Retract Gear or Flaps First in a Go Around ?

[donkaye, MCFI]

Due to the significant pitch up when flaps are retracted in Mooneys, especially the long body Mooneys, I have taught to retract the gear 1st, trim down, then retract the flaps when going around.  I always taught the student that the drag of both were comparable.  While most POHs say retract the flaps 1st, in this case I think safety is more important in my opinion than an incorrectly written POH.  Finally, in the Acclaim Type S the POH does have the gear being retracted before the flaps in a go around.

I recently saw a YouTube video of a recent test conducted in a Bonanza on the given topic.  For the Bonanza the conclusion was that the flaps should be retracted first.  I decided to run the test on my airplane, a Bravo M20M.  At 4,500 feet I slowed the plane to a steady 105 knots ( 5 knots below maximum flap extension speed), engaged the autopilot in altitude hold mode and extended the gear.   The plane stabilized at 87 knots for a drag reduction of 18 knots.  I retracted the gear and returned to a stabilized 105 knots.  I then extended full flaps and waited see where the airspeed would stabilize.  It stabilized at---87 knots, the same as with the gear extended.

Demonstrated conclusion:  Confirming my earlier statement, for safety reasons, the gear should be retracted while trimming down before the flaps are retracted in a Mooney go around.

[N201MKTurbo]

My experence is retracting the flaps will reduce lift and the airplane will dip a bit. This isn’t something I want during a go around. Especially close to the ground. 
 

I don’t touch the gear or flaps until I have a positive rate of climb and have climbed at least 100 feet. That usually isn’t a problem, by the time I’m done messing with the power and trim, the plane is already climbing and I can do the flaps and gear at my leisure. Another reason to do the flaps first, is that is where your hand is, right by the flap switch. Move your hand from the throttle to the flap switch and then up to the gear.

[Hank]

I'm also in the gear first camp. I treat it just like a takeoff--power up, verify positive rate, gear up; when I'm looking down at the obstacles, flaps up.

[Pinecone]

Good to know that the drag is the same.

I am a gear then flaps guy.  Up or down.

[varlajo]

Yeah, same here, gear then flaps.

[EricJ]

On a go-around all the gear is doing is adding drag.   The flaps decrease the stall speed and add some lift.   So, yeah, gear first on takeoff, go-around, or landing.   

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, donkaye, MCFI said:

Due to the significant pitch up when flaps are retracted in Mooneys, especially the long body Mooneys, I have taught to retract the gear 1st, trim down, then retract the flaps when going around.  I always taught the student that the drag of both were comparable.  While most POHs say retract the flaps 1st, in this case I think safety is more important in my opinion than an incorrectly written POH.  Finally, in the Acclaim Type S the POH does have the gear being retracted before the flaps in a go around.

I recently saw a YouTube video of a recent test conducted in a Bonanza on the given topic.  For the Bonanza the conclusion was that the flaps should be retracted first.  I decided to run the test on my airplane, a Bravo M20M.  At 4,500 feet I slowed the plane to a steady 105 knots ( 5 knots below maximum flap extension speed), engaged the autopilot in altitude hold mode and extended the gear.   The plane stabilized at 87 knots for a drag reduction of 18 knots.  I retracted the gear and returned to a stabilized 105 knots.  I then extended full flaps and waited see where the airspeed would stabilize.  It stabilized at---87 knots, the same as with the gear extended.

Demonstrated conclusion:  Confirming my earlier statement, for safety reasons, the gear should be retracted while trimming down before the flaps are retracted in a Mooney go around.

Agreed

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I'm also in the gear first camp. I treat it just like a takeoff--power up, verify positive rate, gear up; when I'm looking down at the obstacles, flaps up.

I think this is a critical point. It is just like (and should be like) any other takeoff.

If you are forced into a "Go Around" situation, your mind is likely preoccupied on other distractions - weather, visibility, down to minimums (or you busted) on a difficult instrument approach, unexpected traffic conflict (or animals, cars or other planes on the runway) in untowered  airports, etc.  You should not need to think about how to "go around" - it should be muscle memory.  Gear then Flaps...Gear then Flaps. If you are in the clag then your eyes will be on the instruments to insure you are climbing on the right heading/attitude. KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.

Edited Wednesday at 06:16 PM by 1980Mooney

[Alan Maurer]

Very good discussion...Here is a question to add to the gear and flap order. Would it be reasonable to add enough  power to keep the airplane flying and lessen 

the brisk pitch up. maybe push yoke and trim first ......and avoid a stall??  can we add that to the mix?

