Minimum Cloud Ceiling to Launch VFR for Aerial IFR Pick Up (poll)

[201er]

With an indefinite/infinite delay to get an IFR clearance on the ground, what is the lowest cloud ceiling (with no restrictions to visibility) you would takeoff off with VFR to pick up IFR in the air? Assuming mild but not perfectly flat terrain, no other weather factors. So, understandably with more factors this number may be higher. But, with optimal conditions what is the lowest ceiling you’d ever consider taking off for the purpose of becoming IFR in the air?

Edited November 12 by 201er

[Skates97]

For me it would depend on if the entire flight could be conducted under the overcast layer. So perhaps I would like to climb up through it but I could fly along under it with sufficient ground clearance. I'm not going to launch knowing that I must be able to pick up my clearance by xxx altitude or within xxx miles of the airport.

[MatthiasArnold]

I personally would choose something between 800 - 1000ft (the windmill power stations are getting higher an higher), but over here in Germany you have to stay in VMC until reaching at least MRVA (which is not officially documented, depends on time of the year (higher in winter) and, to my personal experience, on the ATC controller). 
My home base EDKA has now IFR procedures- so it can be challenging to depart or approach from/to IFR flights. 
A legal option is to commence cloud breaking procedures at an airport with IFR procedures and than try to proceed VFR.. Or, for IFR departure, somehow find your way to an airport with IFR procedures in VFR and commence on an IFR departure with an IFR pick up over a runway. You have to coordinate with the airport controller beforehand (via phone) and there are not many airports which are willing to do so .. filing a flight plan beforehand is a must have anyway..

Long story short, although I would pick 800ft, the typical minimum ceiling in Germany for a legal IFR pickup (and cancellation) is typically in the 2000ft AGL range.

[Paul Thomas]

I picked 2,000 to answer but it depends on how far I'm going/can get before I need the IFR clearance and the how solid that layer is. I do not like flying close to the clouds VFR; too many people are flying in the could without a clearance. I'm not going to launch if the weather may become an issue before I have a clearance. I don't mind getting closer to my destination get a clearance in the air, or go for enough that I can get one on the ground elsewhere, as long as I have VFR landing options along the way but the truth is, I'm not a fan of flying lower than 3,000.

I've waited 30 minutes for a release on a nice day with no idea how long it would take (The controller was trying to get me going, even involved a supervisor and kept me apprised).

[Ragsf15e]

Sometimes the minimum radio reception altitude is an issue as well and you don’t always know what it is.

[Vance Harral]

I picked 2000' AGL.  I'm not leaving the ground without an IFR clearance unless I'm comfortable I can maintain VFR indefinitely, there are too many unknowns.  In particular, whatever congestion or problem is causing the delay getting a release from the ground is likely to be an issue getting a clearance in the air too, and then you may be dealing with a pissed off controller who doesn't appreciate you "skipping the line" .

[MikeOH]

2 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

I'm not leaving the ground without an IFR clearance unless I'm comfortable I can maintain VFR indefinitely

^^^ THIS ^^^

[dkkim73]

2 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Sometimes the minimum radio reception altitude is an issue as well and you don’t always know what it is.

That's a big deal for me. E.g. new home drome is covered by ZLC (Salt Lake Center) much of the time, with MRA often up near 8-9k, and sometimes Spokane Approach (which can be reached on the ground from some points on the airport). Also given the high MIA (minimum vectoring altitude) a lot of times I need to be flying a DP anyway since they usually won't turn me. Sometimes I'll get "can you maintain your own terrain and obstacle clearance to 11K?". 

In flatsville with known reception (Puget Sound?) I suppose I might pick 3000'or something for basic VFR, or 1000' if I'm in a wide open area. 

[201er]

For me, the lowest I would consider is 1500ft ceiling so I could fly a normal traffic pattern under VFR. Also, I need at least 1000ft of ground clearance (inevitably there may be a congested town near an airport) and around most airports, class E goes down to 700, so in order to fly at 1000ft, clouds can’t be below 1500. So, at a minimum, I’d like to be able to circle the airport by a few miles at 1000 AGL to try to pick up IFR, and if the clearance cannot be obtained, return for a normal VFR landing.

[takair]

I picked 2000, but depends on airport and direction.  Over the coast, I might pick lower if I could pick up ATC.  Going north of here, the terrain rises to meet you and ATC gets spotty.

