failures may be exascerbated by the popularity of the MT props on Huskys (a veritable tidal wave of MT installs due to significant advantages over the heavier metal props on the dog).