Alan

Long body M20R

[EricJ]

A complication on a go-around for some is that you're already at flying speed when full power is applied, so it may require significant pitch-up to keep below gear transit speed.   On my airplane it is a bit of a dance, and if you get it wrong the gear breaker pops, which adds an unwelcome dimension to a go-around.   So getting the gear up asap makes sense, before the airplane accelerates past transit speed or before you have to pitch way up to keep it there.  It can help, and I've heard others here say they do this, too, to just apply about half throttle, get the gear up, then go to full throttle for the go-around.

However it works for you and your airplane, I think this just highlights why it's good to practice this stuff frequently enough to stay proficient.

[PT20J]

I repeated Don's experiment in my M20J MSE at 2500' and an initial speed of 100KIAS. Gear down reduced airspeed to 77 KIAS, flaps full down 78 KIAS, gear and flaps both 70 KIAS. So gear and flaps were approximately the same with a 23 KIAS reduction.

One of the issues with Mooneys is that the control forces can be higher than many other airplanes of similar size and weight. Sometimes you have to push or pull pretty hard to make the airplane go where you want it to go until you get it back in trim. There is nothing wrong with using two hands on the yoke if that's what it takes. 

If you check the stall speed table in the POH, you'll notice that Mooney flaps reduce stall speed more than most other comparable airplanes. But, most of the stall speed reduction comes from extending full flaps. The takeoff flap setting mainly changes the deck angle and adds a little drag.

[1980Mooney]

21 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I repeated Don's experiment in my M20J MSE at 2500' and an initial speed of 100KIAS. Gear down reduced airspeed to 77 KIAS, flaps full down 78 KIAS, gear and flaps both 70 KIAS. So gear and flaps were approximately the same with a 23 KIAS reduction.

One of the issues with Mooneys is that the control forces can be higher than many other airplanes of similar size and weight. Sometimes you have to push or pull pretty hard to make the airplane go where you want it to go until you get it back in trim. There is nothing wrong with using two hands on the yoke if that's what it takes. 

If you check the stall speed table in the POH, you'll notice that Mooney flaps reduce stall speed more than most other comparable airplanes. But, most of the stall speed reduction comes from extending full flaps. The takeoff flap setting mainly changes the deck angle and adds a little drag.

A good reason to not land with full flaps.  I use "take-off" or 15 degree flaps.  Gear-up, power up and I am good to go with about the same trim.  Then flaps up.  And trim.  Half flaps don't have the drag that you quote for full flaps.  It makes Touch and Go's a breeze.

[Ibra]

The part that is not intuitive is that retracting flaps at very slow speed does increase drag, something we can explain by plotting polar curves in clean and dirty configs. For illustration, retracting flaps fully at VS(clean) = stall = lot of drag and while in flap config at VS(clean) = flying = less drag. In the other hand, retracting gear always reduce drag.

So there is a some speed cutoff at play:

* If I am at 90kts, I would retract flaps first 

* If I am between VS(dirty) and VS(clean), I would retract gear first 

If my aim is to climb quick, I accelerate from VS0 to VY in ground effect, I tend to retract gear first between VS0 and VS1, then flaps once well above VS1.

I rarely climb at VX with takeoff flap but if I do, I tend to retract gear after liftoff and I do no touch flaps until 1) cleared of obstacle and 2) I accelerated sufficiently toward 90kts-100kts 

I think correlating “flaps” to “drag” is unhealthy, especially when one flies slow speeds near “drag curve” or “near stall”, at slow speeds flaps add lift and they reduce “induced drag” between VS0 and VS1.

To be honest, M20J flaps are not “that draggy”, if the aircraft fails to accelerate, it’s likely because pilot is using the whole wing as airbreak (pulling up at slow speeds between VS0 and VS1) rather than flaps? or flying in some high density altitude or some engine power problem? the gap between VS0 and VS1 is very wide in Mooney, one should not raise any flaps in middle of that large gap, they should concentrate on flying runway heading and accelerating in ground effect, this require gear up to reduce drag, accelerating above VS1, once well above VS1, retracting flaps tend to reduce drag…

Edited Wednesday at 10:06 PM by Ibra

[M20F]

I never go full flaps until committed to land and often I never go full flaps.  Half flaps is take off configuration for a F.  In a go around I am configured for maximum performance and than it is positive rate, gear, than flaps. 