[McMooney]

i'm not launching if i can't fly it VFR,  trying to force the issue by being in the air instead of picking it up on the ground, doesn't sound like a good plan

[Immelman]

_{There is no one size fits all answer here, it depends on the terrain, obstacles, and visibility, and does the weather change in a particular direction? Better? Worse? What is a safe ceiling in one environment may not be in many others. Be ready to safely go VFR for a ways.} 

Edited November 13 by Immelman

[kortopates]

Out west in my airspace where terrain abounds we’ve had numerous fatal accidents from departing VFR expecting to pick up an IFR. To me it’s not worth the risks and stress, plus we have excellent service such that a long delay is very rare. Yet Accidents are very common doing this at night while also failing to fly an ODP.
i’ve seen a number of folks get into trouble because they thought they had enough altitude under a ceiling to be safe to depart but failed to consider the MVA and had no clue that the MVA was above the ceiling. Best to get your clearance on the ground and climb up on an ODP safely if you’re going to need an IFR.


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[Utah20Gflyer]

In Utah the terrain is quite high and you’ll likely reach it before you get out of the Salt lake approach area.  So it doesn’t make sense to launch without being able to clear terrain VFR.  Although SL approach can get very busy sometimes I’ve never not been able to get a clearance in a reasonable amount of time.  This is probably because I’m based out of the KTVY which has a departure procedure that doesn’t conflict with KSLC arrivals or departures.  I understand this isn’t the case for KSVR which does conflict and KBTF which you can’t get an IFR departure from.   If I flew out of one of those two airports I wouldn’t want clouds lower than 5000-6000 AGL.   
 

If I flew on the east coast I might consider much lower but I don’t have any experience flying in that area.  What I would accept if I found myself there would depend on terrain and airspace considerations on a case by case basis.  

[Marc_B]

For me this is a very unclear poll question.  If I'm departing VFR, I'm doing so expecting to maintain VFR.  If I have a ceiling that I need to punch through then I depart on an instrument flight plan.

BUT, I've departed VFR with an IFR flight plan filed in case I needed it in the air depending on my destination.  But in that case I'm expecting VFR and will continue to fly VFR with flight following unless I need instrument flight plan.  I've also picked up pop up IFR in those cases as well when the weather unexpectedly changed requiring IFR plan but still safe to complete.

Departing VFR only to scud run while trying to pick up an IFR plan seems like a rather horrible idea...if you're instrument rated, why would you think that's a good idea?  If you're not instrument rated, the stats speak for themselves...VFR flight into IMC is one of the leading aviation killers.

[dkkim73]

A good use of a VFR departure is with one in, one out type situations, esp. if routing is via a shared nav point with another airport. You avoid ATC's having to protect the airspace. Sometimes they even hint or seem to want that when calling for clearance. 

BUT this assumes you can reasonably do VFR indefinitely, return to origin etc. This is where the MVA/MIA comes into play. 

 

[laytonl]

For me it’s 2000’ because that’s the altitude where radio reception is sufficient to pick up the clearance.  With Less than 2,000’, I have to do the phone call routine.  Lee

[N201MKTurbo]

This is kind of a silly question. There are so many terrain, weather and airspace considerations, giving an answer that covers all situations cannot be done.

[201er]

9 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

This is kind of a silly question. There are so many terrain, weather and airspace considerations, giving an answer that covers all situations cannot be done.

 

On 11/12/2025 at 1:42 PM, 201er said:

So, understandably with more factors this number may be higher. But, with optimal conditions what is the lowest ceiling you’d ever consider taking off...

The question is to establish what ceiling would you refuse to launch into even under the most favorable "other considerations". It is understood that it may be higher but not lower depending on other factors.

[201er]

19 hours ago, Marc_B said:

Departing VFR only to scud run while trying to pick up an IFR plan seems like a rather horrible idea...if you're instrument rated, why would you think that's a good idea?

You obviously haven't flown in truly busy airspace. 

 

How come "Would cancel flight before launching VFR for IFR pick up" option got zero votes? It's a valid answer for anyone of this opinion.

[N201MKTurbo]

It is interesting that two people choose ceilings less than 1000 feet. There are not many options for flying VFR with less than 1000 foot ceilings. 
 