[bluehighwayflyer]

5 hours ago, M20F said:

I never go full flaps until committed to land and often I never go full flaps.  Half flaps is take off configuration for a F.  In a go around I am configured for maximum performance and than it is positive rate, gear, than flaps. 

In over 40 years of flying Mooneys I don’t think I have ever landed with takeoff flaps, but this makes a lot of sense to me for the reasons you stated.  I’m go to play around with this.  Thanks.  

[MB65E]

M20’s I’ve landed with take off flaps quite a bit. It’s a shallow approach and I don’t really like it. It put you closer to the ground than I like.

While I would normally be in the camp of Flaps, Gear, flaps. The manual flap Mooney’s would be different than any other airplane. Ie…Flaps up “monitor” until they reach Takeoff, then reposition the valve to down to stop the retraction, then gear up and then finish the flap retraction. 
The added bonus of monitoring the flaps, adds a situation that might be better to do gear first.

Anyother airplane or jet should be flaps , gear, flaps. Falcon, like most aircraft, teaches to wait till positive rate for gear retraction. Gear adds stability during the go around and jets are sometimes slow to spool, I’m glad I had the gear down. 

I’m glad a stock Stearman gear is welded down. It’s the only airplane I’ve touched down in after I initiated a go around. Accept what’s infront! 
-Matt

[Jerry 5TJ]

My answer is—neither.  At go-around I prefer to teach “Pitch, Power, Positive Rate, and Pause.” Get stabilized and climbing smoothly before you start reconfiguring.  

[ttflyer]

As with many above, I land at Flaps 15 every time now. Not for this reason but because it puts the airplane in a slightly higher landing attitude which reduces the chance of landing flat or on the nose wheel first - a common Mooney landing issue. This one change in my technique made the biggest difference on making consistently excellent, smooth landings. 

Of course, there is the added benefit that go-arounds require only the application of full power and pitching up away from the ground. No fiddling with anything. I also open the cowl flaps after lowering the gear in the pattern specifically so I have nothing to do on the go-around except go around.  

As for the shallower approach angle argument, I find it more consistent with the jet aircraft I also fly and don't see any difference in my ability to make the runway if the engine fails. 

Edited Thursday at 12:20 PM by ttflyer

[McMooney]

these days i tend to land with only takeoff flaps, just got used to doing it that way during my IR so there isn't really a big change when i pull them up on the goaround.

as for the gear, on a go around, not missed, i leave them down.

[dkkim73]

16 hours ago, Ibra said:

I think correlating “flaps” to “drag” is unhealthy, especially when one flies slow speeds near “drag curve” or “near stall”, at slow speeds flaps add lift and they reduce “induced drag” between VS0 and VS1.

@Ibra very interesting, makes a lot of sense I think. I tend to fall into that mistake above. 

I think of the L/D curve and getting out of the draggy part. 

16 hours ago, Ibra said:

the gap between VS0 and VS1 is very wide in Mooney, one should not raise any flaps in middle of that large gap, they should concentrate on flying runway heading and accelerating in ground effect,

Is what you are saying, in some sense, that reconfiguring the flaps when slow (in this Vs0-Vs1 gap) essentially transposes you from one L/D curve to another where *you might not be where you think you are*? Ie. I am slow and low and at full (33 degrees), and I mistakenly think retracting to 10 would improve L/D, but what I'm actually doing is picking a different wing where I would actually be deeper into it, maybe even in the stall zone? 

I'm definitely in the camp of "fly through it", using ground effect if needed to bank some energy before doing too much. 

As for order, agree gear first *unless* 1. too low with sink rate or 2. it's unclear what's going on. What do I mean by #2? When I was first learning to handle the TSIO-550, I got into several situations where it would be fairly boggy, probably having been too rich on the approach and being asked to open up too quickly (I have some better techniques now, though honestly it is a bit sensitive at low power settings IMHO). So sometimes I would think to add power and it would be slow, or I'd think better of going around, and make it work with the landing (these were all higher-energy situations in retrospect). Nowadays, unless I'm committed to the climb out with enough energy (if low) or making a positive rate, I'll defer gear until one of those two things is true. This is sometimes fairly low to the ground. A salient point is that Vlo(going up) in the Acclaim S is 85 kts, so in normal takeoffs I'm itchy to get them up. 

Anyhow, this thread has reinforced to me Don's initial point of gear first being a reasonable starting point. And it's motivated me to build some more  experience with takeoff (10 degree) flap landings. 

[PT20J]

A lot of problems can be avoided by making the decision to go around early when there is still sufficient airspeed and altitude that technique isn't critical. If you have to go around during the flare it gets much more dicey.

For those interested, here are the aerodynamic coefficient curves for a M20K clean and full flaps that I got from a Mooney engineer many years ago. I don't have one for takeoff flaps.

M20K Aerodynamic Coef - Flaps 0.pdf

M20K Aerodynamic Coef - Flaps 33.pdf

[Jackk]

Depends on your flaps settings

What’s your balked landing in the POH/AFM say?

if I was dragging full flaps I wouldn’t want to do a max performance go around still dragging full flaps, I’d probably default to something around whatever your short field takeoff setting is for max lift.

Gear is easy, positive rate gear up 

 

As for pitch changes, don’t skip arm day, I have yet to meet a plane I can’t just push to where I want for as long as it takes to trim, and I don’t consider myself a pro arm wrestler or anything  

 

 For me it would be “go around, flaps XX” -> “positive rate gear up”

my flow would be easing back on the control while adding power and hitting the TOGA (one movement) -> flaps to go around setting -> once positive rate gear up

Edited Thursday at 02:58 PM by Jackk

[Ibra]

40 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

essentially transposes you from one L/D curve to another where *you might not be where you think you are*? Ie. I am slow and low and at full (33 degrees), and I mistakenly think retracting to 10 would improve L/D, but what I'm actually doing is picking a different wing where I would actually be deeper into it, maybe even in the stall zone?

Indeed, if you plot L/D curves with clean and with dirty flaps, you will see that there is a "critical speed" few kts above VS1 where both will intersect.

When one is flying straight and level in ground effect, Lift = Weight, the two drags at that "critical speed" are similar, this effect is very prononced for aircraft where VS1-VS0 spread is large. For aircraft, where VS1 = VS0, the effect is small, and there is no risk from retracting flaps once airborne.

Another way to think about it is the best L/D near VS0 and VS1 is obtained by using "takeoff flap setting".

Some STOL pilots with mechanical falps will do everything to optimise their use of flaps, they fly clean until VS0, full flap at liftoff near VS0 before retracting flaps when few kts above VS1, this won't work in Mooney with electrical flaps (I have not tried but I presume fiddling can make "50ft takeoff" in Mooney, 30ft shorter, so not worth it: set takeoff flaps and leave it there )

Edited Thursday at 03:01 PM by Ibra

[Jackk]

3 minutes ago, Ibra said:

Indeed, if you plot L/D curves with clean and with dirty flaps, you will see that there is a "critical speed" few kts above VS1 where both will intersect.

When one is flying straight and level in ground effect, Lift = Weight, the two drags at that "critical speed" are similar, this effect is very prononced for aircraft where VS1-VS0 spread is large. For aircraft, where VS1 = VS0, the effect is small, and there is no risk from retracting flaps once airborne.

Another way to think about it is the best L/D near VS0 and VS1 is obtained by using "takeoff flap setting".

Some STOL pilots with mechanical falps will do everything to optimise the use of flaps, they fly clean until VS0, full flap at liftoff near VS0 before retracting flaps when few kts above VS1, this won't work in Mooney will electrical flaps.

 The Mooney has more flap settings than just up or down no?

 

 I’d also imagine with full go around power you should be accelerating at a respectable rate

Edited Thursday at 03:01 PM by Jackk

[Ibra]

11 minutes ago, Jackk said:

The Mooney has more flap settings than just up or down no?

Indeed, I was merly comparing clean and full dirty settings, there is no middle sitting but ideally, 1/2 flaps is great in Mooney, not too draggy and has lot of extra lift. 

Even full-flaps are not draggy, the M20J screams in ground effect with full flaps all the way to VY, so I never felt the need to get them up quickly or die, I just lift the gear and bu the time it's "gear safe", I have 80kts-90kts and I pull flaps up.

 

I had someone retracting them at 55kts with 15deg climb after balked landing and go-around, he made my day, luckily the gear was always down as we bounced 2nd time (he balked landing and in 50ms, he put full power, 15deg up pitch and retracted flaps)

Edited Thursday at 03:12 PM by Ibra

[donkaye, MCFI]

 

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

A salient point is that Vlo(going up) in the Acclaim S is 85 kts, so in normal takeoffs I'm itchy to get them up. 

Vlo (going up) is 106 kts for the Acclaim Type S.