If you are going to do this, you have to be prepared to actually fly around for an unspecified time until you get a clearance. I would never take off VFR if there were IFR conditions at the departure airport and I could get a clearance on the ground. If it was solid VFR at the departure, I would have no problem picking up the clearance in the air. 
 

Around here, departing VFR will usually save you some time. They give you some goofy routing when IFR to get you out of the class B. But, last time I departed IFR, there were low clouds and thunderstorms in the area, Phoenix TRACON was very good to me.

[Ibra]

Down here in controlled airspace, we need 1500ft ceiling (and 5km visibility) to depart VFR and pick IFR in controlled airports with CTR

In TMA, you need ceiling higher than radar altitude (MRVA) or airway altitude (MEA) to pick IFR, especially with Charlie and Alpha airspace (Delta & Echo airspace, ATC allow you to separate visual on IFR climb, however, many countries prohibit visual separation under IFR bellow MRVA).

ATC are reluctant to offer SVFR departure in airport CTR and IFR pickup in area TMA as it require teleportation inside clouds and blocks airport capacity. They prefer that you pretend to be VFR when it comes to finding holes inside clouds, however, you need 5km visibility for controlled VFR flights ! 

In uncontrolled airspace (Golf) when flying sub-140kts machine, you only need 1500m and 10ft ceiling to depart VFR and pick IFR, there is no requirement for ATC clearance to fly in clouds in uncontrolled airspace (just like FAR actually), however, you need clearance to join aairspace and controlled may insist on "VFR join initially", especially from under his radar altitude while not being on published departure. In aircraft with 140kts, you are back to 1500ft ceiling and 5km visibility for VFR departure.

The uncontrolled departure may not be relevant in US as Echo airspace starts at 1200ft and down to 700ft near airports. I also understand 140kts limitation is not implemented in US (altough I recall Type Rated aircraft have limitations, at least for VMC/VFR circling)

Sorry I am quoting visibility is in metric system, don't shoot me down 

Sometimes in Europe, the legal pick up depends on ATC procedures, I was told to maintain VFR at 12000ft where the airway started (we were laughing as we were in clouds from 400ft all the way until 11500ft, pure luck).

I think 1500ft is a reasonable number, controlled IFR is not supposed to be more restrictive than controlled VFR flight.

Edited November 14 by Ibra

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It is interesting that two people choose ceilings less than 1000 feet. There are not many options for flying VFR with less than 1000 foot ceilings. 
 

If you are going to do this, you have to be prepared to actually fly around for an unspecified time until you get a clearance. I would never take off VFR if there were IFR conditions at the departure airport and I could get a clearance on the ground. If it was solid VFR at the departure, I would have no problem picking up the clearance in the air. 
 

Around here, departing VFR will usually save you some time. They give you some goofy routing when IFR to get you out of the class B. But, last time I departed IFR, there were low clouds and thunderstorms in the area, Phoenix TRACON was very good to me.

I have left Mesa-Gateway a number of times VFR for that very reason knowing it's likely I would need to be IFR to get into the LA Basin. I will have an IFR plan on file from Blythe to Fullerton and pick up my clearance from Center when I get to Blythe. If for some reason Center is so busy that I can't pick up a clearance in the next 170+ miles I can always stop short of Fullerton. Hasn't happened yet. 

[Ibra]

One curious question, do ATC in US allow SVFR departure with tower ATC followed by IFR pickup from area ATC? say daylight flight and one has the required +1sm visibility in Delta, Charlie, or Bravo airport

Assuming the ceiling is broken with plenty of holes, can one climb straight away into Delta, Charlie, Bravo? or they have to leave airport zone “laterally” with SVFR scud run (follow roads under ceiling) before climbing into General Echo airspace?

Asking for a friend 

Edited November 14 by Ibra

[Ibra]

On 11/13/2025 at 8:07 PM, dkkim73 said:

BUT this assumes you can reasonably do VFR indefinitely, return to origin etc. This is where the MVA/MIA comes into play. 

Does one have access to MVA/MIA enroute charts when planning?my understanding few ATC publish them (like en-route frequencies they depends on staffing, coverage, sectors organisations…)

Near big airports one has terminal vectoring charts but further away one can assume that at 2000ft agl they are blipping on some radar screen with radio sightline to some low airway base  

Edited November 14 by Ibra